Hearts of Iron IV - Development Diary 4 - Land Doctrines

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

mursolini

Field Marshal
16 Badges
Feb 1, 2014
3.343
3.534
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II
Yeah, really. I'd suggest you read up on what Blitzkrieg is. In no place did I say that the Germans didn't coordinate support weapons well, that in fact was the point of Blitzkrieg. It was very different from what the Americans did. All major nations at times used Blitzkrieg like strategies when able, but it wasn't the doctrine that their whole army was based on, which was in fact the case for Germany.
Again, I sugest you to get your arguments straight. First you claim that it was not about equipment but about usage. Then you were pointed out to the fact that all nations used as much support as was aviavable and Germans used support in precicely the same way as Americans did, when they had similar advantage, and it was not a doctrine choice, but a quastion of aviavable equipment.
Now you sugest that it was very different from what Americans did. However you can`t seem to find the difference outside of "Americans had overwhelming artillery advantage in later portions of war", which, again points to equipment quantity being the difference, while tactics being same.
 

Alex_brunius

Field Marshal
68 Badges
Mar 24, 2006
22.404
5.017
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • War of the Roses
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Magicka 2
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Achtung Panzer
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • PDXCON 2017 Gold Ticket holder
  • Surviving Mars
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Deus Vult
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
As I said, what you care is about the number of doctrines, what i care about the way I customise my forces to fight the war according to my strategy.
That is why I find the lack of progress, while you find the 50% more techs and a few extra branches to be progress enough

My point was, if you don't care about number of doctrines I am guessing you think it would be fine with only 3 doctrines to research?
How much choice is it then? How much can you customize your force with only 3 doctrines to research?

Can't you see how these concepts are linked?

The more doctrines available to research spread out over more paths, the more flexibility there is and the more you can customize.

And as I pointed out it's far more progress then just "a few extra branches". More then half of the doctrine trees are now made up of the extra branches instead of a small 10%. Your choices will impact the entire doctrine, not just a very small part of it.


I will try again to make my point clear:
In the HoI4 doctrine draft page you can choose to skip 48 doctrines by selecting another path, that is more then all doctrines in the HoI2 doctrine page IN TOTAL.
 
Last edited:

208

General
95 Badges
Jan 4, 2004
1.918
1.447
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Elven Legacy Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Lead and Gold
  • Magicka
Nope it was the other way round. A soviet late war tank regiment was made up of 21 tanks - less than a German batallion. Soviet late war Tank Corps and Mechanised corps were smaller than a panzer division.

Due to suffereing from manpower shortages, the soviet late war doctrine favoured massed artillery, support, engineering, armor and small numbers of men actually going into combat.

Thanks. Do you have a reference for this? It is counter to all my WW2 wargaming experience (which I would be happy to correct/update).
 

Sepulcher

First Lieutenant
6 Badges
Mar 11, 2013
212
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome: Vae Victis
Just ignore Beaga, he's one of those people who complain about everything.
 

Daelyn75

Field Marshal
87 Badges
Jun 10, 2003
3.148
803
www.youtube.com
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Again, I sugest you to get your arguments straight. First you claim that it was not about equipment but about usage. Then you were pointed out to the fact that all nations used as much support as was aviavable and Germans used support in precicely the same way as Americans did, when they had similar advantage, and it was not a doctrine choice, but a quastion of aviavable equipment.
Now you sugest that it was very different from what Americans did. However you can`t seem to find the difference outside of "Americans had overwhelming artillery advantage in later portions of war", which, again points to equipment quantity being the difference, while tactics being same.

Doctrine is about using equipment, I was responding to Beaga who said, "The whole notion of doctrine is VERY forced. Superior Firepower for example would imply the german and soviet artillery was inferior. That´s not the case - they just didn´t have the resources of its american couterpart."

The USA had the production and doctrine to use large amounts of firepower which includes heavy amounts of artillery, Air, and sea support whenever they found opposition. That's all it meant. I was saying it wasn't that german and soviet artillery was inferior. It's about usage of what equipment that nation as able to field, not who has better equipment. Otherwise Germany would have lost simply due to their tanks being inferior to the French/British in 1940, and the T-34 in 1941.

No where did I write about equipment. I wrote - "It has nothing to do with weapons, equipment, or soldier quality" See the last word? Quality, quality for weapons, quality for equipment, and quality for soldiers. That's what that meant.
 
Last edited:

dsteve3

Lt. General
93 Badges
Oct 17, 2002
1.352
222
forum.paradoxplaza.com
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • East India Company
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Majesty 2 Collection
Wheelchair RPG troops! Guessing it's the conscription of young and elderly to fight?


No, no no - when I was in the Infantry Reserves, a fellow we called "Roadie" came up with the concept of armchair warfare. You lay back in an EZ-Boy, and every now and again, you wake up and shoot someone on the other side of the field.

You'd have to be sure to weather-proof your chair, though, ...
 

mursolini

Field Marshal
16 Badges
Feb 1, 2014
3.343
3.534
  • Darkest Hour
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II
My point was, if you don't care about number of doctrines I am guessing you think it would be fine with only 3 doctrines to research?
How much choice is it then? How much can you customize your force with only 3 doctrines to research?

Can't you see how these concepts are linked?

The more doctrines available to research spread out over more paths, the more flexibility there is and the more you can customize.

And as I pointed out it's far more progress then just "a few extra branches". More then half of the doctrine trees are now made up of the extra branches instead of a small 10%. Your choices will impact the entire doctrine, not just a very small part of it.


I will try again to make my point clear:
In the HoI4 doctrine draft page you can choose to skip 48 doctrines by selecting another path, that is more then all doctrines in the HoI2 doctrine page IN TOTAL.
I don`t know why you continue this. I never argued that HOI4 has less doctrines. I argue that in case of strict linear progression, you`re making only the choice to pick particular doctrine brances, the number of techs that it contains is irrelevant as only choice to take particular branch metter here.

Then, I argued that the system doesn`t have gameplay progress compared to HOI2 setup, with which you basically agree.
Then i argued that the system of doctrines is a copy of HOI2 way of how doctrines were working. Again, you have no complains here.

So, aperently, you argue that there is "progress" is in terms of number of "options".
I argue that there is no progress as the way you obtain and pick doctrines is the same as in HOI2, and there is no gameplay involvment in getting your doctrine to suit your strategy. Doctrines are pre-set and unflexible, you chose one and never have to put any efforts to make it work, nor does it accounts for any special circumstances you may find yourself in if it is not already pre-set by doctrine.
I find that to be lack of progress and lack of gameplay improvements.

The two vievs do not conflict, however your strawmens about the number of dictrines are tiresome and apear to be the only reason you keep arguing.
 

vonhavoc

First Lieutenant
71 Badges
May 3, 2012
254
11
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Knights of Honor
Yeah, really. I'd suggest you read up on what Blitzkrieg is. In no place did I say that the Germans didn't coordinate support weapons well, that in fact was the point of Blitzkrieg. It was very different from what the Americans did. All major nations at times used Blitzkrieg like strategies when able, but it wasn't the doctrine that their whole army was based on, which was in fact the case for Germany.

As I had said . . The USA when upon encountering resistance would use heavy firepower to break, and or weaken it. They did not base their doctrine around flowing tanks and mechanized units through weak spots to encircle and destroy like the Germans did. This was what happened to France in 1940 when Germany cut the allied force from the south and surrounded and destroyed them through Belgium and the Netherlands, and this is also what Germany did many times to the Soviets in 1941, and tried to do so with much smaller success in 1942 but then got caught up in Stalingrad and failed to follow the doctrine of Blitzkrieg because Hitler had to have Stalingrad at all costs.

What would you say was the following action to the Stalingrad failure, on the German side? And I do not mean Kursk, but immediately after Stalingrad. Would you say the defensive action was more of a mobile/elastic defence with counterattacks or a "desperate defence".

The more I look at this doctrine tree it bugs me to no end how "desperate defence" is part of the blitzkrieg tree, even as a branch. Mobile defence would fit much better as a rational solution to grinding a huge opponent, say Soviet Union, to it's knees. Secondly, ANY nation should and would if needed have the option for desperation. It's not like the soviets wouldn't have done it. Or anyone else stubborn enough to go down swinging. At least the desperation part should be separated as a special tree to be used by all during a rainy day.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

vonhavoc

First Lieutenant
71 Badges
May 3, 2012
254
11
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Knights of Honor
Again, I sugest you to get your arguments straight. First you claim that it was not about equipment but about usage. Then you were pointed out to the fact that all nations used as much support as was aviavable and Germans used support in precicely the same way as Americans did, when they had similar advantage, and it was not a doctrine choice, but a quastion of aviavable equipment.
Now you sugest that it was very different from what Americans did. However you can`t seem to find the difference outside of "Americans had overwhelming artillery advantage in later portions of war", which, again points to equipment quantity being the difference, while tactics being same.

The problem stems from the fact that blitzkrieg never was a doctrine, but a combination, or rather a result of many. This PI very well knows, as stated in the original post, but they still made it special. A bit too special...
 

scroggin

Lt. General
20 Badges
Jul 13, 2010
1.685
717
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
The more I think about the system of land doctrines in the development diary, the more I like it. I like the fact that you can change between doctrine trees. I like the way that its set out so its easy to see and understand.

The thing that will really make or break it will be how much advantage you can get from the different doctrines. If its too little they will be irrelevant. If its to large they will make the game unbalanced.

attachment - Copy.jpg
My guess is that these two icons are "Forward artillery control" and "Counter artillery fire"
 

Centurion1973

General
10 Badges
Aug 16, 2011
2.053
1.160
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Battle for Bosporus
The more I look at this doctrine tree it bugs me to no end how "desperate defence" is part of the blitzkrieg tree, even as a branch. Mobile defence would fit much better as a rational solution to grinding a huge opponent, say Soviet Union, to it's knees. Secondly, ANY nation should and would if needed have the option for desperation. It's not like the soviets wouldn't have done it. Or anyone else stubborn enough to go down swinging. At least the desperation part should be separated as a special tree to be used by all during a rainy day.

I agree that mobile defense would be more reallistic alternative within same doctrine and "Desperate defense" should be option available to any nation outside of normal doctrine.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

RickInVA

Major
72 Badges
Apr 23, 2010
606
447
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2
I'm not sure there is another, better, way, but I do have some reservation that researching a doctrine (staff studies, war gaming simulations, etc.) should result in immediate benefit. I'm sure that we can say that when it is done being researched that means it has been "proven" and implemented throughout your forces but even though this is a game that seems more than a bit artificial.

One thing that comes to mind is a "over time and use" method, where once you have researched a doctrine you then need to use it in combat to gain the full benefits of it (on the job training as it were). Since a new doctrine would involve staff studies and simulations before it was adopted there certainly could be some immediate benefit, but the maximium benefit should probably happen over time as that countries forces fully embrace the new doctrine. This could also be a method for first movers in a doctrine (Germany with Blitzkrieg for example) would build up a large doctrinal advantage over time while a "late comer" to that doctrine would not instantly gain the same bonuses from that doctrine.

So I could see that if country X gets a new Doctrine that they get a +5% bonus to something, and that as the appropriate units are involved in combat that this bonus slowly increases until it hits a maximum of, perhaps, +25%. There could also be an increase over time for countries at peace representing training, but at a much lower rate.

Just a thought, but it avoids some of the artificial impacts of some of the current systems, where one day you know nothing and the next you are an expert; and the situation where your country has been specializing in a certain doctrine from 1936 to 1944, and when your opponent gains it in 1945 they are all of a sudden just as good at it as you are.
 

llib

Colonel
96 Badges
Oct 7, 2005
846
114
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Lead and Gold
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Majesty 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Ancient Space
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
Doctrines are fine, as long as Blondie is in! ;-)

As for desperate defences and "wheelchair" troops:
One example is "whitebread" division
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/70th_Infantry_Division_(Wehrmacht)

The other (and more typical I suppose for this purpose) is Volkssturm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturm
As you can read there, it's Heinz "Blitz" Guderian that came up with it, although it was hijacked by Nazi aparatus and what started as idea to employ mostly not as physically capable manpower in role that would minimize it's disadvantages(i.e. more or less static defense line that would free field units for maneuver/mobile reserve/counterattack force) ended up in completely absurd and unrealistic idea of fanatic units that would with minimal training and various disabilities inflict heavy losses on enemies while dying in the process...
Units were under-equipped, training and organization was under party control (so elderly retired high-ranking officers were soldiers whereas some Nazi party member that never smelled combat was made leader responsible for training and leading in battle - so training was pretty much speeches and maybe some parade-marching) and after that those units were not rarely put into field use as standard units, once it would get tough the Nazi "leadership" would often disappear quickly into rear and if you are guessing this all was producing great success then it turns out not to be the case.
 

Daelyn75

Field Marshal
87 Badges
Jun 10, 2003
3.148
803
www.youtube.com
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sword of the Stars
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Divine Wind
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
What would you say was the following action to the Stalingrad failure, on the German side? And I do not mean Kursk, but immediately after Stalingrad. Would you say the defensive action was more of a mobile/elastic defence with counterattacks or a "desperate defence".

The more I look at this doctrine tree it bugs me to no end how "desperate defence" is part of the blitzkrieg tree, even as a branch. Mobile defence would fit much better as a rational solution to grinding a huge opponent, say Soviet Union, to it's knees. Secondly, ANY nation should and would if needed have the option for desperation. It's not like the soviets wouldn't have done it. Or anyone else stubborn enough to go down swinging. At least the desperation part should be separated as a special tree to be used by all during a rainy day.

Definitely Mobile Defense. It's what Manstein argued for for 1943, but Hitler had to go on the offense.
 

vonhavoc

First Lieutenant
71 Badges
May 3, 2012
254
11
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Age of Wonders
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • Knights of Honor
Definitely Mobile Defense. It's what Manstein argued for for 1943, but Hitler had to go on the offense.

Exactly! And not in a way that we'd even had a disagreement.

However, in his memoirs Manstein does speak for the Kursk offensive, but not in the late summer. His plan was to attack the salient immediately after the muddy spring season had passed, and the soviets had not fully recovered from the beating they got in Kharkov and the preceding battles.

But Hitler again intervened, wanting to wait for new and untested tanks and tank destroyers, when the current ones had been doing the job more than well enough up until then.