Hearts of IronIII: Their Finest Hour. Dev diary 2. Combat Tactics and Armour/Piercing

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Darkrenown

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It’s Thursday again, so that means it’s time for another TFH DD! This week I’ll be talking about two rather neat new features: Combat Tactics and Armour/Piercing.
Let’s look at Tactics first. When a battle starts now, the battle leader on both sides picks a Combat Tactic which gives his side certain bonuses. These are somewhat like the old Battle Events, but they are always active now, and a new Tactic is chosen by both sides every day of the battle. The choice of Tactic is affected by: Leader skill, Skill vs enemy skill, Units present, Techs, Frontage, Reserves, and whether it’s an offensive or defensive battle. Many Tactics also have a Counter-tactic that nullifies them, meaning they grant no bonus. In the example below you can see this has happened to the Soviet Ambush, the German’s have chosen Breakthrough, which counters Ambush and renders it useless. Leaders who out-skill their opponent s are more likely to Counter them.
Their Finest Hour DD2 tactics.png
For players who want to influence their leaders’ Tactical choices, we have added an Aggression slider to manually controlled units which acts to weigh their choices in the direction you set (In the case of AI controlled units this is handled by their Stance). You can set Aggression at any HQ level and your leaders will look to the nearest HQ above them in the chain of command to take their stance from them. You can simply set this that the Theatre level, or you can tweak every Corps HQ on the Eastern front if you so desire. You can even mix n match, for example you might set a Theatre that’s on the defensive to use cautious tactics, but set your counter-attacking Armoured Corps to high Aggression.
Their Finest Hour DD2 aggro.png
Higher Aggression settings will tend to make leaders pick higher risk Tactics which tend to win battles faster but take higher losses, while lower settings will make leaders use delaying tactics to draw out battles with minimal losses. Do keep in mind that this only weighs the choices of your leaders though, so you may find Rommel is still launching Blitzs even while set to low aggression.
Now for Armour/Piercing. All tank type brigades, and armoured cars, now have an Armour value, and all land combat brigades, plus a few support, now have an Armour Piercing value. Whenever an Armoured unit is in combat any unit attacking it must test their Piercing value against its Armour: If its Armour is higher the unit takes half damage from their attacks and does increased Org damage. If the Piercing value is equal or higher than the Armour then there is no effect and combat proceeds as normal. Both Armour and Piercing work by checking the best value in a division, it is not averaged. As a rough rule of thumb, at equal tech levels Light and Medium armour cannot be Pierced by Infantry, but will be by Anti-tank brigades, while Heavy armour will not be. Armoured cars, on the other hand, will not normally have any advantage over Infantry unless they have a couple of tech levels over them. This means there is now an arms race between Armour and Armour Piercing weapons, both between tanks and AT/tanks, and should make AT units more useful as well as offering some more advantages to Heavy and Super Heavy armour units.

That’s all for this week, but tune in next Thursday for news about the Operational mapmode, our new multiplayer Chat system, and Battle Scenarios.
 
Also by "attacking" the armored unit, does that mean when the defenders or attackers attack, or only for attackers? I.e. does it help armored units on both offense and defense? Just want to clear that up.

Superior armor vs enemy weapons means you take less damage, but it also replaces the old hard vs soft attack bonus letting you perform more attacks if your armor is strong enough.

Cool, Darkrenown. Question: How is the battle leader determined? Must he come from the fighting divisions
or can he also come from the superior HQs not directly involved in the battle?
I think the latter makes much more sense and is consistent with the fact that in 3.06 HQ leaders can gain
experience well without directly fighting. Otherwise you are forced to send HQs into the battle
just to get the right battle leader.

Tactics are based on the leaders directly in combat. We toyed with the idea of having one higher level decide it, but felt this would force the player into structuring armies a certain way so we didnt do that.

Ok, so if I am on full manual, I still can't directly pick the tactic? Can I set the aggression for individual battles, or do I have to track down the HQ of the commanding leader to set it there? And is there then an easy way to select the leaders HQ, like clicking his portrait in the battle view?

if you disengage your troops from all HQs you can't pick tactics. The HQs do not have to be ai controlled for you to be able to affect tactics though. Just click the HQ above. Note that this is just a way to influence tactics before battle. I don't foresee anyone wanting to change it during combat so there is no shortcuts inside the battle view itself. If you do change the slider it might affect it 24h later though.

No mention of air units having a Piercing value, so does this mean having a strong air force is vital to counter a strong tank force?

Air to land attacks are not affected by armor etc and work as before
 
What will armor serve for armored cars? Defending against militia or garrisons or cavalry? Or is it intended that someone will try to increase the armor of them tech rushing, and use them against infantry? Just curious on the philosophy behind it. I understand the historical context.

Also by "attacking" the armored unit, does that mean when the defenders or attackers attack, or only for attackers? I.e. does it help armored units on both offense and defense? Just want to clear that up.

AC armour is fairly token and mostly for bullying low tech nations, I wouldn't expect tech rushing them and using them as armour to be very effective.

Attacking = targetting in combat, doesn't matter what side they are on.

Good stuff !

However its been a long day for me and I am a bit confused by this

"Whenever an Armoured unit is in combat any unit attacking it must test their Piercing value against its Armour: If its Armour is higher the unit takes half damage from their attacks and does increased Org damage. If the Piercing value is equal or higher than the Armour then there is no effect and combat proceeds as normal. Both Armour and Piercing work by checking the best value in a division, it is not averaged."

Could you perhaps give an example?

Thanks

Quick made-up numbers:
Inf = 4 Piercing.
Arm = 5 Armour, 5 Piercing.
AT = 6 Piercing.

Arm attacks Inf, Arm's Armour is higher than Inf's Piercing, so Arm takes halved damage from all Inf's attacks while doing bonus Org damage to them.

Arm attacks Inf + AT, Arm's Armour is lower than AT's Piercing, so Arm takes normal damage and does normal Org damage.

How does this compare to the existing statistic of Hard Attack?

It's an additional system on top of it, the whole SA/HA vs Softness % is still present, but AP is an additional check. So in effect if you can't pierce their armour you SA is worth 1/4 while your HA is worth 1/2.
 
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Also, is the new combat events only for HQs under AI control? I'm assuming no, but wanted to confirm.

its for both AI control and otherwise
 
Will the Armor v. Piercing hopefully alleviate some of the more "gamey" (at least to my thinking) divisional builds of MOT/MOT/TD/TD or ARM/ARM/SPARTY/SPARTY as viable? Or are those going to remain the same since the frontage system is still the same?

Keeping the details until DD 4, but there's a new CA system that'll change all that up. Enjoy finding entirely new broken hax divisions to build in TFH! :)
 
Sounds interesting.
That should make AT techs much more important. Same for AT support in the field.
Which is a good thing, considering that almost nobody uses AT brigades... :/
 
it would have a lot of guns, that are still not able to penetrate 110mm of steel, but would wreck havoc among tanks with, say, 80mm of it.

Exactly!

1. And what about Armour of other types armoured units? Espiecially in DIG when player have plenty types of them.

They're fully scriptable, so if DIG plan to upgrade for TFH it's possible.

These new features sound terrific - but how will they affect the naval game? Will naval battles have tactics? What about armor piercing at sea? I can visualize the tactics feature working well to limit the length of naval battles and perhaps make them more lethal, which they should be ... is this your intent? To be honest, the land battles work pretty good now; it's the naval and (to a lesser extent) air game that need development.

No, these features are for land warfare only.
 
Hmmmm... heavy armor will not be pierced by AT brigades of same level?

Will 88mm be included for Germany as separate unit? Because there would be a flaw in the system, right there. Minor issue, but would be nice to include it as towed brigade just like DI:G did. Maybe include heavy AT guns for other nations as well, but at least Germany deserves one special. Also, maybe Tungsten should give extra AP instead of hard attack, then.

No. This is not a tactical game and the 88 being good at shooting tanks sometimes really isn't something we'll model beyond AA having some HA. Armour doesn't become invincible when A>P, it just takes half damage. View the damage it does take as a mix of things like Molotovs/Mines/LancesthroughtheMGport etc. and of lower numbers of heavier weapons mixed into brigades.

Problem i see, is the fact that for entire war, the long barrel, medium and long range artillery could destroy whatever tanks present in the field,
and had way more penetrarion than dedicated AT weapons(due to large caliber of the gun).

So, how will the Artilery proficency be displayed? Low HA but high PEN?

Arty will not have Pen. As a game, it is wise to have unit types have distinct roles, and here if you want to kill tanks well you'll need AT/TD/Tanks. I think the last thing Arty in HoI3 needs is a further use to make it even more ubiquitous.
 
Will penetration be mod-able. Eg, can you make a tech to give infantry an amount of penetration?

yes, its like any other stat
 
Maybe it is wise to not introduce the ahistorical formations, and then attempt to make them usefull by giving them ahistoric stats?

AT and AA were useless because they are too big and too narrow-purposed, not because they lacked Pen or some other sort of thing

? AT was useless, or at least under-used, because there are far more soft targets than hard, and Arty's high SA values meant that even halving it vs Hard targets left it pretty effective. Having Pen on AT and none on Arty. Narrow focus is only a problem when a generalist unit does the job just about as well and also has other uses.

Edit: Reading further you seem to be basing your position mostly on hardcore MP games where things may be different.
 
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Well, it's modable:
Code:
LAND_COMBAT_STR_ARMOR_DEFLECTION_FACTOR = 0.5, -- damage reduction if armor outclassing enemy
LAND_COMBAT_ORG_ARMOR_DEFLECTION_FACTOR = 0.5, -- damage reduction if armor outclassing enemy

But it's a global value, so if you set the reduction to 0.95 it will be the same for all A>P situations.