Hearts of Iron IV - Development Diary 4 - Land Doctrines

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Merrick Chance'

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One question for potential additions:

Perhaps a couple of one off doctrines dealing with the development of specific unit doctrines that remove limits on unit production. For instance, darkest hour's idea of an 'armored divisions' doctrine which would release the cap on how many tanks can be fielded in a division thus allowing for spearheads which would represent an institutional acceptance of tank warfare. Armored divisions would come quickly to someone using mobility doctrine but not firepower or battleplan, and could come quickly to someone using manpower. It could also unlock the ability to research other units, like mobile artillery and mechanized infantry and would give a couple of other advantages.

After this you would have 'anti-tank doctrine', which would come in around 1940 and would be more easily accessible to firepower and battleplan doctrine users. It would improve your anti-tank artillery (or add hard attack to normal artillery if we're doing away with AT-art as a unit), the hard attack of your air forces, and unlock tank destroyers.

You could have a couple of others, like paratrooper doctrines and marine doctrines (which would improve air and sea assaults respectively; these troops are so specialized that I imagine if you put access to them behind another tech that they'd never get used). Because the 'optimal' use of these forces was not determined by technology alone, if it were then the French would have won the war. Rather, similar to how skirmisher tactics were only reluctantly accepted over the 18th and 19th centuries, organizational limitations formed one of the largest barriers to the application of innovative strategies.

Hey, Germany could`ve won a version of WW2, if it managed to not fight SU and keep US neutrall.

OR, on a more serious note, it needed to wait at least a decade and British and French empires would start collapsing naturally and Germany could`ve deliver a winning blow, where occupation of heartland of France and submarine blockade of GB would mean independance movements couldn`t be quelled abroad, and GB&France would have to either go down in flames like Russia in WW1, or peace out favourably for Germany.

The collapse of the British & French empires were anything but 'natural', massive social changes rarely were. Beyond that Hitler faced the same problem that the Kaiser did twenty years earlier, the longer he waited the more developed and competitive Russia became.
 

Rubidium

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The collapse of the British & French empires were anything but 'natural', massive social changes rarely were. Beyond that Hitler faced the same problem that the Kaiser did twenty years earlier, the longer he waited the more developed and competitive Russia became.
I don't know about the first bit; India was already on its way out (as was the Philippines for the US) and, of course, people like Ho Chi Minh were already making noise. WWII may have accelerated the process, but colonial empires were doomed to fall sooner rather than later.

Your point about Russia, however, is definitely valid.
 

Merrick Chance'

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I don't know about the first bit; India was already on its way out (as was the Philippines for the US) and, of course, people like Ho Chi Minh were already making noise. WWII may have accelerated the process, but colonial empires were doomed to fall sooner rather than later.

Your point about Russia, however, is definitely valid.

Ho Chi Minh (and more strongly the Algerian rebels) would both have to win long wars against France to claim their independence, it was hardly a natural process. And Who's to say that a British empire that isn't weakened from war wouldn't do its best to keep hold of India?
 

Rubidium

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Ho Chi Minh (and more strongly the Algerian rebels) would both have to win long wars against France to claim their independence, it was hardly a natural process. And Who's to say that a British empire that isn't weakened from war wouldn't do its best to keep hold of India?
The bit where there were 300 million people in India, and that number was still growing? That the Indian independence movement was very much a powerful force already, which had already forced the Conservatives to concede to reforms? That both the US and USSR had strongly criticized European imperialism, and were likely to continue to do so? And once India is gone, the rest of the Empire is just an enormous money sink that doesn't want the British to stay there anyway.

The empires were becoming increasingly unsustainable, and the Europeans would have to face that fact at some point. Whether they tried to act like France in Algeria and Indochina, or decided to let the colonies go, the Europeans can't possibly expect to continue to keep that many people under their control; eventually they are going to need to cut their losses and run. The colonial empires were not sustainable; World War II may have accelerated their collapse, but it didn't cause it.

EDIT: wait, how did we get onto talking about decolonization from land doctrines anyway?
 

Tufto

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Oh this looks excellent. It's actually possible to understand without being a mathematician, a hardcore wargamer or someone with too much time on their hands, and the only complexity gotten rid of is needless fluff. Looks magnificent, Paradox :).
 

StephenT

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Not really interested in being "pigeonholed" into a certain doctrine. Just reading the article makes me about 10x less likely to play the game.
Yes, it's awful that we're going to be pigeonholed, and not allowed to change doctrines if we–

"Swap out of it?" I hear you say. Yes, you can change your Doctrine path if you want. This will come at a cost.
Oh wait, no, we're not pigeonholed after all!
 

RickInVA

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A specific game component, like Doctrines, does not have to be "Liberty Hall" take-what-you-want to be a good, or even great, component. In the real world there are generally trade offs, if you have X you can't have Y. Why? Because there is only so much time in the day and so much ability for people to learn. You can't emphasize both offense and defense. Why you ask? Because what are you de-emphasizing? Pick one!

So I am thrilled that a game of HOI4, in regard to doctrines, won't be "research all of them" but will actually require thoughtful choice. YMMV
 

Secret Master

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I have no aversion to choices having consequences in the doctrine tree, so long as we can swap doctrines for a cost later. (A respec, if you will.)

Also, he indicated that some doctrines were in multiple trees. That indicates to me that things may not be as mutually exclusive as we might think.
 

donofwar3

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Having read bit of this. I like what I see. Being able to change the Land Doctrines is all good with me. So If I want a more Mobile Land base Army I can. No More hording Troops. I feel the Red Tide coming up.
 

Merrick Chance'

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I think he means the whole doctrine system to be pigeonholed and I have to agree. Without knowing specifics this is hard to tell how flexible it is.

That's the nature of doctrines though, it's hard to change them because they're ingrained into an institution's culture.
 

SFSLovenought

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The reason I loathe this concept is because, if EUIV is any guide, some decisions will be superior to others. The whole "re-speccing" makes me recall WoW, and changing from "Tank" to "DPS" spec. It is facetious to do this with nations. It's a bad game design decision. I predict it will be a failed execution.

Yes, some doctrines WILL be superior to others for different countries.
I completely support some doctrines being insane choices for certain countries or ideologies, and some being completely superior to all other options - as long as this varies from country to country.

Or do you think Human Wave should be just as much a valid and sane choice for the USA as Superior Firepower?
Or maybe the Chinese should be able to benefit from the Superior Firepower Doctrines, even though they have a handfull of tanks and planes?

Heaven forbid some doctrines be a "Superior choice" .That would just be unbalanced.
 

LodovicoAriosto

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I hope there is more customization and variability in land doctrines than the screenshot shows. Land doctrines of various countries and their changes over time can hardly be portrayed by 4 narrow branches. Also, shock and awe? seriously? Sure, there should be predispositions etc. so that land doctrine traditions are present and have weight but this looks too arcadey and more importantly too predictable. This would also limit replayability and innovation + surprise elements in multiplayer.

Less arcade stuff, less perks, less rpg, less unique units - more simulation - I would appreciate that.
 
Last edited:

Meanmanturbo

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Yes, it is superficially similar to the Company of Heroes doctrine tree.

It also looks kind of like the tech, skill, doctrine, level, trait or perk development trees in countless other videogames.

To me it looks a lot like the HOI 2 tree. Fascinating what the graphical style does to peoples perceptions.
 

Merrick Chance'

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Yes, some doctrines WILL be superior to others for different countries.
I completely support some doctrines being insane choices for certain countries or ideologies, and some being completely superior to all other options - as long as this varies from country to country.

Or do you think Human Wave should be just as much a valid and sane choice for the USA as Superior Firepower?
Or maybe the Chinese should be able to benefit from the Superior Firepower Doctrines, even though they have a handfull of tanks and planes?

Heaven forbid some doctrines be a "Superior choice" .That would just be unbalanced.

Yeah there's a reason that the USSR and China chose human wave over, say, superior firepower--human wave is for countries with a high ratio of manpower to IC. Spearhead doctrine (AKA a highly mechanized force) is for the opposite, and superior firepower and grand battleplan are for countries in the middle, focusing on offense and defense respectively.