Hearts of Iron IV - Development Diary 5 - Production Lines

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Secret Master

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Exactly my point. I spent a few years in the infantry...

Point is, infantry equipment is crucial. If the game chooses to not take this into effect, there are repercussions... same as if they do. Point is, a bolt action vs semi-auto vs sub-machinegun vs assault rifle are all valid points. Each was designed for a purpose (same reason why I was retrained on an M4 carbine instead of a standard M16A4). Firepower is only part of the equation.

However, how your battalion is equipped will determine how they fight in general and on specific terrain. Urban? Submachinegun. Plains? Semi-auto or assault rifle. Forest? I'd personally take a semi-auto (WWII here). Hills? Assault Rifle.

So, if your line infantry had the option to be armed with bolt-action rifles or semi-auto rifles, what would you decree for them?

Yes, but the game is designed at the divisional level. We're not running squads or fire teams here. So, tech should improve over time, but if you start talking about what weapons are issued to individual riflemen, we'll be here all day designing one infantry division.

I'd prefer if the rifleman "kit" assumed a variety of weapons were issued, instead of just having one label. That way, there's no confusion. Otherwise, the game says, "You issued AK-47s to your 1946 Soviet riflemen" and you think to yourself, "But some of them need other weapons!"

You get into the same problem with machine guns. If you aren't careful, you end up spending three hours deciding on the exact ratios of M2s to Lewis Guns to M1919s in an weapons company and then another three hours setting up production lines.
 

D Inqu

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Yes, but the game is designed at the divisional level. We're not running squads or fire teams here. So, tech should improve over time, but if you start talking about what weapons are issued to individual riflemen, we'll be here all day designing one infantry division.

I'd prefer if the rifleman "kit" assumed a variety of weapons were issued, instead of just having one label. That way, there's no confusion. Otherwise, the game says, "You issued AK-47s to your 1946 Soviet riflemen" and you think to yourself, "But some of them need other weapons!"

You get into the same problem with machine guns. If you aren't careful, you end up spending three hours deciding on the exact ratios of M2s to Lewis Guns to M1919s in an weapons company and then another three hours setting up production lines.

You should not equip individual units. We can however make decisions at a strategic level:
1. Do you you rearm the army immediately after a new design appears or test extensively (the soviets took around 4 years to get the semi-automatic they were satisfied with).
2. Do you focus of simplicity (easier to mass produce) or quality (slightly better stats)
3. Will you "downgrade" to a simpler weapon because your factories can't keep up with equipment losses?
 

Jopo-80

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OK, here´s my two pence worth. When it comes to production, I´d really really really like to see the economy model expanded to cover the national economies in a more wholesome fashion. For example, I´d like to see taxation, budget etc. I´ll point to the direction of games like Supreme Ruler series and the unfortunately cancelled East vs West, which had a GDP value in every province, at least from what I gathered from the screenshots. The underlying reason I´d like to see these things is that I propose to make a mod (unless Paradox plans an official DLC/expansion) that expands the timeline possibly to 1900 (WW-1) - 2050 (Cold War and modern conflicts like the ongoing Ukrainian unrest/conflict). For this to work, the game really would need a more in-depth economic system.

As for resources, I´d request if it at all is possible, that the resources (tungsten, iron, coal etc.) be pushed to a text file so modders can add new resources. This would pretty much solve the problems for expandability I guess, since taxation/gdp could be added as a resource, same as agriculture/food (required by pop and can also be converted to alcohol fuel), fresh water (Supreme Ruler series has this and future conflicts may very well be for this resource).

Of course adding new resources also means adding the functionalities for them, like which buildings require them and how much (say light IC or small arms industry, 1 iron 1 wood 1 electricity and 0.5 money per day coded in the buildings file as daily resource costs.

Manpower could be calculated from province population with a formula, say that a province has 500.000 ppl (Helsinki for example), manpower is simply a percentage of this number calculated by using different parameters like conscription age set in conscription laws (say, men only, 18-60 of age, 30% of 500.000 gives a manpower number of 150 units of 1000 men total. that as a rough example). Also taxation could be calculated from population (per capita GDP). Additionally, let´s not forget that industry needs manpower as well to work, if you conscript all your farm/factory workers to the armed forces you must also organize a womens auxiliary army to fill the gaps in labor force, otherwise your industry will grind to a halt and your citizens will starve creating dissent which will soon boil over into a revolution.

To conclude, I´ll quote an old Roman proverb; "The sinews of war is a bottomless purse". In order to win you must have the economic/financial resources to do so.


Cheers!


EDIT: I´ll weigh in a bit on the infantry equipment discussion. Deciding what type of a standard weapon your infantry wields is indeed crucial in my opinion. Bolt-action rifles are simpler (more reliable) and cheaper to produce than semi-auto rifles (at least the early models had problems with reliability if I remember correctly) or assault rifles, but they cannot stand up to the sheer firepower of automatic weapons in a firefight. What type of a weapon is most effective depends on several factors as mentioned, terrain, vegetation, urbanization etc. Personally I view this from the peculiar standpoint common to northern latitudes (Scandinavia, Finland, Alaska etc.).
What type of a weapon will work and keep working in freezing temperatures where the WW-2 era gun oils etc. would freeze rendering the early automatic/semi-automatic weapons unreliable? Now the Russians did an outstanding job in designing the AK-47 on which the modern Finnish army rifles are based, just imagine if you rushed ahead in design and were able to equip your Finnish army with assault rifles for the Winter War? A flight of fantasy yes, but just to illustrate the point that it would have the effect of doubling or tripling the firepower of an infantry unit, the assault rifle indeed was a revolution in firearms design and in my opinion the game should reflect that in some way.
 
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Secret Master

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OK, here´s my two pence worth. When it comes to production, I´d really really really like to see the economy model expanded to cover the national economies in a more wholesome fashion. For example, I´d like to see taxation, budget etc. I´ll point to the direction of games like Supreme Ruler series and the unfortunately cancelled East vs West, which had a GDP value in every province, at least from what I gathered from the screenshots.

You really aught to play Vic2. It has the kind of economic management of which you speak.
 

Wulf145

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OK, here´s my two pence worth. When it comes to production, I´d really really really like to see the economy model expanded to cover the national economies in a more wholesome fashion. For example, I´d like to see taxation, budget etc. I´ll point to the direction of games like Supreme Ruler series and the unfortunately cancelled East vs West, which had a GDP value in every province, at least from what I gathered from the screenshots. The underlying reason I´d like to see these things is that I propose to make a mod (unless Paradox plans an official DLC/expansion) that expands the timeline possibly to 1900 (WW-1) - 2050 (Cold War and modern conflicts like the ongoing Ukrainian unrest/conflict). For this to work, the game really would need a more in-depth economic system.

I think you are forgetting that HOI is a WW2 Game and not an Economic simulator set in the 30s and 40s. I doubt that a lot of people will want to spend a lot of time trying to work out a fiscal policy during Operation Barbarossa, I know I certainly don't.
 

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OK, here´s my two pence worth. When it comes to production, I´d really really really like to see the economy model expanded to cover the national economies in a more wholesome fashion. For example, I´d like to see taxation, budget etc. I´ll point to the direction of games like Supreme Ruler series and the unfortunately cancelled East vs West, which had a GDP value in every province, at least from what I gathered from the screenshots. The underlying reason I´d like to see these things is that I propose to make a mod (unless Paradox plans an official DLC/expansion) that expands the timeline possibly to 1900 (WW-1) - 2050 (Cold War and modern conflicts like the ongoing Ukrainian unrest/conflict). For this to work, the game really would need a more in-depth economic system.

As for resources, I´d request if it at all is possible, that the resources (tungsten, iron, coal etc.) be pushed to a text file so modders can add new resources. This would pretty much solve the problems for expandability I guess, since taxation/gdp could be added as a resource, same as agriculture/food (required by pop and can also be converted to alcohol fuel), fresh water (Supreme Ruler series has this and future conflicts may very well be for this resource).

Of course adding new resources also means adding the functionalities for them, like which buildings require them and how much (say light IC or small arms industry, 1 iron 1 wood 1 electricity and 0.5 money per day coded in the buildings file as daily resource costs.

Manpower could be calculated from province population with a formula, say that a province has 500.000 ppl (Helsinki for example), manpower is simply a percentage of this number calculated by using different parameters like conscription age set in conscription laws (say, men only, 18-60 of age, 30% of 500.000 gives a manpower number of 150 units of 1000 men total. that as a rough example). Also taxation could be calculated from population (per capita GDP). Additionally, let´s not forget that industry needs manpower as well to work, if you conscript all your farm/factory workers to the armed forces you must also organize a womens auxiliary army to fill the gaps in labor force, otherwise your industry will grind to a halt and your citizens will starve creating dissent which will soon boil over into a revolution.

To conclude, I´ll quote an old Roman proverb; "The sinews of war is a bottomless purse". In order to win you must have the economic/financial resources to do so.


Cheers!


EDIT: I´ll weigh in a bit on the infantry equipment discussion. Deciding what type of a standard weapon your infantry wields is indeed crucial in my opinion. Bolt-action rifles are simpler (more reliable) and cheaper to produce than semi-auto rifles (at least the early models had problems with reliability if I remember correctly) or assault rifles, but they cannot stand up to the sheer firepower of automatic weapons in a firefight. What type of a weapon is most effective depends on several factors as mentioned, terrain, vegetation, urbanization etc. Personally I view this from the peculiar standpoint common to northern latitudes (Scandinavia, Finland, Alaska etc.).
What type of a weapon will work and keep working in freezing temperatures where the WW-2 era gun oils etc. would freeze rendering the early automatic/semi-automatic weapons unreliable? Now the Russians did an outstanding job in designing the AK-47 on which the modern Finnish army rifles are based, just imagine if you rushed ahead in design and were able to equip your Finnish army with assault rifles for the Winter War? A flight of fantasy yes, but just to illustrate the point that it would have the effect of doubling or tripling the firepower of an infantry unit, the assault rifle indeed was a revolution in firearms design and in my opinion the game should reflect that in some way.
i would love to see all that as well, but i doubt paradox want to give us even a fraction of this... RIP EVW
 

Cardus

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zinger98

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You should not equip individual units. We can however make decisions at a strategic level:
1. Do you you rearm the army immediately after a new design appears or test extensively (the soviets took around 4 years to get the semi-automatic they were satisfied with).
2. Do you focus of simplicity (easier to mass produce) or quality (slightly better stats)
3. Will you "downgrade" to a simpler weapon because your factories can't keep up with equipment losses?

Exactly my point. If you don't manufacture them, you have an issue.
 

Nelfe

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from what I have seen there are only 3 Resources per Production line, so even if you can increase the total amount of Rescource types, I doubt that you will be able to increase the number of Resource types per production line.

Maybe they set 3 resources per production line so the production's part of the game won't be tedious.
 

yautjasith

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Rate of fire is not as important as hitting your target. One Army Captain told me the biggest issue they have is just getting troops to aim in combat and not just keep pulling the trigger! The Marine Corps has done studies that confirm this, and has focused for decades on basic rifle skills as the key to combat effectiveness. The main purpose of the machine gun is suppression; it pins down the enemy so they cannot move or effectively return fire.

Germans: The concept at the beginning of the war was for a squad to have a machine gun lay down suppressing fire while most soldiers with bolt action carbines took time to aim shots. The squad leader was the only one with a sub-machine gun. As the war progressed, they wound up in more close assault situations so sub-machine guns were in higher demand. Eventually they came to a conclusion about combat: Most engagements are within 300 meters (just over 300 yards). This led to the STG-44, the world's first "assault rifle". The weapon and cartridge were a compromise between rifle and sub-machine gun in terms of rate of fire, range, accuracy and hitting power. You could select semi-automatic (for aimed shots) or full-automatic (for suppression or assaults).

U.S. Army: Individual American squads did not carry their own belt-fed .30 caliber machine guns; those were assigned to weapon platoons. Instead, infantry squads mostly carried M1 Garands, with a couple of BAR (Browning Automatic Rifles) in support. The squad leader had a Thompson sub-machine gun. This high rate of fire was very useful for assaults, but at longer ranges it often encouraged "spray and pray" tactics. (note: M1 carbines were not initially meant for infantry, but were issued as backup weapons to tankers, truck drivers and support troops).

U.S. Marines: During the war the Marines developed the "Fire Team" concept (which they still use). Each squad consisted of 13 men. This included one squad leader (sub-machine gun) and 3 Fire Teams. Each Fire Team had four men (3 M1 Garands and 1 Browning Automatic Rifle). One team could advance while the other two provided covering fire, then the next would advance, and so on. Many armies have adopted this concept over the years after WW2.

Other nations varied, but it boils down to rate of fire and accuracy. These two factors greatly affect how a unit performs defense, assault and covering fire tasks.
 

Thanik

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OK, here´s my two pence worth. When it comes to production, I´d really really really like to see the economy model expanded to cover the national economies in a more wholesome fashion. For example, I´d like to see taxation, budget etc. I´ll point to the direction of games like Supreme Ruler series and the unfortunately cancelled East vs West, which had a GDP value in every province, at least from what I gathered from the screenshots.

But Supreme Ruler with "advanced economy model" have the one big flaw: low speed (high CPU demand), and many micro is needed - and this really hurt fun from game.
You can always give AI control of economy, but player usually want to manage everything so this not solve anything.

I agree ,some mechanics from Supreme Ruler, or East vs West are good, but I don't want to play full game (1936-1945) over one month.
And with additional information MP will be unplayable.
 

Meanmanturbo

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But Supreme Ruler with "advanced economy model" have the one big flaw: low speed (high CPU demand), and many micro is needed - and this really hurt fun from game.
You can always give AI control of economy, but player usually want to manage everything so this not solve anything.

I agree ,some mechanics from Supreme Ruler, or East vs West are good, but I don't want to play full game (1936-1945) over one month.
And with additional information MP will be unplayable.

Eh, Supreme Rulers biggest cpu problem was the model were you moved individual battalions around tactically, not the economic part. Oh, that reminds me, I have not tried Supreme Ruler 2020 on my new computer, let's see if it is playable on my THIRD machine since buying the game:D
 

Dalwin

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Supreme Ruler's biggest problem is that it has perhaps the most pathetic AI to ever grace a grand strategy game. In the 1936 version, before 1941 I had single handedly taken Berlin, Rome and Moscow as Poland.

It throws its troops away in dribs and drabs. All you have to do is dig in and weather the initial assault and then go on the offensive with massed forces. It has nothing significant left with which to put up resistance.
 

dav77-b

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Please add the ability to move factories, for example to siberia :cool: In case of Germany to focus the industry in the glorious fatherland.
This should cost "IK"

I readed some stuff here about petroleum and synthetic industry. It should be easy to implement that you can use factories to convert coal into fuel.
 

ikeokp

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To me, this is the most exciting feature of the new game. This will steer the game in a more historical pattern without a crap ton of events. Can't wait to try this out.
 

Ibn_Solmyr

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Fantastic news ! Really happy, again, with the way the design goes.:wub:

However, I think it's really a shame that our production lines aren't located on a particular town of the territory. Strat bombing should target a particular objective, like historically... :sad:
 

Caesar15

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Fantastic news ! Really happy, again, with the way the design goes.:wub:

However, I think it's really a shame that our production lines aren't located on a particular town of the territory. Strat bombing should target a particular objective, like historically... :sad:

It would be nice to do an actual Battle of Britian.