Hearts of Iron IV: La Résistance will release on February 25th

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I also don't think the new system is bad at modelling stuff... I just find it convoluted where a more abstract system could have done the same job. I could think of MANY ways for an abstract system to do even more than the system they introduce with less micromanagement. It is just a system I will pay very little attention to other than get SOME important bonuses from... make sure i have enough encryption and defences so the opponent spend more resources on intelligence than I do. It just seem way to fiddly for very little overall gain.

Remember that all this stuff will cost precious resources you need to build stuff with or political point to use for more pressing matters.

I really want a good asymmetrical warfare aspect to the game or that intelligence actually matter. But then I would like logistics to matter allot more as that is probably even more important from a realism perspective... it's just not sexy enough even though it is what makes or breaks wars.
I would like command restrictions, some action point system that prevents player from micro too much... more restrictive strategic movement that "simulate" reality better... the list goes on...

I'm not even sure what comes with the patch and what comes with the DLC to be honest and I will not care much either... ;)

So you want gutted gameplay mechanics that punish micromanagement and encourages abstraction.

Sounds like a map painter Risk-style game like EU4 is more up your alley than this game. Part of what turned me away from EU4 is that everything is so abstracted that it started to feel like a shell of a game. They substituted actual gameplay mechanics for an ever growing amount of modifiers and it became boring to me. The addition of new gameplay mechanics is part of what keeps this game fresh for me.

You are also not correct in saying that you speak for people who play historical games. As a player in an MP group that exclusively plays historical games, the new intelligence and espionage system is going to be a game changer. If you're just playing singleplayer exclusively, then of course it's not going to be used to its most, but that's hardly the fault of Paradox.

I think you are using your "historical" preference as a shibboleth. Very little of what you say has any real relation to improved historical gameplay. Rather, you just take issue with the kind of game this is in the first place, even ignoring the alternate history focus trees.
 
I wasn't talking about modern conflicts, I was talking about conflicts in the 1920s, 1930s and 1940s. Armoured car companies were used in interwar Palestine and Egypt, and in Iraq in 1941, precisely because they were useful for counter-insurgency work. They were deployed in Ulster during the 1932 protests and used by the Irish Free State in the Civil war (1922). Could you do the job with trucks, cars and infantry? Sure. But armoured cars had real value in counter-insurgency work, which is why they were frequently used there (whereas, say, light tanks weren't).


I suggest that you are playing just as much a fantasy as the alt-history tracks in the game represent. The historical trajectory wasn't arrived at by the countries involved doing nothing diplomatically or politically; they were very active in making the historical outcomes happen. The political and military leaders of the time did not know that the historical trajectory was the one that was going to happen, so to play while posessing that knowledge in advance is a fantasy just as much as a revival of the Kaiser would be. What you are doing is playing a game where the diplomatic and political parts of the game are essentially abstracted out of the gameplay. You are saying that you want to be able to fight the historical military operations, but without being bothered by any of the other strategic aspects in play at the time. That is absolutely an OK thing to want, but HoI is and has always been a game that tries to cover all of the strategic angles of the WW2 period. How sucessfully it does this we can debate at length (though perhaps not on this thread!), but that is what it sets out to do. By playing as you are you are effectively putting a damper switch on the parts of the grand strategy that you don't want to deal with; that's fine, but don't complain that some of the effort that goes into developing the whole game is irrelevant to you.

I'm just saying that the political and diplomacy is not NEEDED as designed for historical play, not that it could be... but as designed you don't need it.

Also.. please point to a source that say armoured cars in WW2 was more pivotal than men with a rife or just any type of transportation device. Yes they had some tactical use, but no more than anything else. The game simply don't model things at a level that you can difference manpower (or infantry equipment) with and armoured car as the only thing is suppression and IC to produce the equipment. There are no way you can show that armoured cars would be more IC efficient at suppression than infantry from a historical perspective, if you can then please do so... history as far as I have read is only pointing to more or less manpower as the most important factor in the suppression or garrison role.

As far as I know the AC that was used for garrison duty was older ones that was not suited for front line duties. They did well in guard duty as they did not face heavy weapons. This is the same reason why the Japanese did not manufacture any well armoured tanks, they did not need them. It was not as if the Japanese did not know how to build tanks.
 
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So you want gutted gameplay mechanics that punish micromanagement and encourages abstraction.

Sounds like a map painter Risk-style game like EU4 is more up your alley than this game. Part of what turned me away from EU4 is that everything is so abstracted that it started to feel like a shell of a game. They substituted actual gameplay mechanics for an ever growing amount of modifiers and it became boring to me. The addition of new gameplay mechanics is part of what keeps this game fresh for me.

You are also not correct in saying that you speak for people who play historical games. As a player in an MP group that exclusively plays historical games, the new intelligence and espionage system is going to be a game changer. If you're just playing singleplayer exclusively, then of course it's not going to be used to its most, but that's hardly the fault of Paradox.

I think you are using your "historical" preference as a shibboleth. Very little of what you say has any real relation to improved historical gameplay. Rather, you just take issue with the kind of game this is in the first place, even ignoring the alternate history focus trees.

You miss my point... the system is in MY opinion unnecessarily convoluted and detailed where it does not need to be for the impact it actually will have. An abstracted system could actually provide a BETTER more detailed result and simulation. To be effective I would only use the base minimum of resources, mainly encryption and decryption to make sure I use less than the enemy... most of the other effects seem very situational.

The problem I see is that only a very minor part of it will be remotely useful in MP as IC and PP for production and military bonuses will still be way more important due to the snowball effect.

I feel that in MP I already is overwhelmed with information as it is.. even at slowest speed in many occasions... this will not really help. Contrary to what you seem to imply I'm a pretty extreme micromanaging person that want as much info and control as possible... ;)

I also would like to know how often you use the diplomacy in MP other than Lend Lease with other players or political leaders (other than the workhorse) in your economy if it is a historical game.

But these are just my personal opinions... I don't expect everyone to agree. I just don't think this is a very interesting DLC as it add convoluted mechanics for what in the end will have minimal impact on the game. There are a few other parts in this game that also is pretty pointless when you play a historically oriented play through. If you like the sandbox nature and exploring other paths those system will be used, I personally just don't care about those.
 
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I ALWAYS play hisotrical AI and using the historical part of the NF tree... so yes a large part of the game I simply NEVER experience. I'm certainly not the only one on these forums to do that.
May I inquire what nations you normally play?
The game itself is a study in alt history. Even with historical path on. You will deviate from history.
 
I'm just saying that the political and diplomacy is not NEEDED as designed for historical play, not that it could be... but as designed you don't need it.
Right - and I'm saying that playing like that is a fantasy of its own kind. I can see the attraction of it (and I do it myself quite a bit), but it's just as much a fantasy as the alt-history stuff is, because I know when I do it that the alt-history stuff definitely isn't going to happen.

Also.. please point to a source that say armoured cars in WW2 was more pivotal than men with a rife or just any type of transportation device. Yes they had some tactical use, but no more than anything else. The game simply don't model things at a level that you can difference manpower (or infantry equipment) with and armoured car as the only thing is suppression and IC to produce the equipment. There are no way you can show that armoured cars would be more IC efficient at suppression than infantry from a historical perspective, if you can then please do so... history as far as I have read is only pointing to more or less manpower as the most important factor in the suppression or garrison role.
This demand is somewhat specious, since I'm completely sure that no-one has done an academic study of the "IC effectiveness" of armoured cars in counter-insurgency operations, but I base the claim (which I stand by) on two strands of argument:

1) Counter insurgency had been known going back to the Romans' actions against gallic tribes at least. The keys to asymmetric warfare were well understood as networks of fortified bases combined with fast moving forces with concentrated firepower able to respond to intelligence about good rebel targets and swiftly relieve fortified posts under attack. Armoured cars fit the criteria for this force particularly well, being fast over and suited to using public roads (ie they don't chew up the roads they use) and capable of carrying heavy 'soft' firepower (MGs and light canon). They can also be used for pushing aside roadblocks and the like, where unarmoured trucks would be too vulnerable to be useful.

2) Armoured cars were widely used during the 20s, 30s and 40s by police forces and army units for counter insurgency work by forces that had a long history of such operations such as the British Indian and British armies, the KNIL, French colonial forces and home police forces, Italian colonial forces and US forces in Latin America. Given that these forces generally knew what they were about, it seems reasonable to assume that they specifically sought to acquire armoured car units for a reason.

Armoured cars of many sorts - including improvised and rather jerry-built ones built in very small numbers that it probably isn't worth specifically including in the game - were used in riot control, roadblock busting, rapid response and ambush, facility perimeter guard and road convoy escort in countless places around the world because they were well suited to the roles. None of the regular stats of the equipment (SA, HA, Def etc.) model this at all, so the inclusion of an (abstract!) bonus to supression seems reasonable as a way to represent it.

As far as I know the AC that was used for garrison duty was older ones that was not suited for front line duties. They did well in guard duty as they did not face heavy weapons. This is the same reason why the Japanese did not manufacture any well armoured tanks, they did not need them. It was not as if the Japanese did not know how to build tanks.
Just about all of the equipment and personnel used in insurgency supression and garrison duty were older, second line and/or lighter than those used on the front line. This was not a phenomenon confined to armoured cars, and the reason was simple: insurgent forces tended to be lightly equipped and few in number.
 
Right - and I'm saying that playing like that is a fantasy of its own kind. I can see the attraction of it (and I do it myself quite a bit), but it's just as much a fantasy as the alt-history stuff is, because I know when I do it that the alt-history stuff definitely isn't going to happen.


This demand is somewhat specious, since I'm completely sure that no-one has done an academic study of the "IC effectiveness" of armoured cars in counter-insurgency operations, but I base the claim (which I stand by) on two strands of argument:

1) Counter insurgency had been known going back to the Romans' actions against gallic tribes at least. The keys to asymmetric warfare were well understood as networks of fortified bases combined with fast moving forces with concentrated firepower able to respond to intelligence about good rebel targets and swiftly relieve fortified posts under attack. Armoured cars fit the criteria for this force particularly well, being fast over and suited to using public roads (ie they don't chew up the roads they use) and capable of carrying heavy 'soft' firepower (MGs and light canon). They can also be used for pushing aside roadblocks and the like, where unarmoured trucks would be too vulnerable to be useful.

2) Armoured cars were widely used during the 20s, 30s and 40s by police forces and army units for counter insurgency work by forces that had a long history of such operations such as the British Indian and British armies, the KNIL, French colonial forces and home police forces, Italian colonial forces and US forces in Latin America. Given that these forces generally knew what they were about, it seems reasonable to assume that they specifically sought to acquire armoured car units for a reason.

Armoured cars of many sorts - including improvised and rather jerry-built ones built in very small numbers that it probably isn't worth specifically including in the game - were used in riot control, roadblock busting, rapid response and ambush, facility perimeter guard and road convoy escort in countless places around the world because they were well suited to the roles. None of the regular stats of the equipment (SA, HA, Def etc.) model this at all, so the inclusion of an (abstract!) bonus to supression seems reasonable as a way to represent it.


Just about all of the equipment and personnel used in insurgency supression and garrison duty were older, second line and/or lighter than those used on the front line. This was not a phenomenon confined to armoured cars, and the reason was simple: insurgent forces tended to be lightly equipped and few in number.

Your problem trying to rationalise armoured cars as something special is that it was somehow "important" for suppression is that population control is NOT about military force in that regard most of the time. It is mostly about manpower.... sure if you could issue an APC for every squad to make them more powerful and protected it would obviously help... but it is still the manpower that is necessary not the vehicle in and of itself... you can't just replace the IC used for deploying say 10 armoured cars instead of 500 soldiers and staff members.

This is why it makes no sense to go that route in the game... there are no relationship between the man with the gun and the vehicle and in which proportion the number of armoured vehicle actually is useful.

99% of suppression work is about information gathering and things that don't involve direct military threat... an armoured car is completely useless fort that. The armoured vehicle is only very useful in some specific situation while manpower is the most driving force of having a presence everywhere.

I would argue that an armoured APC or half-track wold make more sense than an armoured car if your argumentation was to be followed. Haf-tracks should have an even better suppression vale then.

The problem is that these assets was just way to expensive given the vast areas that need patrolling in WW2... armoured cars was issued to police forces as they were too old and outdated to perform other duties in combat formations, they did very well acting against lightly armed partisans and as general crowd control devices, no surprise there. Half-tracks were simply too valuable to be wasted in such efforts in any great numbers.

In my opinion the truck, car or motorcycle were far more valuable as tools in WW2 as they offered great mobility to way more people for far less cost. Mobility and the capability to quickly respond over a greater area was way more important than having a few armoured cars.

Armoured cars was a situational useful tool... but that was it, they did not in any way replace or augment manpower more than say trucks, cars or motorbikes Perhaps in a different way but that is it.

I would really like to see how many armoured car "companies" that was deployed for partisan duties during WW2... I would be surprised if there were many at all... these vehicles probably were distributed unevenly and situationally where mostly needed, not as coherent fighting units.

On the other hand... armoured cars was a very important part of army divisions. The vast majority of all armoured cars was working with actual fighting armed formations, not used as police forces... that was generally older less capable versions.

The problem is that the game is poor at modelling the importance of different types of equipment, the number of values needed to be modelled are too few for that. This is also why vanilla HoI4 effective divisions look very little like real life divisions.
The game is all about IC efficiency and making armoured cars so efficient that you include them in every garrison unit is not historically accurate, they were not issued in that capacity in any significant numbers. No one built armoured cars specifically for that purpose during the war. The only reason they were more efficient in suppression was their cost to operate and build per vehicle against say a tank.
 
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May I inquire what nations you normally play?
The game itself is a study in alt history. Even with historical path on. You will deviate from history.

I like to mostly play Great Brittain or Japan... but occaionally I play with Germany and Italy as well.... not sure that it matters though.

The fact that a game is always alternate history is a cheap shot... I meant that both I and AI follow a historical part of the NF tree. The games themselves obviously turns out different than history in most regards.

It is more of a plausible alt. history simulation, not the fantasy sandbox that vanilla HoI4 give you which don't interest me at all.

This is also why I never really played HoI4 vanilla game either... my latest games have been with the excellent HoI4 Ultra mod... very interesting concepts where playing as the Axis actually is hard, especially with some house rules for not exploiting too many AI weaknesses.
 
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Your problem trying to rationalise armoured cars as something special is that it was somehow "important" for suppression is that population control is NOT about military force in that regard most of the time. It is mostly about manpower.... sure if you could issue an APC for every squad to make them more powerful and protected it would obviously help... but it is still the manpower that is necessary not the vehicle in and of itself... you can't just replace the IC used for deploying say 10 armoured cars instead of 500 soldiers and staff members.

...
Thoughts:

1) You have way too much time on your hands if this means so much to you.

2) You want minimal detail when it comes to politics, intelligence (which you point out as being highly important in counter insurgency work) and covert operations, diplomacy and guarding against 'off the wall' developments in these areas, but lots more detail in equipment stats... M'kayyy...

3) I begin to suspect, by the end, that the straw man elements of your argument derive from the fact that the simple supression bonus model engenders garrison 'divisions' that consist of nothing except armoured cars; this I actually agree with (but I think you've been unclear, if this is your real complaint). I regard this as a rather different problem, and one that HoI has suffered from since birth (and that we tried to address a bit with Arsenal of Democracy). It would be better if such simple bonuses used a "diminishing returns" or "fraction product" maths in order to drive mixed approaches - granted.

For me the simple remedy is that armoured cars should have bonuses for reconnaissance as well as supression; in both cases the underlying causes are similar. Divisions always travel at the speed of the slowest element, which is fine for operational movement, but doesn't account for the advantages given by good tactical mobility (which is given by good protection, as well as high top speed). Armoured cars were used for liaison and intelligence work as well as recce (although they are related areas, so not a huge surprise), and this aptitude, too, made thet useful in COIN (counter-insurgency). But what is really needed is some sort of effectiveness function that looks like x ( 1 - x ), where x is a value between 0 and 1. This is the approach we took in AoD for combined arms bonus.
 
Thoughts:

1) You have way too much time on your hands if this means so much to you.

2) You want minimal detail when it comes to politics, intelligence (which you point out as being highly important in counter insurgency work) and covert operations, diplomacy and guarding against 'off the wall' developments in these areas, but lots more detail in equipment stats... M'kayyy...

3) I begin to suspect, by the end, that the straw man elements of your argument derive from the fact that the simple supression bonus model engenders garrison 'divisions' that consist of nothing except armoured cars; this I actually agree with (but I think you've been unclear, if this is your real complaint). I regard this as a rather different problem, and one that HoI has suffered from since birth (and that we tried to address a bit with Arsenal of Democracy). It would be better if such simple bonuses used a "diminishing returns" or "fraction product" maths in order to drive mixed approaches - granted.

For me the simple remedy is that armoured cars should have bonuses for reconnaissance as well as supression; in both cases the underlying causes are similar. Divisions always travel at the speed of the slowest element, which is fine for operational movement, but doesn't account for the advantages given by good tactical mobility (which is given by good protection, as well as high top speed). Armoured cars were used for liaison and intelligence work as well as recce (although they are related areas, so not a huge surprise), and this aptitude, too, made thet useful in COIN (counter-insurgency). But what is really needed is some sort of effectiveness function that looks like x ( 1 - x ), where x is a value between 0 and 1. This is the approach we took in AoD for combined arms bonus.

No... you completely do not understand what my concern is... I think that the mechanic that they have invented is to convoluted to interact with for far little impact on how the game is played and ultimately will not fundamentally give a very good simulation of what it tries to do. At least not without heavy modding...

I would like a better less micromanagement heavy system with multiple menu and new map modes to go through that also produce a much more in depth and accurate simulation of what the DLC actually tries to do.

That is my take from what I so far have read and seen from the streams.

You are just going to waste attention to something that is going to just become a side game with rather little effect aside from probably some OP stuff they will nerf in a couple of weeks or month that require a few optimal choices and with a minimum effort interacting with the system.

That is simply what I think it will end up with. But you can believe whatever you like... it's not like I can know any of this for sure yet... we will see... ;)
 
Do we have any information about Armoured Cars adding to suppression? I thought they said ACs (& light tanks) could be added to garrisons to increase Hardness, thus making your troops more survivable against uprisings rather than adding anything to the suppression value.
 
Do we have any information about Armoured Cars adding to suppression? I thought they said ACs (& light tanks) could be added to garrisons to increase Hardness, thus making your troops more survivable against uprisings rather than adding anything to the suppression value.
They have higher suppression value add good hardiness and don't cost much manpower, so basically they are the ideal anti-insurgency unit. I think fo countries like Germany and Japan they will be very important.
 
You are just going to waste attention to something that is going to just become a side game with rather little effect aside from probably some OP stuff they will nerf in a couple of weeks or month that require a few optimal choices and with a minimum effort interacting with the system.
"Side game" to what? What is the "main game" that intel and covert ops (and diplomacy and politics?) are a "side game" to?
 
"Side game" to what? What is the "main game" that intel and covert ops (and diplomacy and politics?) are a "side game" to?
Overall the main game is winning wars, but in this definition naval warfare is a side game.
Overall intelligence and anti-insurgency warfare adds a layer of complexity on the same level and importantance than naval warfare.

I think overall it makes the game much better because anti-insurgency warfare becomes more complex, with spying one gets to do something while at peace.
 
Next one better be USSR and the countries they interacted with, like Finland,Iran,mongolia and one other major who needs work is Italy.
I think USSR, Poland and Baltics would be a good combination. Maybe with a German communist tree.
I don't understand how people want a Mongolia focus tree, its literally a bigger version of tannu Tuvalu.

Finland will come along Sweden, Norway I am pretty sure and Iran alongside Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

Italy might be good together with Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey.
 
I think USSR, Poland and Baltics would be a good combination. Maybe with a German communist tree.
I don't understand how people want a Mongolia focus tree, its literally a bigger version of tannu Tuvalu.

Finland will come along Sweden, Norway I am pretty sure and Iran alongside Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.

Italy might be good together with Bulgaria, Greece and Turkey.
That makes sense, I thought perhaps Russia dlc might want to expand on mongolia as they did send whatever they could:
"Throughout the war with germany, the country provided the Soviet Union with economic support, such as livestock, raw materials, money, food and military clothing, violating Mongolian neutrality in favor of the allies."
I would think it would make sense to flesh mongolia out in order to support USSR better.
 
"Side game" to what? What is the "main game" that intel and covert ops (and diplomacy and politics?) are a "side game" to?

It is a part of the game that you will not have to interact with and that is relatively complex for little impact. The political system in the game are like that unless you play non historical games for example, you never use it except for very rare occasions. The diplomacy interface have like dozens of options I have never used and will never use, to me they are like useless. I feel that the Operator system will be pretty much the same. You might need to interact with it a bit more but not much to get pretty much most of the effects, such as setting up a few Agencies, but even these you will not want too many of as they take allot of resources, not early anyway as you miss snowballing the economy otherwise.

Heavy modding might be able to make it somewhat interesting... but we will see.
 
Overall the main game is winning wars, but in this definition naval warfare is a side game.
Overall intelligence and anti-insurgency warfare adds a layer of complexity on the same level and importantance than naval warfare.

I think overall it makes the game much better because anti-insurgency warfare becomes more complex, with spying one gets to do something while at peace.

The difference between the Naval mechanic and the Politic tab for example is that you must interact with the Naval mechanic unless you play say Russia. It is not really an optional part of the game, it is part of what make up the game.

Operatives is a bit comic like in my opinion...

I like the new resistance mechanics over the old ones... it's not like I dislike everything about the patch, I just think the Operative system is convoluted. I don't think it is worth my money to get that part of the system.
 
The difference between the Naval mechanic and the Politic tab for example is that you must interact with the Naval mechanic unless you play say Russia. It is not really an optional part of the game, it is part of what make up the game.

Operatives is a bit comic like in my opinion...

I like the new resistance mechanics over the old ones... it's not like I dislike everything about the patch, I just think the Operative system is convoluted. I don't think it is worth my money to get that part of the system.
That is valid, for me navy is something I deal with if I have to but try to avoid as much as possible. While I play a lot of MP where it can be boring at times (usually watching Netflix on mybsecond screen) so I welcome the addition, also I use the diplomacy, politics system much more so I think it depends on personal inclinations how one judges the new systems.
 
I think USSR, Poland and Baltics would be a good combination. Maybe with a German communist tree.
I don't understand how people want a Mongolia focus tree, its literally a bigger version of tannu Tuvalu.

Finland will come along Sweden, Norway I am pretty sure

I disagree, Finland needs to be packed with USSR expansion. Yes they are a northern state, but they had way more interactions with Russia and Germany than they did with the rest of Scandinavia, not to mention they played a key role in Eastern front.