Hearts of Iron IV - Developer Diary 9 - Vacation and Air tech

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plasticpanzers

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I hope, if anything, that will be the case and that the modders will be able to add the pics and stuff to make it so. To imagine a detailed
WW2 game without JU52 and C47s is mind-blowing.

Perhaps if they include a gallery of pictures per type you design to choose from when your ready you could choose a pic of a B25
for your bomber version and a pic of a C47 for you transport version.

Edit: on carrier fighters my brain just had an image of a bunch of ME163 taking off from the wooden deck of a German aircraft carrier
named 'Zippo'....
 
Last edited:

Axe99

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A few thoughts:

- Big props to PDS and Podcat for a dev diary while on holiday :). Enjoy the beer :).

- Carrier variants are great, but it's important to have some kind of step-down in stats (I'd need to do more research to be on top of what, but I'd expect in weight-related things, like payload and armour/survivability). Due to lower weight and needing a shorter take off and landing distance, carrier variants weren't as simple as bolting an arrestor hook on the back of a plane and saying "go for it".

- I'm a little surprised at the removal of transports. There were over 10,000 C-47s/Dakota's produced in WW2, with a further 5,000 or so Li-2's (the Soviet variant) also produced, more than the vast majority of aircraft of any model that are represented in the tech tree, and this is a strategic game. I highly doubt that transport aircraft would have been produced in these quantities if they weren't strategically relevant.Further, the C-47/Dakota didn't have a military role beyond the transportation of goods or paratroops. It's worth noting that the only transport that had a temporary bombing role of any scale, the Ju-52, was only in this position because of Germany rebuilding it's airforce in secret, and the plans for its first true bomber (the Dornier 11) being a failure. After the invasion of Poland, the Ju-52 was no longer used as a bomber. Were these aircraft truly interchangeable (and had no other purpose), rather than being poor substitutes then why didn't Germany use the Ju-52 as a bomber in other theatres, or the allies press-gang DC-3s into service early in the war as bombers? From memory, no bombers were made using either the Ju-52 or the DC-3 as a base as well - their basic airframes were of substantially different design than that required by bomber aircraft.

The worst part about this, though, is abstracting this way will have an impact on gameplay. If we do this, then Normandy and Market Garden will be carried out by what - B-17s and Wellingtons, so they won't be available to provide the actual bomber support given by these aircraft at the time, or will the allies and Germany simply have 10,000+ more bombers than they actually had during the war? Either solution is ahistorical and (to riff on Market Garden/Nijmegen Bridge) in my view 'an abstraction too far' (and it literally makes more sense to have dive bombers abstracted by fighters than to have transports abstracted by bombers).

A simple alternative is to build into the game the other purposes for these aircraft that they actually undertook during the war - abstracted of course - so maybe have these aircraft provide a bonus to the supply chain while they're not paradropping or providing operational airdrops like Stalingrad or Bastogne. Have them included wherever the 'meta' supply information is looked after, with an option of extracting them from the supply chain and using them operationally. It's not like the C-47s used in Market Garden or Bastogne were just sitting around doing nothing for the rest of their operational life - they were providing support to the Allied and Axis war effort, which was not provided by bombers or other classes of aircraft.
 

plasticpanzers

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I want to thank Podcast too for time taken to update us with this DD. My intent is not to be just a fanboy but offer constructive critisism of
parts of info released to us.

Interesting as well is that Japan built almost 500 DC3 variants LD2 I believe (of course they didn't pay royalties to Douglas for them).

Again, having bombers do this double duty does not make the game simpler it complicates it by having to retask aircraft to do jobs they were
simply not designed for while leaving out an entire class of aircraft.

Simply allow the players to 'adapt' the research on 2 and 4 engine bomber designs to 'open' (like carrier aircraft) the transport verisons and
give us a gallery of mulitiple pictures of bombers and transports that players can adapt their designs too. Simply make it when choosing the
TR version of the bomber it gets the Transport capacity and the bomber does not. This maintains your tech tree but simply adds 2 x 2-engine
transport types and 2 x 4-engine transport types.

Do not saddle us with a system that makes no sense for bombers but does for a dedicated transport type. Give us our history back. To simple
is to bad.
 
Last edited:

Vonboe

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Interesting as well is that Japan built almost 500 DC3 variants LD2 I believe (of course they didn't pay royalties to Douglas for them).

Ahm, Nakajima acquired the license rights to build DC-3's back in 1938
 

plasticpanzers

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Ahm back at ya! After Dec 41 Japan certainly stopped paying Douglas for the rights to built about 400 more! :)
 

Vonboe

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Ahm back at ya! After Dec 41 Japan certainly stopped paying Douglas for the rights to built about 400 more! :)

Really,,, "After Dec 41",,,,,, -_- Pretty sure even if Nakajima wanted to pay for the rights, Douglas wasn't allowed to take the money. :rofl:
In that case you could just as well argue that the L2D Japan build after december 41 was reverse engineering and wouldn't need a license. Since Nakajima wasn't able to import many of the components used for the DC3, the L2D build after 41 was very different to the original DC-3.
 

Axe99

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That's a top idea PP - having them as bomber variants would keep the tech tree simplified, but still make them possible.

On the by, didn't mention it in OP, but other than the omission of transport aircraft, the rest of the DD sounds great :D.
 

Sacer

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- I'm a little surprised at the removal of transports. There were over 10,000 C-47s/Dakota's produced in WW2, with a further 5,000 or so Li-2's (the Soviet variant) also produced, more than the vast majority of aircraft of any model that are represented in the tech tree, and this is a strategic game. I highly doubt that transport aircraft would have been produced in these quantities if they weren't strategically relevant.Further, the C-47/Dakota didn't have a military role beyond the transportation of goods or paratroops. It's worth noting that the only transport that had a temporary bombing role of any scale, the Ju-52, was only in this position because of Germany rebuilding it's airforce in secret, and the plans for its first true bomber (the Dornier 11) being a failure. After the invasion of Poland, the Ju-52 was no longer used as a bomber. Were these aircraft truly interchangeable (and had no other purpose), rather than being poor substitutes then why didn't Germany use the Ju-52 as a bomber in other theatres, or the allies press-gang DC-3s into service early in the war as bombers? From memory, no bombers were made using either the Ju-52 or the DC-3 as a base as well - their basic airframes were of substantially different design than that required by bomber aircraft

The Junkers Ju 52 was one of the most produced aicraft by Germany too, with roughly 5000 produced
 

plasticpanzers

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Have it so when you increase the bomb capacity it reduces the transport capacity so early on you can have the JU52 'bomber/transport'
but as you increase the bomb capacity it will loose all transport capacity and become a full time bomber for both twin and four engine
aircraft. That way folks will engineer their way to competent and separate bombers and transports based on the same aircraft tech tree.
The AI should then still be able to recognize aircraft with transport ability and those with bomber ability and use them properly but to the
AI they are still both 'bombers'. Just have different artwork and be able to change the names manually.

Also have mulitiple choosable artwork for other aircraft so you can choose the pic of the F4F Wildcat for your carrier instead of the P40
then F4U Corsair instead of the midwar one and F6F Hellcat for the 44 one. That way you can customize the names and pictures of
basically the same aircraft doing different duty or areas.
 
Last edited:

podcat

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plasticpanzers

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Only the LI-2VV and it had belly racks for 4 small bombs under the body and 2 or so in a rudimentary bomb bay. with usually no aiming device hardly a bomber but a small bomb equipped civilian plane (like in 'The Flying Tigers' John Wayne movie'). You are talking only about a few out of all produced. Shame on you reaching for straws like that for an argument for your bomber-transport! :rofl:
 
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podcat

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Only the LI-2VV and it had belly racks for 4 small bombs.

A B-25 carries 1.4t bomb load and a LI-2VV carries 1t and could carry 2t on short trips. Not everything is worth modeling if you want manageable gameplay etc. I'm sure people will mod in all sorts of special aircraft.
 

plasticpanzers

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On a Russian site i hear mentioned crew 'heaved' bombs out the cargo door. Truly then a bomber-transport (cough). Are you seriously
comparing the B25 and LI-2VV as compariable planes and stating the Russian one is a better bomber based on that info you provide? I
also read that due to the 'center spar' that makes up a transports strength in hauling prevents a more 'robust' bombay without collapsing
the plane in trying to carry too much centerline. here is a pic of the 'LI2VV' underbelly...

TN_23.jpg


PS: modding a "special" aircraft???? The C47 and JU52???? Are we talking about the same war?
 
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podcat

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I never claimed it was equivalent to a B-25, I am just pointing out its a lot more gray zone than you claim.

A better example of a bomber/transport is the German He 111. It does a lot of good from a gameplay standpoint to be able to use your older designs as transports (obviously its wasteful to use the best).
 
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plasticpanzers

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There is alot less grey and alot more open space. I read more on it and on another site only 2 Russian 'groups' were equipped with the LI2VV
and they were considered night bombers only as they could not survive daylight attacks and did indeed throw smaller bombs and also scrap
metal and other objects out in the hope of hitting some axis soldier. You cannot have both bomber and transport in WW2. They very early
evolved away from each other into two specific groups of aircraft.

PI just can't keep cutting whole areas out of the war for 'simplicity' sake or because its 'inconvienient' to program. No air transports but a mongrel
bomber-transport fleet (10,000 aircraft just 'gone') not to mention corps assets (1,000,000 men 'gone'). How simple will the game be? How much
more of WW2 is PI going to sacrifice to the altar of "simplicity is good". You'd think with a bigger programming staff and a new engine and newer
computers you would be adding stuff to HOI4 not stripping stuff off (don't say that corps assets never existed Darkrenown, you know they did).

Where is all this programming work going to? A more cartoony map and sprites that pretend attack one another with their rifles?

What won't appear offically in HOI4 so far by what PI has inferred?

C47
JU52
HE323
US 155mm Long Tom
German 170mm guns
Any heavy artillery (up to Karl or US 240mm howitzers)
Real independent battalion sized units (Tiger battalions, US TD battalions, AAA battalions, Russian ISU Regiments, and such)
Real independent Nebelwerfer units (they are seldom divisional attachments)
 

Axe99

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A B-25 carries 1.4t bomb load and a LI-2VV carries 1t and could carry 2t on short trips. Not everything is worth modeling if you want manageable gameplay etc. I'm sure people will mod in all sorts of special aircraft.

Aye, but how's the game going to handle operations like Overlord and Market Garden that involved huge numbers of bombers and transports. It's either going to have to short change one or the other at the time, or give the allies 10-15 thousand more bombers over the course of the war than they actually had. If the vanilla game doesn't make the distinction, it has to inevitably mess with the historicity of the gameplay, and not in small ways.

As for the Li-2 VV, how many were produced, and were they in any way comparable with a Pe-2, SM-2, Ar-2 or IL-4? It sounds a bit like using a very limited historical exception to prove a rule. You could use the same logic to say that there's no need to model heavy tanks, for example - the ratio of heavy to medium tanks was far smaller than the ratio of transport to bomber aircraft. Note - I'm not suggesting we remove heavy tanks from HoI :).

I understand the need for gameplay manageability, but it'd be one extra production line for any nation that wanted air transport capability. You could then park them in the supply pool for general play, and pull them out and task them to supplying pockets and doing paradrops as required. For people that didn't use them, it's no extra burden at all, and for people that do use them, they're there. Makes a lot more sense than dropping paratroopers/ out of B-17s, Lancasters and He-111s.

Combining them all together (not PlasticPanzer's suggestion of having transport variants of bombers, which'd work fine) also means that every nation with heavy aircraft suddenly has a capacity to supply encircled troops in a pocket. No more strategic need to have a transport airfleet, just send in the heavy bombers. Even the bombers used in the Berlin airlift needed to be refitted (Lancasters that had pre-blockade been turned into commercial fuel tankers and mid-air refueling aircraft, for example), it wasn't just a case of 'let's dust off those bombers, fill 'em full of jerry cans and send them over'. That's a very real gameplay implication - and given the far greater defensive capabilities of bombers, it means any future encirclements would be far easier to maintain than in previous versions of the game, or the actual conflict.

It's a similar gameplay skewing for paratroops. Gone is the need to ensure a transport solution for your paratroop divisions. As you can simply re-task your bombers to the job, you're upping the effective capacity of every nation in the conflict to deploy divisions simultaneously. Why limit it to three divisions dropping into Market Garden when you can divert the whole of the USAAF and Bomber Command (in the ETO) for a couple of days and drop 3-4 Corps in? You could have Sicily overrun by paratroops (with air support) alone, and without the need to build up a single bit of strategic paratroop capability.

It all sounds very, very exploitable, unless we're taking paratroops out of the game as well. Just mentioning it, as it's probably easier to head off at the pass before launch, rather than try and patch to deal with army groups of paratroopers dropping from the air in the main game.
 

plasticpanzers

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It will be strange to have a B17 not only drop 16 paratroops but also tow a glider with more troops or artillery in it then turn around
and bomb the enemy with 16 250 pound bombs. Multi-tasking with a vengence.....Oh yes and shoot down a couple ME109s along
the way...."grey area" my toochis....:ninja:

Edit: please don't pull out the 'managable gameplay' cannon on me Podcast. If the AI sees a 'bomber' that cannot bomb but has
transport capacity it should be using it as a transport. If it sees a 'bomber' with no transport capacity but a bombing capacity it
should be using it for a bomber. The AI should recognize what type of aircraft to use for what type of work.
 
Last edited:

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10,000 aircraft just 'gone'

What's the difference between building 10,000 transports and building 10,000 bombers that you dedicate to transport duty only?
 

steveh11

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A B-25 carries 1.4t bomb load and a LI-2VV carries 1t and could carry 2t on short trips. Not everything is worth modeling if you want manageable gameplay etc. I'm sure people will mod in all sorts of special aircraft.

Aye, but how's the game going to handle operations like Overlord and Market Garden that involved huge numbers of bombers and transports. It's either going to have to short change one or the other at the time, or give the allies 10-15 thousand more bombers over the course of the war than they actually had. If the vanilla game doesn't make the distinction, it has to inevitably mess with the historicity of the gameplay, and not in small ways.

As for the Li-2 VV, how many were produced, and were they in any way comparable with a Pe-2, SM-2, Ar-2 or IL-4? It sounds a bit like using a very limited historical exception to prove a rule. You could use the same logic to say that there's no need to model heavy tanks, for example - the ratio of heavy to medium tanks was far smaller than the ratio of transport to bomber aircraft. Note - I'm not suggesting we remove heavy tanks from HoI :).

I understand the need for gameplay manageability, but it'd be one extra production line for any nation that wanted air transport capability. You could then park them in the supply pool for general play, and pull them out and task them to supplying pockets and doing paradrops as required. For people that didn't use them, it's no extra burden at all, and for people that do use them, they're there. Makes a lot more sense than dropping paratroopers/ out of B-17s, Lancasters and He-111s.

Combining them all together (not PlasticPanzer's suggestion of having transport variants of bombers, which'd work fine) also means that every nation with heavy aircraft suddenly has a capacity to supply encircled troops in a pocket. No more strategic need to have a transport airfleet, just send in the heavy bombers. Even the bombers used in the Berlin airlift needed to be refitted (Lancasters that had pre-blockade been turned into commercial fuel tankers and mid-air refueling aircraft, for example), it wasn't just a case of 'let's dust off those bombers, fill 'em full of jerry cans and send them over'. That's a very real gameplay implication - and given the far greater defensive capabilities of bombers, it means any future encirclements would be far easier to maintain than in previous versions of the game, or the actual conflict.

It's a similar gameplay skewing for paratroops. Gone is the need to ensure a transport solution for your paratroop divisions. As you can simply re-task your bombers to the job, you're upping the effective capacity of every nation in the conflict to deploy divisions simultaneously. Why limit it to three divisions dropping into Market Garden when you can divert the whole of the USAAF and Bomber Command (in the ETO) for a couple of days and drop 3-4 Corps in? You could have Sicily overrun by paratroops (with air support) alone, and without the need to build up a single bit of strategic paratroop capability.

It all sounds very, very exploitable, unless we're taking paratroops out of the game as well. Just mentioning it, as it's probably easier to head off at the pass before launch, rather than try and patch to deal with army groups of paratroopers dropping from the air in the main game.
Obviously we can't REALLY judge until we get our hands on the game, but this looks to be the same kind of 'gameplay improvement' as having troops automagically find transport ships when they want to cross an ocean. *Cough*
The examples of "Transport Bombers" and "Bomber transports" given so far are less than convincing.