Hearts of Iron IV - Developer Diary 9 - Vacation and Air tech

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

PlacidDragon

General
76 Badges
Feb 14, 2002
1.822
693
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Eh? What else did Germans "over-engineered"?
Over-engineered simply means "more complex than needed to be", and this goes for pretty much every mid - late war German tank (from the Tiger I and onwards.. Panther, Tiger II, all the variations of TD's (Jagdpanther/tiger, Elefant/Ferdinand, etc), and so on. It also persisted with the German fantasy/unfinished designs like the Maus, Panther II, etc.

Were there reasons for why Germany made these tanks ? Yes, absolutely.. but while for example the Panther was initially a sound design (like its name, it was supposed to be fast), Hitlers insistence on all manner of things upped the weight of the design from 30'ish tons to over 45 tons.
 

Radu

Banned
82 Badges
Dec 18, 2007
957
4.722
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
It may have been a good concept, but the execution was really bad. Terrible suspension, wrong armouring priorities, overweight for it`s engine, really hard to manufacture. Overall, "crap" label is deserved.

Suspension, transmission and engine issues are a near-constant when looking at pre-WW2 and WW2 designs. The heavier the vehicle and the newer the vehicle, the more likely these problems would continue to haunt a given armored vehicle model or other.

Even the T-34 or M4 Sherman had their fair share of teething problems in relation to mobility.

Certainly, the problems displayed by the Panther just scream "rushed out the factory door" and "degrading strategic situation". But that can hardly be attributed to the design itself given that other tanks passed through similar stages (EDIT: except whenever possible they did so away from the frontlines).

HOI4 may or may not model "rushing out the factory door" and "substituting important materials with inferior ones in case of strategic shortages", but the Panther itself, teething problems aside, can't be described as "crap".

EDIT :

Okay, okay, getting this on-topic.

Look at how the US P-51 Mustang has evolved. Had the P-51 never gotten past its initial versions it would have been known as a decent but not extraordinarily successful fighter.

The "Variants" system in HOI4 may or may not be geared towards having the "Reliability" attribute reflect this aspect of fixing "teething" problems. These kinds of problems were quite preeminent in Aircraft and Armored Vehicle design.
 
Last edited:

1alexey

Field Marshal
3 Badges
Dec 15, 2010
6.901
109
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
Suspension, transmission and engine issues are a near-constant when looking at pre-WW2 and WW2 designs. The heavier the vehicle and the newer the vehicle, the more likely these problems would continue to haunt a given armored vehicle model or other.

Even the T-34 or M4 Sherman had their fair share of teething problems in relation to mobility.

Certainly, the problems displayed by the Panther just scream "rushed out the factory door" and "degrading strategic situation". But that can hardly be attributed to the design itself given that other tanks passed through similar stages (EDIT: except whenever possible they did so away from the frontlines).

HOI4 may or may not model "rushing out the factory door" and "substituting important materials with inferior ones in case of strategic shortages", but the Panther itself, teething problems aside, can't be described as "crap".

EDIT :

Okay, okay, getting this on-topic.

Look at how the US P-51 Mustang has evolved. Had the P-51 never gotten past its initial versions it would have been known as a decent but not extraordinarily successful fighter.

The "Variants" system in HOI4 may or may not be geared towards having the "Reliability" attribute reflect this aspect of fixing "teething" problems. These kinds of problems were quite preeminent in Aircraft and Armored Vehicle design.
I said it once here, I will repeat it again.

Panther, Tiger, and Tiger 2 were build on a bad suspension for a tank. The reason why they used it, was because it was good for half-trucks.
T-34, Sherman, Pz-4, were build on better suspensions, hence they actually managed to get themselves through rough start.
After they were built, it was pretty much impossible to fix from there. It is fairly simple. If you have any doubts about it, check out more modern tanks, neither of which has anything similar, aside from a few after-war French designs that were dropped.

It was simply a bad choice, I read studies suggesting Panther could be 5-6 tonne lighter had it used better (read: more conventional) suspension.
Soviets managed to design IS-2 tank, that had 122mm cannon, 120mm front armor and 90mm side armor, that weighted weighted only 1 tonne more than Panther, and again, Soviets designed T-44 that was better protected and lighter.
Pershing, again, was lighter, better protected and with better gun.

So, yes, the vehicle was bad, because it was weight - inefficient.
 

Radu

Banned
82 Badges
Dec 18, 2007
957
4.722
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
I said it once here, I will repeat it again.

Panther, Tiger, and Tiger 2 were build on a bad suspension for a tank. The reason why they used it, was because it was good for half-trucks.
T-34, Sherman, Pz-4, were build on better suspensions, hence they actually managed to get themselves through rough start.
After they were built, it was pretty much impossible to fix from there. It is fairly simple. If you have any doubts about it, check out more modern tanks, neither of which has anything similar, aside from a few after-war French designs that were dropped.

It was simply a bad choice, I read studies suggesting Panther could be 5-6 tonne lighter had it used better (read: more conventional) suspension.
Soviets managed to design IS-2 tank, that had 122mm cannon, 120mm front armor and 90mm side armor, that weighted weighted only 1 tonne more than Panther, and again, Soviets designed T-44 that was better protected and lighter.
Pershing, again, was lighter, better protected and with better gun.

So, yes, the vehicle was bad, because it was weight - inefficient.

I'm going to disagree on that.

Not the "weight" part. Certainly the Panther was quite heavy for a "medium" tank (and heavily armored as well for the stage of the war).

But I do disagree the "inefficient" part.

Now, it's true that the suspension set-up contributed to the weight of the Panther tank. But that's part of the "trade off" nature of any human engineering endeavor.

In the case of the Panther, the suspension system was designed to, well, absorb shocks.

That's why interleaved road wheels were used for mobility, those offer superior shock absorbancy. True, it's more maintenance-intensive, especially in precarious weather conditions. And things can get really mangled up when the crap hits the fan. But the fact is, when it works, it works really well.

As for the double torsion bar suspension, again, same thing. Yes, the double torsion bar suspension results in increased weight of the tank, but it also allows for much more efficient shock absorbing than the classic torsion bar layout.

Simply put, the Panther was heavier because it had :
1) Heavier armour
2) More efficient (but at the same time more complex) suspension and wheel system

However, I fail to see how that translates to "bad".

By the same line of thinking the majority of NATO tanks are "bad" because they are "weight inefficient" since they are not using an autoloader to save weight. To proclaim that an autoloader is clearly and irrevocably superior to a human loader is a bunch of Soviet propaganda hullaballoo.

Again, I'm not saying the Panther wouldn't benefit from additional R&D or a better strategic situation, but the vehicle itself wasn't so much "bad" as it was "expensive". And yeah, "expensive", given Germany's situation mid-1943 and onwards wasn't really a plus.

But "expensive" (or rather resource/time-intensive) doesn't equal "bad".

And finally, the above points don't really translate well to HOI 4's scale. Nickel-and-diming designs for every milimeter of armor/armament and every single sprocket in its design.

Thus, at the grand-strategic level the Panther is indeed a "proto-MBT".
 

eleetsdier

Uplifted Roach
38 Badges
Aug 19, 2009
107
48
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Magicka 2
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Magicka
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • BATTLETECH
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
Hitler's meddling with the Panther is worse than we thought - it was originally intended as a Torpedo Bomber!

I think it came out of a discussion about what reliability means in the experience upgrades, and how viable old but improved designs would be versus the next air frame. At the end of the day I'm content to wait for the beta to see how it plays out before I get too concerned on this subject.
 

1alexey

Field Marshal
3 Badges
Dec 15, 2010
6.901
109
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
Now, it's true that the suspension set-up contributed to the weight of the Panther tank. But that's part of the "trade off" nature of any human engineering endeavor.

In the case of the Panther, the suspension system was designed to, well, absorb shocks.

That's why interleaved road wheels were used for mobility, those offer superior shock absorbancy. True, it's more maintenance-intensive, especially in precarious weather conditions. And things can get really mangled up when the crap hits the fan. But the fact is, when it works, it works really well.

As for the double torsion bar suspension, again, same thing. Yes, the double torsion bar suspension results in increased weight of the tank, but it also allows for much more efficient shock absorbing than the classic torsion bar layout.
Well, that is the thing, the trade off didn`t give enough of a payback, hence the design that took a bad trade off is bad/crap.

By the same line of thinking the majority of NATO tanks are "bad" because they are "weight inefficient" since they are not using an autoloader to save weight. To proclaim that an autoloader is clearly and irrevocably superior to a human loader is a bunch of Soviet propaganda hullaballoo.
That is wrong analogy. Human loader provides decent advantages, so is not using ERA can be safer for troops around.
Better shock absorption didn`t buy Panther advantage as it still couldn`t shoot when moving, it needed vertical stabiliser, ironically developed by Americans.

But I will stop arguing further.
 
Last edited:

plasticpanzers

Field Marshal
23 Badges
Oct 6, 2007
4.365
237
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pride of Nations
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Darkest Hour
Thats good because the Panther besides your arguments that hold little water is considered by the overwhelming majority of historians
to be one of, if not the best, of WW2's medium combat tanks. Virtually any book or even Google search will support this. It has less to
do with 'ease of construction' or numbers than use on the battlefield and in 2 years it earned its spot.

This is one point that Podcat and Darkrenown are totally wrong about.

EDIT: now folks will be scouring the web for statements one way or the other....

I've had 50 years to pretty much study them already so I know.
 
Last edited:

Radu

Banned
82 Badges
Dec 18, 2007
957
4.722
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
Well, that is the thing, the trade off didn`t give enough of a payback, hence the design that took a bad trade off is bad/crap.

Really. Between the Panther's firepower, armor and mobility (meaning smoother ride, not power to weight which at less than 14-to-1 is on the lower end compared to the other medium tanks like the Sherman,T-34 and Cromwell) you don't think the result was one of the best tanks of the war?

Is that your opinion as a military historian by education and trade?

Because you'll pardon me if I say that opinion (and, I'm sorry, the opinion of HOI4 designers as well... particularly in the light of the "Transport-bombers" debacle where they displayed a most callous attitude towards the realities on the ground... and air and how to best "capture" them) is weightless in the face of both battlefield testimonials (of either side) and the postwar conclusions of both military staff and academics.

In the face of all the evidence to the contrary collated over the decades, to focus on one or two engineering statistics and proclaim that vehicle "wrong" just smacks of prejudice and fixed ideas. Which as far as you go, Alexey1, I am in no position to do anything than point that out... but when it comes to the designers of HOI4, I'd expect a less frivolous dismissal of WW2 facts and postwar analysis. More focus on what WW2 research says and less focus on personal biases, that's what I expect from the dev team.
 
Last edited:

Bluestreak2k5

Colonel
59 Badges
Apr 4, 2007
1.107
267
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
Really. Between the Panther's firepower, armor and mobility (meaning smoother ride, not power to weight which at less than 14-to-1 is on the lower end compared to the other medium tanks like the Sherman,T-34 and Cromwell) you don't think the result was one of the best tanks of the war?

Is that your opinion as a military historian by education and trade?

Because you'll pardon me if I say that opinion (and, I'm sorry, the opinion of HOI4 designers as well... particularly in the light of the "Transport-bombers" debacle where they displayed a most callous attitude towards the realities on the ground... and air and how to best "capture" them) is weightless in the face of both battlefield testimonials (of either side) and the postwar conclusions of both military staff and academics.

In the face of all the evidence to the contrary collated over the decades, to focus on one or two engineering statistics and proclaim that vehicle "wrong" just smacks of prejudice and fixed ideas. Which as far as you go, Alexey1, I am in no position to do anything than point that out... but when it comes to the designers of HOI4, I'd expect a less frivolous dismissal of WW2 facts and postwar analysis. More focus on what WW2 research says and less focus on personal biases, that's what I expect from the dev team.

This is exactly why "everyone needs to take a deep breathe". EVERYONE is jumping all over the devs because Podcat let slip accidentally that bombers serve as transports as well. Nothing else was stated and he even admitted it was a mistake. Stop jumping all over the devs for something that we have no idea how it's going to work in the game. We have seen pretty much nothing on air except Strategic Zones and Air tech. We don't even know how air combat is going to work.

They could be adding in things that permanently make the plane a transport plane, or just about anything anyone can imagine but ALL of you are calling them names and to the point of insulting them for NO REASON.

As a developer I get this ALL THE TIME, because you as a user think you know better then me on what a website or program can do/should do when the product isn't even finished.
 

Filou

Sacré
16 Badges
Oct 1, 2002
5.695
85
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
Eh? What else did Germans "over-engineered"?
Artillery.
Something like 7 moving parts for the breach of a US Howitzer vs. 45 for a German piece.
 

Radu

Banned
82 Badges
Dec 18, 2007
957
4.722
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
This is exactly why "everyone needs to take a deep breathe". EVERYONE is jumping all over the devs because Podcat let slip accidentally that bombers serve as transports as well. Nothing else was stated and he even admitted it was a mistake. Stop jumping all over the devs for something that we have no idea how it's going to work in the game. We have seen pretty much nothing on air except Strategic Zones and Air tech. We don't even know how air combat is going to work.

They could be adding in things that permanently make the plane a transport plane, or just about anything anyone can imagine but ALL of you are calling them names and to the point of insulting them for NO REASON.

As a developer I get this ALL THE TIME, because you as a user think you know better then me on what a website or program can do/should do when the product isn't even finished.

But the discussion didn't center on exactly how things work, precisely because we don't know. Neither did it center on something ostensibly missing like missing art assets.

The discussion centered around Podcat's dismissive attitude. And it's not an accident. Here's his posts from this very thread :

"Bombers handle utility tasks. its mostly historical and reduces complexity enormously. " (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...d-Air-tech&p=18038575&viewfull=1#post18038575)

"Li-2 was also used as a bomber" (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...d-Air-tech&p=18041529&viewfull=1#post18041529)

"A B-25 carries 1.4t bomb load and a LI-2VV carries 1t and could carry 2t on short trips. Not everything is worth modeling if you want manageable gameplay etc. I'm sure people will mod in all sorts of special aircraft. " (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...d-Air-tech&p=18041569&viewfull=1#post18041569)

"...example of a bomber/transport is the German He 111..." (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...d-Air-tech&p=18041631&viewfull=1#post18041631)

"Transportation of course becomes more interesting gameplay wise if it ties up your otherwise important bomber force as well as allowing historical options like germany being able to use bombers for both transport and bombing." (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...d-Air-tech&p=18042028&viewfull=1#post18042028)

This isn't "accidentally" letting slip, this is sharing his view that it is in fact an acceptable abstraction to consider Bombers as Transports and vice-versa. A view that he repeatedly reinforced. Must we really re-tread everything that was said in regards to how wrong that abstraction is?

Yes, Podcat did specify that nothing was set in stone later in the thread, but that still leaves the concern that a dev team lead could hold such preposterous notions like "Bombers can act as transports, no biggie".

The mechanics that I've seen so far, they're encouraging. I'm also in a minority that understands why the Chain of Command as it was present in HOI3 doesn't make sense being included in a situation where the AI is never truly effective and the player micromanaging everything simply defeats the purpose of the delegation of responsibilities that is the cornerstone of the CoC. Why have Manstein in charge when you're going to bypass him and micromanage his units anyway?

But as cool as the mechanics are... I don't buy Paradox games for their flash. The reason why I think the CK and EU series blows Creative Assembly's series of strategy games is that Paradox takes the subject matter more seriously.

The reason why I bought, why I'd buy, Hearts of Iron games is for the accent on the subject matter than flash. The rough edges of Paradox games? I forgave those because Paradox delved into the subject matter like no other.

Well, how is taking the subject matter seriously, the true strength of Paradox, on display when one of the devs higher in the hierarchy says things like "Panther is crap". In complete defiance of all the research done so far on the subject.

Unless Paradox seeks to discard the old guard outright, I am baffled as to why the subject matter takes backseat. How the issue of "capturing" the realities on the group are trumped by such biases that fly in the face of academic research of WW2. Do the HOI 4 devs have no historical adviser whatsoever?

EDIT : I am simply disheartened that it needs to come down to members of the community educated on WW2 to come and straighten up the devs.

Any such missteps should be corrected by the (apparently absent) history buff on the team that would take them aside and explain how and why things worked like they did. And together, designer and buff, would find an acceptable solution to modelling reality without being bogged down in the endless swamp of feature creep.
 
Last edited:

Joppos

Major
35 Badges
Jan 6, 2005
764
456
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
...Transportation of course becomes more interesting gameplay wise if it ties up your otherwise important bomber force as well as allowing historical options like germany being able to use bombers for both transport and bombing...

I had completely missed that statement. I'll admit, it's a bit upsetting. The former implies completely arbitrary and ahistorical, forced choices as a good way of introducing gameplay elements; Not unlike these dumb hypotheticals, such as having units move faster the more battles they've won, using points to momentarily boost a units strength and firepower or not being able to use inf and arm in the same battles. It is in direct contrast to what the game is being advertised as and i quote, "The most authentic real-time simulation of the war".

It seems like a genuinely bad decision to force the player to make decisions that weren't necessarily decisions at all. As Germany sure, the player might only have bombers and be forced to use them in transport roles. But the player might also want to see how a Germany which did build dedicated transports and airborne troops, play out. For a US player it's simply crazy nonsensical to have to choose, and crazy to have to build even more expensive bombers if wanting to bomb and transport simultaneously. Decisions like this should come from the context of the current game one plays, not from forced rules.

The latter part of the comment is simply not a relevant argument, as having dedicated transport units does not in any way exclude bombers from having such ability themselves. I thought the purpose of the sub-model system was to allow for the option of going after more focused designs, so that a player could either play simply and stick to the base units (e.g. base tank/base bomber), or go deeper and create purpose built designs (e.g. tank destroyer/transport plane).

I completely get streamlining and building a more accessible game, and i think it's a great thing. I really do. I've been kind of OK with the idea of trabombers as long as it is completely moddable and AI compatible at that. But reading justifications for it such as this is just funky, and not in a Jungle Boogie kind of way.
 

Dalwin

Field Marshal
48 Badges
Aug 11, 2003
11.303
6.150
Visit site
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Magicka
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Darkest Hour
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • Crusader Kings II
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
Not only do Panthers have nothing at all to do with air tech, they have little to do with HOI.

All nations share the same base tank designs and stats. This has always been the case in HOI. The names are for flavor.

This is a major abstraction, but it makes the endless discussions of the panther even less germaine to the game. It all sounds like good discussion for the history section of the forum.
 

Radu

Banned
82 Badges
Dec 18, 2007
957
4.722
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
Well both the Transport and the Panther dust-ups are due to big concerns regarding the HOI 4 dev team's understanding of WW2 as a historical event. I mean, there's going to be losses in resolution, sure. You have to "pack" things so they fit in the game.

But when the initial understanding is flawed then what happens to the abstraction based on said understanding?

*That* is what the concerns expressed loudly here in this thread and elsewhere are about.

How can we expect the abstraction that will be HOI4 to be an enjoyable experience given that the subject matter is HOI's strong suit (as opposed to spectacle like the Civilization series or Creative Assembly's games where history is but a label, a tapestry)... when facepalm-worthy statements are made that belie a lack of WW2-literacy?

It's... it's as if HOI4 is developed "backwards". Instead of "ok, so this is WW2... how do we fit all this in the game", Podcat's repeated statements about "excitement" vs "boredom" indicate something along the lines of : "Ok so what was <cool> in WW2? Great. Let's do research on that".

And if something isn't "cool" or "exciting" in the eyes of the dev team (which, btw, is an extremely subjective criteria)? It's left by the wayside regardless of how the overall immersion is affected. Podcat's view of Air Transports being worthy of the axe because they are not very exciting to him is precisely an example of that.

And I really have to ask : Just how wise is it to use said personal preference as the guide when deciding which features to add and what level of detail to assign to them? Shouldn't more objective criteria be used like desired scale and at least a "detail rating" assigned to each hierarchy level? Something more methodical that ensures a more uniform abstracting. Something more than an arbitrary "this likey -in, this no likey -out".
 

illathid

Elector Count of Reikland
75 Badges
Feb 22, 2012
2.001
591
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
Not only do Panthers have nothing at all to do with air tech, they have little to do with HOI.

All nations share the same base tank designs and stats. This has always been the case in HOI. The names are for flavor.

This is a major abstraction, but it makes the endless discussions of the panther even less germaine to the game. It all sounds like good discussion for the history section of the forum.

+1
 

plasticpanzers

Field Marshal
23 Badges
Oct 6, 2007
4.365
237
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pride of Nations
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Darkest Hour
perhaps we can use Panthers for air transport as well....:blink:



Edit: strange only from PI in the gaming world do we hear of the PZV as being 'crap'. Historically even
on top 10s its considered one of the top 10. Very odd view by PI staff and not based on ANYTHING I
have studied in 50 years.
 
Last edited:

gickman

Private
57 Badges
Jun 27, 2010
18
2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • East India Company Collection
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Darkest Hour
  • Deus Vult
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
@Radu
I don't post often, but I've followed these forums for years, and felt like jumping in. You've made some excellent points in this thread that I agree with. But you've lost me on the whole "Paradox doesn't know their WW2 history and is being driven by personal biases" thing. Unless I misunderstand you've based this assumption on two things:

1) the whole "bomber/transport" thing...I am solidly in the camp of those who do not agree with the direction shown thus far. Like many others have said, yourself included, there are obvious solutions like allowing for transport/utility variants of any medium or heavy airframe to be unlocked and then built separately (just like carrier capable aircraft). But podcat's points seemed to be based more on gameplay concerns...I don't recall seeing anything that said "transport aircraft were useless IRL and just sat around, so let's cut them from the game". Since this seemed to be a game play decision, and given we are still in alpha with lots of play testing and balancing to come, I am willing to wait on this one and see how it turns out.

2) the panther thing. In addition to being off topic, this seemed really off hand to me. I don't have the quote in front of me, but I think it was something like "I also think the panther was kinda crap"...but if he had said "I also think the panther was kinda flawed", would we even be having this discussion? The consensus is it was a great tank, but you can't tell me it was perfect. I personally would not read so much into this.

Anyways, just my two cents. Of course, you are entitled to your opinion...just felt like offering mine. I am still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope to have a great game when all is said and done.
 

podcat

Game Director
Paradox Staff
12 Badges
Jul 23, 2007
12.793
38.305
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Paradox Order
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
Edit: strange only from PI in the gaming world do we hear of the PZV as being 'crap'.

Not really, the World of tanks community has for example several writeups of it, one by their tank specialists(here and here). While crap is a bit strong, it was quite flawed and strategically probably not a good choice for Germany to switch to. We had a huge thread about this linking examinations by experts and historical statistics etc before.

Also claiming that bombers were never used as transports and saying we dont know history is just silly. I'v linked articles showing that many were. But yes obviously not stuff like B-17s etc (except the 17B?)

"Paradox doesn't know their WW2 history and is being driven by personal biases" thing. Unless I misunderstand you've based this assumption on two things:
There is no bias. The panther is just as good as the pershing in HOI4. Mainly because people are in love with it (including me).