Hearts of Iron IV - Development Diary 5 - Production Lines

[Admiral Piett]

true, Brits invented tanks, while the japs invented carriers

The Japanese did not invent carriers. They just perfected their use, at least within the limits of interwar technology (the Americans would improve on what the Japanese had started). The IJN actually relied extensively on British assistance in the immediate post-WWI period. For example, the Japanese did not design the flight deck of Hosho until they had consulted with a British naval aviation mission that had been sent to Japan (under the waning Anglo-Japanese Alliance).

On the topic of Japanese tank design...well. They didn't have enough steel for everything, and they chose ships over tanks. That and their tanks had extremely low weight restrictions because the IJA knew that to deploy anywhere they would fight, they would have to stick all of their tanks on the limited transport tonnage they had available to go across the water first. Something that the Germans or Soviets didn't need to be nearly as concerned about. Additionally, the value of true heavy or medium tanks was questioned by the IJA since most of the areas they planned on fighting in were logistical nightmares, only made worse by the IJA's terrible way of handling said logistics. Obviously after Nomonhan and Lake Khasan, the IJA began to accelerate its modernization plans which had been in place for quite some time, but again, due to resource restrictions (ships and planes took priority) and conservatism amongst some important people in high command positions these plans didn't really progress that far.

If anyone here wants to know more just quote me and ask for some books and articles. I didn't just pull all that information off Wikipedia, they are all from some of the leading scholars on the IJA and IJN. I'm more of a naval and intelligence historian, but the whole Imperial Japanese military (and Pacific War as a whole) is my playground of course.

Anyway, I'm extremely excited for this new production system. I wasn't totally on board with HOI4 when it was first announced, but these changes have made me a believer. As a mostly Japanese Empire player this makes me say "VERY HONORABLE!"

 

[Joppos]

If you mean sinking the cargo they are carrying at the same time as the ship then yes, absolutely 100% with you on this.

You can park half your fleet next to Midway and the garrison will never run out of supplies until your enemy has completely run out of convoy ships.

PDS, please fix the system that makes this possible.

I was indeed referring to this. Convoy warfare was weeeird.

 

[Dalwin]

You are absolutely not the only one to have noticed the possibility. It was the first thing I thought of when it was announced that resources have changed from stockpiles to a flow model. I am sure I posted about what this means for the uboat war in a few places.

So even though uboats have not been directly mentioned in a DD, the inference was obvious. I hope that something is also done to make overseas supply disruption practical.

 

[sgt.stickybomb]

The Japanese did not invent carriers. They just perfected their use, at least within the limits of interwar technology (the Americans would improve on what the Japanese had started). The IJN actually relied extensively on British assistance in the immediate post-WWI period. For example, the Japanese did not design the flight deck of Hosho until they had consulted with a British naval aviation mission that had been sent to Japan (under the waning Anglo-Japanese Alliance).

On the topic of Japanese tank design...well. They didn't have enough steel for everything, and they chose ships over tanks. That and their tanks had extremely low weight restrictions because the IJA knew that to deploy anywhere they would fight, they would have to stick all of their tanks on the limited transport tonnage they had available to go across the water first. Something that the Germans or Soviets didn't need to be nearly as concerned about. Additionally, the value of true heavy or medium tanks was questioned by the IJA since most of the areas they planned on fighting in were logistical nightmares, only made worse by the IJA's terrible way of handling said logistics. Obviously after Nomonhan and Lake Khasan, the IJA began to accelerate its modernization plans which had been in place for quite some time, but again, due to resource restrictions (ships and planes took priority) and conservatism amongst some important people in high command positions these plans didn't really progress that far.

If anyone here wants to know more just quote me and ask for some books and articles. I didn't just pull all that information off Wikipedia, they are all from some of the leading scholars on the IJA and IJN. I'm more of a naval and intelligence historian, but the whole Imperial Japanese military (and Pacific War as a whole) is my playground of course.

Anyway, I'm extremely excited for this new production system. I wasn't totally on board with HOI4 when it was first announced, but these changes have made me a believer. As a mostly Japanese Empire player this makes me say "VERY HONORABLE!"

*sigh* I knew someone was gonna go anal on my post. Fine, let me rephrase: the Brits invented tanks, while the japs designed, built, and laid down the first Aircraft carrier.

 

[Admiral Piett]

*sigh* I knew someone was gonna go anal on my post. Fine, let me rephrase: the Brits invented tanks, while the japs designed, built, and laid down the first Aircraft carrier.

Hahaha, I was certainly not "anal." I'm an educator, so I educate. I love talking about the stuff and seize any opportunity to do so. I was not drawing any opinions on your intelligence or anything of that sort. I apologize if I offended you.

 

[Joppos]

...

I will agree with this individual whatever he says. He has a fantastic username.

 

[Liquid Sky]

The Austrians built the first aircraft carrier. In 1849 it launched hot air balloons to drop explosives on Venice.

 

[frolix42]

The Austrians built the first aircraft carrier. In 1849 it launched hot air balloons to drop explosives on Venice.

Austria should start with 1849 carrier technology.

 

[Opanashc]

I dont think the Soviets were short on anything in terms of raw materials.

And you would be wrong. Just as an example, SU built most of its fighters out of wood. They did not have enough aluminum. Though they did not have a shortage as severe as Germans did.

 

[Dalwin]

Austria should start with 1849 carrier technology.

Though with zero shipyards in the WWII era the tech will do them a fat lot of good.

 

[Porkman]

British carriers of the war would have been destroyed instantaneously had they ever met US or Japanese carriers. In much the same way that a Japanese Type 95 would be eaten alive by any contemporary Russian or German tank. I don't mean to say that either British carriers or Japanese tanks were useless, they weren't. It's just that they were only useful in situations where the enemy had none of their own.

HA!

Yeah. That’s why every US carrier designed since the war followed the British pattern by moving the armour up to flight-deck level.

Because the Brit' carriers were crap

See my earlier comment about the sweeping brush & quick-drying cement. It seems someone in the USN did a cost-benefit analysis and concluded that the broom & a couple of buckets of concrete works out cheaper than three months in dock for repairs.

 

[Big Nev]

While sub warfare was not mentioned directly the industrial impacts of it should be more immediate and severe thanks to the changes to stockpiles and the resource system we can read about in this DD:

Thanks Alex, I though my Oldtimer's disease was getting worse.

And thanks to podcat & Placid too. I always thought Russia had virtually inexhaustible resources of whatever she needed. Just needed the proper direction. (and leaders & training of course) I was worried I’d missed something important there.

You never know when you're going to learn something new in here right?

 

[Secret Master]

Yeah, I'm thinking that the inability to stockpile resources, and then turn off resource convoys, will make the Battle of the Atlantic more fun.

I mean, I can kill the British Merchant Marine in about 18 months in HOI3, but that doesn't change the fact that the economic impact of such an action is not as crippling as it will no doubt be in HOI4 with no huge stockpiles.

It also means that maybe submarines will be a bigger component of the Pacific. We'll have to see what rules for trade are included, though.

 

[Big Nev]

British carriers of the war would have been destroyed instantaneously had they ever met US or Japanese carriers. In much the same way that a Japanese Type 95 would be eaten alive by any contemporary Russian or German tank. I don't mean to say that either British carriers or Japanese tanks were useless, they weren't. It's just that they were only useful in situations where the enemy had none of their own.

Trolling?

HMS Indefatigable. The first British carrier to be struck by a Kamikazi in May 1945. Flight operations resumed the next day.

April 1st 1945, Indefatigable was, again, struck by a kamikaze. Flight operations resumed half an hour later.



I wish I could find the quote from the US captain/admiral/whatever about the brooms & cement.

 

[misterbean]

For those of you who seem to think that the British were lousy in Carrier design, a few notes.

The British were the first to put the island off to the side of the ship, where every carrier worldwide has had it since.
They were the first to use armoured flight decks.
The British were, according to Wikipedia, the first to put radar on their capital ships. Granted, I find that rather improbable, but whatever.
As has been noted, the pre-war Japanese carriers were all build with the help of UK.

In my opinion, the British had been adhering to the Washington treaty and had failed to properly update their designs. That's why they had fallen behind in some respects. But they were not useless.

 

[Big Nev]

For those of you who seem to think that the British were lousy in Carrier design, a few notes.

The British were the first to put the island off to the side of the ship, where every carrier worldwide has had it since.
They were the first to use armoured flight decks.
The British were, according to Wikipedia, the first to put radar on their capital ships. Granted, I find that rather improbable, but whatever.
As has been noted, the pre-war Japanese carriers were all build with the help of UK.

In my opinion, the British had been adhering to the Washington treaty and had failed to properly update their designs. That's why they had fallen behind in some respects. But they were not useless.

First radar fitted to a warship was a Type 97Y fitted to HMD Sheffield in 1938. This long-wave (75MHz) was only any good as an air-warning radar.

Nelson got one in Jan 1939.

Germany had developed 375MHz equipment in 1937 that was good enough for gun laying but for some reason, the Kriegsmarine weren't very interested at the time. Graf Spee got a "modern" version installed in 1939.


This whole thing really could have gone anyone's way if Japan, Germany or the USA had shown more interest.

 

[Dan1109]

Strategic Resources are not accumulated in pools.

I disagree - this contradicts what empires have been doing for thousands of years. Heck, it's documented in the Bible, in the book of genesis - the story of Joseph interpreting Pharaoh's dreams, predicting FAMINE and the need to store reserves.

More recent documentation can be found:

www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12028&page=134 - quite a fascinating book it seems

FROM 1938 THROUGH WORLD WAR II
The first activity to develop an inventory of strategic and critical materials for military use was authorized in the Naval Appropriations Act of 1938, which also provided funds to buy strategic items. But today’s NDS had its beginning with the passage of the 1939 Strategic Materials Act, which authorized $100 million for the Secretaries of War and the Navy acting jointly with the Secretary of the Interior and in conjunction with the Army and Navy Munitions Board to purchase strategic raw materials for a stockpile. The Army and Navy Munitions Board had developed a list of 42 strategic and critical materials needed for wartime production. The list was based on the threatened loss of vital imports as a consequence of Japanese conquests in Asia and the possibility of war in Europe (Snyder, 1966). By May 1940, small quantities of certain materials—such as chromite, manganese, rubber, and tin—were procured under the Strategic Materials Act. By October 1940, both the Army and Navy Munitions Board and the National Defense Advisory Commission, a Presidential advisory group, had recommended specific quantities of strategic minerals for stockpiling, many of which were the same as on the earlier list. Unfortunately, the acquisition of these materials was not completed before the beginning of the war, because only $70 million of the $100 million had been appropriated by Congress and only $54 million worth of materials had been acquired.


So...I know there were exploits in HOI3, Germany storing enough reserves to last +3 years into the war, but that just needs to be fixed with the trade system. Stockpiles should be available. Let testers figure out the balance of the limits of the reserve. Now, perhaps stockpiles erode naturally in time and don't last forever, so this can also be tweaked during test to prevent exploits. But it's really not an exploit - it's a critical military strategy having been done for atleast a few millennia.

 

[Joppos]

I disagree - this contradicts what empires have been doing for thousands of years. Heck, it's documented in the Bible, in the book of genesis - the story of Joseph interpreting Pharaoh's dreams, predicting FAMINE and the need to store reserves.

More recent documentation can be found:

www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12028&page=134 - quite a fascinating book it seems

FROM 1938 THROUGH WORLD WAR II
The first activity to develop an inventory of strategic and critical materials for military use was authorized in the Naval Appropriations Act of 1938, which also provided funds to buy strategic items. But today’s NDS had its beginning with the passage of the 1939 Strategic Materials Act, which authorized $100 million for the Secretaries of War and the Navy acting jointly with the Secretary of the Interior and in conjunction with the Army and Navy Munitions Board to purchase strategic raw materials for a stockpile. The Army and Navy Munitions Board had developed a list of 42 strategic and critical materials needed for wartime production. The list was based on the threatened loss of vital imports as a consequence of Japanese conquests in Asia and the possibility of war in Europe (Snyder, 1966). By May 1940, small quantities of certain materials—such as chromite, manganese, rubber, and tin—were procured under the Strategic Materials Act. By October 1940, both the Army and Navy Munitions Board and the National Defense Advisory Commission, a Presidential advisory group, had recommended specific quantities of strategic minerals for stockpiling, many of which were the same as on the earlier list. Unfortunately, the acquisition of these materials was not completed before the beginning of the war, because only $70 million of the $100 million had been appropriated by Congress and only $54 million worth of materials had been acquired.


So...I know there were exploits in HOI3, Germany storing enough reserves to last +3 years into the war, but that just needs to be fixed with the trade system. Stockpiles should be available. Let testers figure out the balance of the limits of the reserve. Now, perhaps stockpiles erode naturally in time and don't last forever, so this can also be tweaked during test to prevent exploits. But it's really not an exploit - it's a critical military strategy having been done for atleast a few millennia.

I'm inclined to agree. Reading German Aircraft Industry and Production, 1933-1945 by Ferenc A. Vajda, Peter Dance, it seems Germany did not have any significant stockpiles of strategic materials, mostly due to insufficient production/import. Copper though was in 1938 stockpiled at 200kt while consumption the same year was 450kt, while for example an aluminium stockpile as far as i know was virtually non-existant. Speaking of aluminium though, Germany took advantage of secondary sources (recycled) to a very large degree, amounting to more than a third of total consumption from '41 - '45. I wonder if such a thing as well as synthetic rubber production will be possible to represent in any way.

Reading some of To Have and Have Not by Jonathan Marshall, The US took a number of measures in seeking to stockpile strategic materials leading up to the second world war. By december 1941 they had thirteen months stockpile of tin, and even less concerning rubber. Apparently, rubber import was a real concern for the US at that time.

Having said this, while stockpiles should in my opinion exist in some form as they were historical and very central to wartime resource management, they should be much non-trivial to accumulate or maintain. The hindsight factor that plagues the hoi series is really disillusioning, and i really appreciate that PDS seems to take measures in limiting the players ability to employ this. A US leading up to ww2 that easily just vacuum the world market of all strategic materials would be game-breaking, but at the same time a Germany that has no ability to stockpile at all would presumably be very limited in its resource strategy.

 

[Dan1109]

I'm afraid that the lack of strong engagement of the stockpile and naval deployment debate by Podcat, is turning out to be bad news for proponents of these concepts. From a design point of view, I wouldn't understand why they would be anything other than trivial features. Is it a possible weak AI (Defense AI, trade AI, convoy raiding AI) being protected in these cases? Where else have I seen weak AI??? Trying to remember....

Regardless, I ask that flags be developed to allow these features to be optionally supported. and only functional testing be performed by PI, letting the mod community integrate and play test these features. The Stockpile feature needs Parms for stockpilelimitsize and stockpiledecayrate. It's quite easy to add mods to prevent exploiting this functionality.

I won't be over zealous and request a feature where you can strat bomb stockpiles (yeah, lighting that fuel on fire should be easy, but it would be by far more fun trying to find it) - by seeing previous title AI performance, I will admit that this could push the AI over the edge...

 

[keynes2.0]

It's not that it's impossible to program stockpiles, it's that it isn't worth it for what is added to the game.

Any game is by necessity going to exclude things that could be included. Players wont have the option to distribute forged enemy currency, something that everybody tried. Why not? Well either it doesn't affect things in which case it changed nothing or it affects things massively and unbalances the game.