Hearts of Iron IV - Development Diary 4 - Land Doctrines

[tommylotto]

Another issue I had was mutually exclusive paths, I am not a fan of this. Seems too deterministic too me, why cant I at the mobile warfare juncture choose armor, but realize that my armor is not really effective with out armored infantry threrefore I work on both. I just really dont like the mutually exclusive aspect of the game as it limits my choices. Maybe a compromise would be you have to complete one before doing the other but please reconsider this choice. Especially given that you can completely shift doctrines, why couldnt you shift paths inside a tree?

I assume both paths will improve both, but the infantry path will improve infantry more, and the armor path, armor more. You can't emphasize both, because there would be no emphasis. You must emphasize one of the other, unless of course there was a third balanced path...

 

[Cpack]

So hopefully all doctrines our impacts of it are also influenced by current situations or practical uses on the map. f.e. the more you succed in blitzkrieg warfare, the more impact you get from the doctrines. Also vice versa. If as Germany you are in a defence roll, the more you loose offensive benefits, but maybe gain more impact of the defensive doctrines....like gainable traits for leaders.

 

[Gamer_1745]

Way too ridged! I think Mobile Warfare & Superior Firepower are not incompatible with each other and Grand Battleplan & Mass Assault are close also. I like the idea that a nation goes in a direction and not randomly pics Doctrines. I like that AI's pick a historical path most of the time, but human players play for the 'what ifs' (what player picks Germany and hopes they lose the same way as in history). I think that a long forced path with a 'learn this before this' path is too gamey. Some dependencies are good. Now this doesn't mean that I don't think paths are bad or wrong, just that they should not be forced.

I think a nation should declare a 'main doctrine'. Then researching the paths should be the easiest way to get new doctrines. The level and type of combat should give progress toward gaining a doctrine (even gaining one without research if done enough) invading enough beaches give you a 'Beach Invasion' doctrine or some such. Even if you are going down the Mobile Warfare path and you are Germany and still have alot of standard infantry divisions and they hold off many attacks by enemy tank divisions they should develop defensive doctrines. The Germans still had all their First World War doctrines and they used them as well as developing new ones ( the French just used their old ones). I think researching some doctrines outside your 'main doctrine' should be possible, but be more difficult as well as researching in your 'main doctrine' out of order.

I do think you have good ideas, I think they seem too much like other 'games'. I want a WWII strategic simulator more than a WWII strategic game.

 

[Augustus93]

How moddable will this be?
Can I expand the different trees with more techs?
Is the AI actively choosing the path it takes depending on the current situation or is it maybe a percentage chance for the AI to choose a certain path?

 

[Riotkiller]

The artists should all get some kudos (and beer). These all look so much better graphically than HoI3. Nice attention to detail.

Intrigued by the doctrines, look forward to seeing naval & air too.

Are there any links between the three types of doctrine? Eg. Superior Firepower being most effective with Air Doctrine C, etc?

 

[GAGA Extrem]

Doesn't look like you have too much choises after picking. Hm.
I really hope we won't end up with first-order-strategies again (like in HoI2).

How big is the impact of each single step supposed to be? Will it be like an NI in EU4 (a single effect or special ability like forced march or unlocking a special unit like MBTs)? Or will it be a subset of different benefits (like +1 speed for ARM, +1 speed for MOT, +1 attack for ART from a single step)?

Will doctrines interact with each other to create counterplay or rock-scissor-paper situations (e.g. Deep Battle has abilites/advantages against Blitzkrieg has abilities/advantages against Grand Battleplan)?

And: I concur, icons look very good.

 

[Oliver Twopence]

Nice. Looks very slick.

In addition to the nice icons, I like the subtle implementation of the photographs in the background.

 

[mursolini]

I`m kinda disapointed that there is no progress in tersm of doctrines over 2 iterations of the game. The new system is a carbon-copy of HOI2 way, no progress, no change.

 

[aphrochine]

In general response to anyone who feels this screen is "childlish", oversimplified or dumbed down.

A complex screen is like going out on a date with a super hot, but really dumb girl. Sure, she's hot and you may even pretend that she's really smart and interesting...because you just really....REALLY hope she's everything you ever wanted. But in the end, you have to settle upon the notion that the complexity is self imagined and you really get nothing more for all that extra trim.

 

[Gamer_1745]

Yes, but 'super hot, but really dumb girls' can be a lot of fun and we will keep going out with them!

 

[Juggernaut88]

Please, Please, Please Paradox, include Wheelchair and Dog divisions as cheat codes. This could be your version of howdoyouturnthison

 

[Augustus93]

Please, Please, Please Paradox, include Wheelchair and Dog divisions as cheat codes. This could be your version of howdoyouturnthison

And bring back the aliens from HoI2.

 

[seattle]

Wow, this is such good news! HoI3 doctrines were horrible. I always researched 90% of them regardless of the nation I played.
Let's take Germany: Now you first have to decide between armour or motorized focus. More punch or more flexibility. Great for trying different approaches. Then mid-war THE choice of all choices: offense or defense! The war will probably not be decided by then, so you have to gamble. This is what the term "replay-value" was invented for.
Kudos also for the placeholder icons (skinny+chubby dude, wheelchair panzerfaust and werewolf units, awesome!).

 

[misterbean]

Historically, Stalin abandonned Deep Battle after the purges, but the massacres of 1941 pretty much forced him to rethink his options. It would be nice to have a way to say "hang on, guys. we're going about this the wrong way" and switch to "the other" branch of the same doctrine, perhaps starting at the point where the doctrines split?

I love everything I hear about HOI 4. Can't wait to see what's in store for the naval and aerial warfare.

 

[Concept2D]

Looks like a good improvement over HOI3, actual meaningful choices.

Just make sure it's balanced so that we are not left with only 1 "real" choice when playing optimally.

 

[misterbean]

Looks like a good improvement over HOI3, actual meaningful choices.

Just make sure it's balanced so that we are not left with only 1 "real" choice when playing optimally.

Ideally, now that planes and tanks and whatnot are being tracked, production capability will decide.

Britain couldn't build along the lines of the US, so they have to pick and choose their battles.
Soviets could afford to waste tons of MP if it meant giving their mobile units a free reign in the hinterland.
US could build whatever it wanted to, so they chose to go with tons of material.
And so on.
That way, the doctrine you pick, will play to your nation's strengths.

 

[ashbery76]

Look like Civ5 social policy trees.

 

[Gamer_1745]

I believe from what I have read that Stalinist propaganda over stated Soviet manpower. I think that by the end of the war they reached their limit. I could dig up more info on this, but Stalin needed lots of support from the Allies for supplies and equipment and push his production to the limit so he used up his men.

 

[Hansag]

You misunderstand the branch, it's not an elastic or mobile defense, the desperate defense path is Germany adopting Volkstrum and then further scraping the bottom of the manpower barrel to arm basically anyone who can hold a gun.

Just a thought: Why not just call the split into "Desperate Defence" for "Volksturm"? (for added flavour, just like Blitzkrieg) I can but imagine that the last concept in that line would be the "Werwolf" guerillas.

 

[Alex_brunius]

I`m kinda disapointed that there is no progress in tersm of doctrines over 2 iterations of the game. The new system is a carbon-copy of HOI2 way, no progress, no change.

How can you know that without knowing what effects the doctrines will have on how units/combat/the game at large works?

I can show you some progress right away btw. Let's look at the land doctrines in HoI2:

First thing we notice is how it's all cluttered up and hard to follow, all that is resolved in the tree lined up for HoI4, very easy to follow.

Second thing we see is the increase in actual amount of doctrines.

HoI2 Spearhead: 10 doctrines
HoI4 Blitzkrieg: 16 doctrines

HoI2 Superior firepower: 9 doctrines
HoI4 Superior firepower: 16 doctrines

HoI2 Grand battleplan: 12 doctrines
HoI4 Grand battleplan: 16 doctrines

HoI2 Human Wave: 10 doctrines
HoI4 Mass Assault: 15 doctrines

On average we have an increase of over 50% more doctrines in the trees, and much more branching hopefully leading to more interesting choices.