Hearts of Iron IV - Development Diary 4 - Land Doctrines

[euskai]

Erggh . . . seriously? The forum is full of threads using these words to make jokes about fanbois who insist on shouting "MAINSTREAM!" "CASUALISED!" every time the devs announce something that doesn't literally require you to bore yourself to death with micro-management, or who panic when they see anything that implies that the game might actually be, yer know, enjoyable to play?

So, a bunch of people calling names and ridiculizing anyone making criticism proves the games will not be dumbed down. Yeah right...

The game will be dumbed down or it won´t, but that´s not a valid argument.

Also, how does

"fanbois who insist on shouting "TOO COMPLEX!" "BORED, I DONT UNDERSTAND!!" every time the devs announce something that requires you to think for a second, or who panic when they see anything that implies using their brain so the game gets, yer know, enjoyable to play? "

sound?

Not much of an argument is it? Then don´t do the same.

You are assuming anyone that doesn´t agree with you is whining so they can get a boring game instead of a fun one.

Ad hominent arguments doesn´t add anyting to the discussion, don´t do that to the tread and to yourself.

 

[NikephorosSonar]

Tuckachevsky's ideas had some modern rings to it, but as far as doctrine was concerned it was a mess. He advocated for the lots of lightly armoured tanks, without any thought for the communication and coordination of the unit as a whole. Equally some of his ideas were simply bad, like the love for "universal" guns, and bad recoilless gun designs.

Was he the one who envisioned an army of 100K tanks?

 

[Merrick Chance']

Was he the one who envisioned an army of 100K tanks?

To be fair so did a lot of theorists in the 20s and 30s

 

[Beagá]

Hmm.

Tuckachevsky's ideas had some modern rings to it, but as far as doctrine was concerned it was a mess. He advocated for the lots of lightly armoured tanks, without any thought for the communication and coordination of the unit as a whole. Equally some of his ideas were simply bad, like the love for "universal" guns, and bad recoilless gun designs.

Same with paratroops. It was all good designating a couple of divisions "paratroopers", but no specialist equipment was sought for the paratroopers. Hell, the wasn't even enough transport planes to drop more a few batallions.

No one was sure about how to use tanks until 1940. You aren´t really being fair. There were way more delusional people.

Real world experience changed the way many people thought about MANY weapons. Not only tanks, but also aircraft (and battleships). But it´s easier to make na open-minded guy move forward than idiots like Kulik.

 

[jackda]

But it´s easier to make na open-minded guy move forward than idiots like Kulik.

Or even worse, the awful trio Budienny/Voroshilov/Stalin.

 

[Avindian]

Or even worse, the awful trio Budienny/Voroshilov/Stalin.

Budyonny had lots of courage, which counts for something. Stalin wasn't awful at the broad administrative strokes of war; he learned to get out of the way and delegate, which Hitler never did.

Voroshilov... uh... I heard he looked pretty good in a uniform?

 

[HMS Enterprize]

Bit late to the discussion but Im very sad (and unfortunately not surprised) to see that the blitzkrieg path (and yes I know, its alpha blah blah) still has a total cop out Volksturm & modern blitzkrieg late/post war doctrines...

This doesn't make sense.

Volksturm was a reaction to a very specific set of German circumstances, it is clearly not an evolution of post-war doctrine. And 'Modern Blitzkrieg' is just lazy (and was included in HOI2 by the way).

I modded HOI2 to include what I thought would be 2 plausible post-war mobility doctrines, which for the sake of this thread we will call 1) Combined Arms Vertical Envelopment Doctrine & 2) Enhanced CAS Doctrine.

So the mobility followers could choose between integrating paratroops more closely with blitzkrieg or developing even better CAS, early choppers, better attack planes & how to integrate them into the army etc.

 

[NikephorosSonar]

Volksturm was a reaction to a very specific set of German circumstances, it is clearly not an evolution of post-war doctrine. And 'Modern Blitzkrieg' is just lazy (and was included in HOI2 by the way).

You're misunderstanding the tree. They aren't both "modern" doctrines. "Desperate Defense" represents the last ditch efforts by Nazi Germany to hold off the Allies. "Modern Blitzkrieg" posits a victorious Germany further refining the tools that led them to victory.

 

[Barvinok]

Will there be a set of common land doctrines that would cover reducing attack delay, increasing movement speed and the like?

 

[Bellicosity]

Really excited for HOI4 and I love the updates.

This change to doctrines is a great move imho. HOI3 was too much of 'research all the things' especially for the majors. Being forced to make a decision then plan around it sounds awesome.

 

[telesien]

Will there be a set of common land doctrines that would cover reducing attack delay, increasing movement speed and the like?

I belive Podcat already hinted, that he wasn't satisfied with the delay mechanics in HoI3, so we might see something completely different.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

I belive Podcat already hinted, that he wasn't satisfied with the delay mechanics in HoI3, so we might see something completely different.

We know that you will make plans with a battle planer tool were you get bonuses if the units takes time to prepare, but the plans can be intercepted by espionage. From the description of the doctrines it looks like the Blitzkrieg doctrine will lower the time needed for a full bonus, while Grand Battle-plan will make the bonuses larger.

Edit

If that's how it works it would be really cool and make the UK and Germany play quite differently role playing wise.

Don't know if the following statement was true or exaggerated for effect, but here goes:
In British officer training the cadet get allotted 1 hour to make a perfect plan, in German the cadet gets 5 minutes to make a good enough plan.
If that difference in mentality is in, then cool.

 

[Klausewitz]

Tukhachevsky, the progenitor of Deep Battle (and to an extent, blitzkrieg),

Give me a Euro for every inventor of 'Blitzkrieg' and one for everybody claiming to have THE IDEA that could have won the war for Germany, and i won't need to work another hour in my life.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Give me a Euro for every inventor of 'Blitzkrieg' and one for everybody claiming to have THE IDEA that could have won the war for Germany, and i won't need to work another hour in my life.

So military ideas are like video game concepts. They are only with anything when put into practice. Need a AAA publish....I mean great power to fork up the cash

 

[Secret Master]

Give me a Euro for every inventor of 'Blitzkrieg' and one for everybody claiming to have THE IDEA that could have won the war for Germany, and i won't need to work another hour in my life.

But... but... I do have an idea that could have won the war for Germany.

Of course, I stole it from Hjalmar Schacht, so there's that.

 

[Klausewitz]

But... but... I do have an idea that could have won the war for Germany.

Of course, I stole it from Hjalmar Schacht, so there's that.

You owe me a Euro.

 

[mursolini]

But... but... I do have an idea that could have won the war for Germany.

Of course, I stole it from Hjalmar Schacht, so there's that.

Hey, Germany could`ve won a version of WW2, if it managed to not fight SU and keep US neutrall.

OR, on a more serious note, it needed to wait at least a decade and British and French empires would start collapsing naturally and Germany could`ve deliver a winning blow, where occupation of heartland of France and submarine blockade of GB would mean independance movements couldn`t be quelled abroad, and GB&France would have to either go down in flames like Russia in WW1, or peace out favourably for Germany.

 

[telesien]

We know that you will make plans with a battle planer tool were you get bonuses if the units takes time to prepare, but the plans can be intercepted by espionage. From the description of the doctrines it looks like the Blitzkrieg doctrine will lower the time needed for a full bonus, while Grand Battle-plan will make the bonuses larger.

Edit

If that's how it works it would be really cool and make the UK and Germany play quite differently role playing wise.

Don't know if the following statement was true or exaggerated for effect, but here goes:
In British officer training the cadet get allotted 1 hour to make a perfect plan, in German the cadet gets 5 minutes to make a good enough plan.
If that difference in mentality is in, then cool.

Sounds very spot on. It fits what we know, what makes sense and it sounds like something Podcat would want to implement.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Sounds very spot on. It fits what we know, what makes sense and it sounds like something Podcat would want to implement.

One can hope. If the doctrines really change play style so as the Germans your strength lies in improvising and finding and quickly exploiting gaps and openings while as the British you are better served in preparing meticulously planned massive operations. If the doctrines can actually accomplish this, then well done.

 

[scroggin]

You're misunderstanding the tree. They aren't both "modern" doctrines. "Desperate Defense" represents the last ditch efforts by Nazi Germany to hold off the Allies. "Modern Blitzkrieg" posits a victorious Germany further refining the tools that led them to victory.

I would say the tree is wrong, desperate defence doesn't belong in the mobile warfare tree. It should either be a decision outside of the doctrine tree able to be taken up by any nation, or it should be in the mass assault tree and the german decision to set up the volksturm should be a switch of doctrines.

By the way other than this one issue I love the new land doctrines system. The developers have done a great job.