Hearts of Iron IV - Developer Diary 9 - Vacation and Air tech

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

redflag

Colonel
11 Badges
Jan 28, 2003
1.194
221
Visit site
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • 500k Club
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
Axe,
I agree it does not make economic sense, however if there is a game programming compromise/game balance reasons that must take place this is not a totally off the wall idea.
WWII-Stats.jpg
 
Last edited:

Axe99

Ships for Victory
127 Badges
Feb 13, 2003
15.951
13.022
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Lead and Gold
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Pride of Nations
  • Rise of Prussia
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
I agree it does not make economic sense, however if there is a game programming compromise/game balance reasons that must take place this is not a totally off the wall idea assuming economic considerations were not an issue.

Economics is production though - from those costs (thanks for looking them up btw :), that was going to be my next port of call). Some more Googling (ie, take these figures with a grain of salt, but they should be close enough to make the point) and producing 10,000 bombers to replace the 15,000 transports that the US and UK produced/used in game, assuming that the bombers cost about twice as much the C-47 (the go-to transport) and a Sherman tank costs around $35,000, and you're literally asking the allies to forego 30,000 tanks. If that's not gameplay-altering, nothing is. On the other hand, if they're expected to just forego the transports and do without 3,300 support aircraft for Overlord (and large numbers for Market Garden as well), that's also gameplay-altering.


We could always make bombers cheaper, but then that alters the balance of costs for war material across all of the actors, encouraging other nations to build larger airforces (as the cheaper bombers means it's more cost effective to build more), and skewing the war (and the decisions faced by the actors) even further away from the actual conflict.

There's just no way I can see of not including transports having a significant impact on the war. As I mentioned in an earlier thread, exclude transports and really the game should exclude paratroopers as well - abstracting one out but not the other can not do anything other than affect gameplay and balancing. I'm very happy to be proven wrong, but by the look of this system, there are just so many things that can go wrong, and I honestly can't see a way it can work without breaking something else (or I'd shut up and leave well alone :)).
 

Redwallzyl

M&T Mansa and Poursuivant of Arms
49 Badges
Sep 1, 2012
2.515
1.111
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • PDXCon 2017 Awards Winner
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
why an aircobra? the us never used those extensively they just shipped them all to Russia. why not a f6f or f4f or even an f4u?
 

zinger98

First Lieutenant
53 Badges
Nov 25, 2003
229
60
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Knights of Honor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Lead and Gold
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome: Vae Victis
I dont believe so. I'd guess something along the lines of ruggedness / survivability.

Right... so again, what does that mean exactly? Does it affect sortie rates/repair rates?
 

Holy.Death

Deputy Armchair General
30 Badges
Feb 27, 2012
2.140
364
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Go read Podcat's clarification post on the OOB issue.

What he outlines in that post certainly makes it sound like we are not going to get anything but what we have already seen. But hey.. its an alpha :)
I will repeat myself once more: "A well organized military" does not necessarily equal "100% historical and realistical CoC". There is a lot of stuff in the link I didn't know about (and if they talked about it in the video then I didn't understand it. They're not good speakers and I couldn't enable subtitles that'd help me understand what they've said), but Podcat ain't giving me very clear picture of how things are going to work (aside for "it's closer to HoI2"). I don't mind that there won't be CoC, but this doesn't mean yet you won't be able to organize your military. As long as I'll be able to do the latter I don't mind trading the former for it. That's why I am waiting for more DDs: "as for more details and exactly how everything works that will be covered in diaries". And since it's alpha this means a lot of features can still be missing. So yeah, it's an alpha. I will start worrying when there will be a substantial reason to do so.
 

Victor Cortez

General
43 Badges
Jul 25, 2011
2.306
4.071
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Empire of Sin
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines
- I don't think the 'pro-transport' crowd are asking for a separate slot in the tech tree (correct me if I'm wrong other pro-transporters), we're just asking for different aircraft on the ground, so they can't do what Secret Master described - transport runs on Monday, strategic bombing on Tuesday and off to drop some paratroops wherever on Wednesday. Make 'em variants, make them modifications, whatever.

- @ Redflag - every single picture/example you've provided is a conversion. These take time and money/IC. You're actually supporting the pro-transport cause, we also want bombers used as transports to be proper conversions, not the bomb payload replaced with lots of paratroopers laying down in the bomb bay.

This. Simple and realistic.

If I understand correctly, it (should?) work like this: you research frame A, then if you want you can research variants, such as carrier, transport, anti-naval, nightfly... right?
 

podcat

Game Director
Paradox Staff
12 Badges
Jul 23, 2007
12.793
38.305
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Paradox Order
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
why an aircobra? the us never used those extensively they just shipped them all to Russia. why not a f6f or f4f or even an f4u?

Because those are all carrier versions of the fighters
 

Wulf145

General
25 Badges
May 7, 2004
1.780
207
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Surviving Mars
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • 500k Club
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
I will repeat myself once more: "A well organized military" does not necessarily equal "100% historical and realistical CoC". There is a lot of stuff in the link I didn't know about (and if they talked about it in the video then I didn't understand it. They're not good speakers and I couldn't enable subtitles that'd help me understand what they've said), but Podcat ain't giving me very clear picture of how things are going to work (aside for "it's closer to HoI2"). I don't mind that there won't be CoC, but this doesn't mean yet you won't be able to organize your military. As long as I'll be able to do the latter I don't mind trading the former for it. That's why I am waiting for more DDs: "as for more details and exactly how everything works that will be covered in diaries". And since it's alpha this means a lot of features can still be missing. So yeah, it's an alpha. I will start worrying when there will be a substantial reason to do so.

SInce I remeber HOI2 then I would at least expect the ability to form Korps and since in HOI2 I was able to build HQs to be able to do the same. One of the drawbacks of the HOI2 land Army system was that you were able to create unrealistic 'monster-stacks' which where invincible.
 

Holy.Death

Deputy Armchair General
30 Badges
Feb 27, 2012
2.140
364
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
SInce I remeber HOI2 then I would at least expect the ability to form Korps and since in HOI2 I was able to build HQs to be able to do the same. One of the drawbacks of the HOI2 land Army system was that you were able to create unrealistic 'monster-stacks' which where invincible.
You should read closer what's written there, not build your expectations on "HoI2" part alone. "Theaters depending on size will allow a certain amount of commanders, so players will need to use both in the same theater for best effect just like you would if there was a CoC. As a reflection it is a bit similar to HoI2 but doesnt force your stacks to be in the same province". I fail to see how you can expect corps or monster-stacks from this. There is nothing on army organization itself (only that they find OOB/CoC from HoI3 as means for organization to be more tedious to manage than it's worth, so perhaps they're thinking on something more efficient and less tedious).

To me it sounds more like we'll get "local commanders" (able to increase efficiency on a short front, for a few divisions) and "global commanders" (able to give bonuses to unis across the whole theater) and you'll be able to use a few of them in the same theater. So it is similar to HoI2 in a sense that commanders are influencing "province" (theater) with "stack" (units) in it. Beyond that it's all speculation and even what I quoted ain't very clear, so I can be wrong.
 
Last edited:

plasticpanzers

Field Marshal
23 Badges
Oct 6, 2007
4.365
237
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pride of Nations
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Darkest Hour
OK, now lets get to the nitty gritty why bombers that are bombers, not conversions which are permanent, make terrible transport aircraft..

Lets look at two aircraft, the B17 with a tailwheel and the B24 with a nosewheel as examples.

Note that the bombbay is at the center of gravity of the plane. if you put it forward or back the plane will not fly.

Note the bomb bay doors. They are shell metal like the body with a frame. They latch shut, swing open, lock in
place, and close via a small motor or hydralics. They are only to keep the wind out of the bombay to streamline the
aircraft. They are not weight bearing members.

Note that there is a catwalk down the center of almost all planes with a bombbay. This is part of the frame and to
keep airman "Joey" from falling out as the doors latches cannot take the strain of crew stomping up and down across
them. "Eh Captain, Joey walked on the bombbay doors and fell out" "Hell, that 3 replacments this week, if they
keep doing that they won't give us anymore" Joey is now embedded 3 feet into and is part of the city of Hamburg....

You cannot stack supplies on the bombbay doors and any pilot in is everlovin mind is not going to hang a bunch of 5
gallon gas cans in there and have them swing around banging into each other while he flys in weather.

Have you seen the side and belly doors on a bomber for the crew? They are tiny. You can hand 5 gal cans of fuel
and boxes thru them but no 55 gal drums or truck tires or trucks. Period.

So, where do you put paratroops and fuel cans, and ration boxes. In the body of the aircraft just aft of the bombbay.
You have to remove the tail gunner, his MGs, the wing gunners, their MGs and ammo crates and shell bins. That gives
you all of about 10-15 feet of cargo space. Now you cannot fill it all as again the weight in the tail will drag the airplane
down by the tail. Oh yes, the ball gunner on the B17 must go too.

Now how do you stuff those 16 paratroops in there and how do they get out over a target? They either each squeese thru
that tiny side door on the B17 or thru the belly hatch on the B25 or they can stuff themselves thru the side windows (that
have to be removed of any gun mounts) to pop out the windows and miss the tail of the plane. Gee, what fun.

Now, how much cargo can you stuff into a B25 or B17? No pallets, no 55 gal drums, no seats. just small crates and 5 gal
fuel cans. Tonnage only as much as the removed 4 gunners and their equipments plus perhaps a few hundred pounds more.

Now if you can visualize or even Google then inside of a working B17 (at war and not a modern movie prop plane) pictures you
will see how ridiculous using bombers for transports.

Now a C47 had a huge cargo door and a door large enough for paratroops to to their 'run' at the door which is faster and much
safer than dropping one at a time thru a hole in the planes floor which was dangerous and sometimes fatal.

You can put pallets of equipment into a C47, you can cut a US 2 1/2 ton truck in half and slide the pieces into the plane and then
reassemble them at the destination (they did this in N. Africa and soon build a version of the US 2 1/2 ton truck that could be broken
down for air shipments in C47/C46s. You can load aircraft engines that you cannot load into a bomber fusalage. Yan put 55 gal gas
and oil drums in it. You can put truck and tank engines in it. You can break down and put artillery in it. You need SEATS for a para
plane as paratroops cannot simply stand for an hour with all their gear while your flight forms up then bumps thru the air to their
target then creep out one at a time with cramped legs.

You CANNOT do this with bombers unless you permanently convert them and even then they are limited by physics to their center of
gravity due to their build and are VERY limited to where they can carry cargo unless converted and to cargo size. LOOK at the darn
google/wiki pictures of the crew doors on a B17 or B25, NOT at the bomb bay!

IT IS a simple, brutal fact of the nature of the universe and how airplane design works that a plane designed to carry cargo-passengers
is good at its job and a plane designed to drop bombs is good at that. They, in scientific terminology, SUCK at doing each others job.

Let the Wookie win.
 
Last edited:

PlacidDragon

General
76 Badges
Feb 14, 2002
1.822
693
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Right... so again, what does that mean exactly? Does it affect sortie rates/repair rates?
Difficult to answer without knowing anything about the system yet :)

If i were to venture a guess though, i'd say that it would emulate things like self sealing fuel tanks, armor, and so on. Which would make a fighter heavier (reducing its range, speed, agility, but allowing it to take more punishment).

We'll probably have to wait for the DD :)
 

Radu

Banned
82 Badges
Dec 18, 2007
957
4.722
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
...

IT IS a simple, brutal fact of the nature of the universe and how airplane design works that a plane designed to carry cargo-passengers
is good at its job and a plane designed to drop bombs is good at that. They (Strategic Bombers and Transport Planes), in scientific terminology, SUCK at doing each others job.

...

Italic, Bold emphases mine.

Absolutely, positively CORRECT.

Excellent post Plasticpanzers!

Nothing good can come, gameplay-wise, from mixing apples and oranges, Strategic Bombers and Transport Planes.

Admittedly, nothing is free in game development. Transport Planes, from graphics, design to actual implementation, require resources to get into the game. But given that Paradox *wants* to make a good WW2 game (look at the Production Lines and Division Builder diaries, superb mouth-watering features there, both realistic and fun), it's in their best interest to model Transport Planes as their own units.

Not doing so only creates headaches gameplay and balance-wise.
 

plasticpanzers

Field Marshal
23 Badges
Oct 6, 2007
4.365
237
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pride of Nations
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Darkest Hour
Here are a few pics showing the difference from the 'small' C47 with a huge cargo area and a 'large' B17 with a tiny cargo area.

c47.jpg
C47 with paras

b17inside.jpg
B17 fusalage where cargo would be loaded and paratroopers would be.

1024px-GMC_Airportable3.jpg
this is a version of the US 2 1/2 ton truck designed to be taken aparts and carried in a C47. It WOULD NOT fit in
a B24, B17, B25, nor B29 (unless you gut it of its bombbay permanently).

b25hatch.png
how you get in and out a B25, thru the belly. not especially healthy way for paratroops to drop or cargo to load/unload.

b17door.png
This is the only hatch to get into and out of a B17 by crew/passengers other than the belly hatch under the nose.
Yes you can certainly carry alot thru that door. Now match that up to pics of fully loaded paratroops struggling to get
thru the huge door on a C47.

c47cargo2.jpg
loading 'real' cargo onto a C47. Now match that pic to the previous pic of the B17 door.

c47paratroops.jpg
Loading troops into a C47. Now match that pic to the interior of the C47 and the B17.

Notes on the C87 version of the B24 heavy bomber as a purpose converted bomber....read it and weep:

The aircraft could also become unstable in flight if its center of gravity shifted due to improper cargo loading. This longitudinal instability arose from the aircraft's hasty conversion from bomber to cargo transport. Unlike a normal cargo transport, which was designed from the start with a contiguous cargo compartment with a safety margin for fore-and-aft loading variations, the bomb racks and bomb bays built into the B-24 design were fixed in position, greatly limiting the aircraft's ability to tolerate improper loading. This problem was exacerbated by wartime exigencies and the failure of USAAF Air Transport Command to instruct loadmasters in the C-87's peculiarities. The design's roots as a bomber are also considered culpable for frequently collapsing nosegear; its strength was adequate for an aircraft that dropped its payload in flight before landing on a well-maintained runway, but it proved marginal for an aircraft making repeated hard landings on rugged unimproved airstrips while heavily loaded.

The C-87 was rapidly displaced on the front lines by the Douglas C-54 Skymaster and Curtiss C-46 Commando, which offered similar performance combined with greater reliability and more benign flight characteristics. Some surviving C-87 aircraft were converted into VIP transports or flight crew trainers, and several others were sold to the Royal Air Force.

Again> This is why bombers are bombers and not transports and vice versa....
 
Last edited:

Holy.Death

Deputy Armchair General
30 Badges
Feb 27, 2012
2.140
364
  • Crusader Kings II
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Nothing good can come, gameplay-wise, from mixing apples and oranges, Strategic Bombers and Transport Planes. [...] Not doing so only creates headaches gameplay and balance-wise.
Care to elaborate how this is going to cause problems in terms of gameplay and balance? Gameplay-wise we'll simply design/retool a plane into transport, so we'll have transport planes, just not dedicated transport planes (as a separate category of planes). PP is only giving realism argument, but that doesn't work in terms of gameplay or design. If we had a bomber called "transport plane" with a picture of a transport plane as its own tech tree, then it wouldn't be a problem at all? It looks like you're arguing over a small detail when it's effectively not different from what we had before?
 
Last edited:

plasticpanzers

Field Marshal
23 Badges
Oct 6, 2007
4.365
237
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pride of Nations
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Darkest Hour
I give a realism argument that does not equate to game play? You mean fantasy? Ergo there is not basis for reality in HOI4? Its
Donkey Kong with Tigers? Why bother with heavy tanks? Why not simply give a special level to mediums that double its defence
and ups its firepower to simplify the game and remove heavy tanks altogether? Why have mulitiple aircraft types? Why not simply
lump all aircraft into "air points" Why have paratroops? Why have enginners? How often do you use them? Just how far down the
food chain gamewise do you want PI to go?

I'm sorry that reality does to you not equate to 'game play' but realism to me does. It makes it WW2. Not Candy Cane Lane with
88s.
 
Last edited:

Radu

Banned
82 Badges
Dec 18, 2007
957
4.722
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
Gameplay-wise we'll simply design/retool a plane into transport, so we'll have transport planes,

Do we?

Podcat's replies, starting from : "Bombers handle utility tasks. its mostly historical and reduces complexity enormously." ( http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...d-Air-tech&p=18038575&viewfull=1#post18038575 )

to

"A better example of a bomber/transport is the German He 111" ( http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...d-Air-tech&p=18041631&highlight=#post18041631 )

all, indicate that what will happen is that we will have these "Transbomber" or "Bomberports" abominations, B-17-C-47s that can interchangeably carrying out strategic bombardment one day and airborne landings the other with equal efficiency.

At no point did Podcat say anything along the lines of "Well, there's no real reason to include Transports in the Tech Tree separately (which btw, is completely understandable) but that doesn't mean you'll be able to just use Strat Bombers for Transport Plane duties".

In fact, Podcat's replies all point to the opposite : That Transport Planes and Strategic Bombers are one and the same... a completely fictional unit that Paradox just pulls out because it's too "complex" to include a unit that has previously been part of HOI 1,2,3 without issue.

All because Podcat doesn't like Transport Planes.


*sigh* ... designing games not based on systems, but based preference ...and "push button = awesome happens" preference at that, what is this Call of Duty? And it's not like Transport Planes are built in numbers so that it's a tedious task. No, it's simply Podcat not believing Transport Planes are "exciting enough" ... as if that's what playing HOI is like... As if playing HOI needs to be a Michael Bay spectacle where every player action is a Transformers money shot...

Here's an idea : How about making a WW2 game that is within reason realistic? Is that so terrible? Are Transport Planes so off the reservation that they need to be slashed?

EDIT : @Plasticpanzers "Donkey Kong with Tigers"... Paradox's attitude seems to be veering in this direction, yeah.
 
Last edited:

plasticpanzers

Field Marshal
23 Badges
Oct 6, 2007
4.365
237
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Pride of Nations
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Darkest Hour
In truth and in speical cases bombers could indeed carry supply but not massed personel. Give bombers a tiny supply function by air when
they are not performing a bombing mission and they gain no expierence from it unless attacked. As stated earlier a bomber was designed
to take off with a bomb load but its landing gear was not designed to land with a large load. Nobody has a zillion parachutes to use all the
time. You work those poor silkworms all to death.

Transports are not exciting enough? Stalingrad and Market Garden? DDay airborne landings? Crete assault? Paras did not walk on
water to get there.

I can't remember in how many HOI3 games supply transport by transports saved the day for me playing as any major nation.

As I suggested far earlier in the thread simply include transports in the bomber tree but as a variation like carrier planes in the single
engine tree. Have bombers with a very tiny cargo capacity but no para capacity but full bomb load and transports with 0 bomb load
and full transport capacity. The AI will use what has the capacity for the job of supply/para/bombing properly if the AI is written this
time (rather than in HOI3) properly to use the right function for each aircraft nomatter the name.
 
Last edited: