Hearts of Iron IV - Developer Diary 7 - Air Combat

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Beagá

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Ofcourse every bit helps. However Germany was really limited in materials and oil, thus it wasn`t even theoretically capable of "keeping up" even if allied bombing was absent.

You didn`t demponstrate that Germany failed to counter air raids. You did demonstrate that they had an impact, which is not the same, nor did I imply it is same.

UK&US managing to limit the grow of German industrial production, is not a "failure" to defend it`s industry by Germany. As I said, strategic bombings were not free to allies.

For a proper comparison, one has to compare the material and labor that went into manufacturing, maintaining, and operating those strategic bombing raids against the impact, which, curiously almost no-one is willing to do, and at least I can`t find any accurate figures on how much personell had to be comited to strategic air branch.

Soviets outproducing Germany indeed had a LOT to do with the acess they had to raw materials and oils (producing synthetic rubbr and oil were far less efficient than the natural stuff, consuming money, people and facilities that could be used for other things), not only to strategic bombing and population, indeed. Through not using autarky wasn´t really an option.

On the other hand strategical bombing "failed" because they focused on the wrong targets until 1945 (bombing railroad and electricity was way, WAY more effective than bombing factories directly) and the B17 had a rather crappy bombload. In other words, it could have been done somewhat better.

BTW, the fact that Germany NEVER had to use synthetic oil and rubber is an issue that is way too overlooked in balancing Germany, as EVERYONE floats in tons of oil, even the AI.
 

Porkman

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That's not what I read - strategic bombings had, to my knowledge, much less impact on Japan than cutting off the merchant fleet supplying the island(s) with resources from the mainland.

Well, the US did mine all the Japanese ports from the air so maybe that could be considered part of strategic bombing.
 

keynes2.0

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Ofcourse every bit helps. However Germany was really limited in materials and oil, thus it wasn`t even theoretically capable of "keeping up" even if allied bombing was absent.

Germany became limited in materials oil after the loss of southeastern Europe to the Soviets which happened after the Soviets gained a strong material advantage. Remove the strategic bombing and it's harder for the Soviets to make it to Romania and cut that oil
 

potski

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An option for automatic air support would be a godsend with the ability for a human to override them and assign specific tasks would be a god send. It would make sense to just set your heavy bombers on strategic bombing and let them go at it at will instead of having to tediously assign strike areas. The same goes for bombers and CAS. I think in general every mission should have two modes:

1) An automated mode where you select an option and they do that. For example, if you choose CAS to enter CAS mode they will automatically attack targets engaged in close ground battles with your troops to help tilt the scales in your favor (and hence granting them the "support" part of their names). Very little human input would be required after that except having to occasionally rebase the buggers.

2) A manual mode like what we have now that allows you to specifically direct your missions at one target or area specifically.

That way you get the best of both worlds.

What manual mode? You set your bombers on a ground support mission (for example) and gave them the area where you wanted it carried out, how long they should do it, and whether it was day, night or both. So unless you took the most extreme micro-control (one day missions, covering one province), there is not that much obvious difference here. Certainly not HOI3=manual control, HOI4=fully automated.

When you had the mission covering a HOI3 region (=state in HOI4), the planes would automatically target a province where combat was taking place on the ground. If you set an interdiction mission, they would target enemy units behind the lines which are moving. Because of this automatic targetting you didn't need to control exactly which province(s) they were going to attack.

Personally, I never used HOI3 regions, never mind provinces. I used the tools to allow you to select an arc or circle of operation drawn on the map. Set CAS with an arc of operation, radiating out of an airbase that covers a fairly wide area of the front (or even all of if narrow enough) and out to the range of the CAS. They won't ever bomb the provinces you control, nor will they usually bomb a province which is behind the enemy lines. They focus on the front line provinces and especially on provinces where you are attacking.

But what if I want to do a "preparation" before an attack, bomb the enemy units in the province I want to attack in a few days time? I used to do that micro-hell in HOI2, but don't in HOI3, I doubt it has much value once the devs stopped the situation that existed in HOI2 where it was possible for air units alone to destroy a land unit, especially if it was retreating and had no org. This is just like real life - the enemy forces would just stay in their trenches, bunkers and not take much damage. Only when there is combat on the ground, does the ground support come into it's own - forces that need to move to counter local attacks are vulnerable to direct damage, and other forces which might have moved are suppressed, and generally the whole enemy unit(s) defends at a penalty than if they weren't subject to air attack.

The new system should bring the following benefits:

1. There are no longer wings constricting the whole of an air "unit" to a single province. 100 planes, even operating from the same air base and the same type, might spread across multiple provinces now, and carry out bombing missions across a wide sector of a "quiet" front. Seems much more realistic to me, there is some suppression and a small attrition of lost men and equipment in a number of enemy units. As long as the AI immediately focusses them all against one province if we engage in combat there.

2. Instead of a single block of 100 planes with the same spec (a HOI3 wing), we now have an airbase which can have 100 planes of different types. So in an airbase we can have interceptors, bombers and long-range bombers. This is particularly important in remote areas, where few wings are likely to be located. No longer do we have 100 interceptors in Singapore for example, instead we could have 30 interceptors, 40 bombers and 30 naval bombers (I hope these are a separate type of plane).

3. A link to the battle plans, so that the air control AI knows to prioritise the provinces where we intend to attempt a breakthrough at a specifc part of the front, and enemy units moving to reinforce that area. Or if we are going for an advance across a wide area, then the planes are spread out.

4. A strategic air map mode (probably just reached automatically by zooming out from the sort of view in the DD screenshot). Showing which strategic regions we have air superiority, and which are contested, perhaps with some colour coding to give clear indications of whether we are winning or losing. I play mainly as JAP. I know that the Nat.Chi have some air units at the start of the game, and might (unlikely) build more by 1937. But it is nearly impossible without putting the game on super slow, focussing in on Northern China, watching for any signs of their planes over the front, and carefully inspecting all combat reports to get some idea of how active they are, how many planes of which types they have committed, and how effective they are. It's very very difficult in HOI3 to get an idea what your own air forces are doing, and impossible for enemy forces.

5. An interface which pulls all of the "units" together in a particular strategic area. Fundamentally, the screenshot DD is showing us not so much a completely different approach to the air war, but a way to see what all of the units (by which I mean groups of planes in an airbase of the same type) in that region are doing - which units have missions, and how they are doing. Specifically we can see at a glance whether any of these units have been taking heavy losses, so we don't suddenly find that a bomber unit which we gave a long mission to has been completely wiped out (as we have all experienced at one time or another) or that a unit we gave a mission to ended weeks ago and the unit has been doing nothing.

The last is actually the most important change to me. You no longer have to keep baby-sitting individual wings. It is this which gets tedious micro in HOI3 if you have a number of air units operating across a big area. In Barbarossa for example you might have three strategic regions (Baltic States, Byelorussia, Ukraine), so there are only three interfaces to check on a regular basis to get an overview, not say 25 or more individual wings. You can see that if you start the campaign with 200 fighters in the Baltic States and after two weeks that they have dropped to 120 that you need to urgently supply them with more planes (and pilots). And if the Soviets started with 150 fighters and still have 130, then that would suggest that they have a very clear tech edge over your planes and you need to upgrade, and perhaps instead of just doing fighter/fighter dogfights, you might want to bomb the hell out of their airbases, or send some panzers to try to capture the airbase to deny them it's use.
 

Admiral Piett

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That's not what I read - strategic bombings had, to my knowledge, much less impact on Japan than cutting off the merchant fleet supplying the island(s) with resources from the mainland.

This is my conclusion as well.

Anyone familiar with the Japanese war time economy knows that it had essentially collapsed by the end of 1944, before the large-scale B-29 raids even began. I don't know of many production items that were damaged by strategic bombing that weren't already crippled due to a lack of raw material imports. To look at the impact of the air war on the Japanese economy it would be far more helpful to study the raiding of Japanese merchant shipping with aircraft, since they were quite heavily involved alongside the silent service.
 

potski

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And how would having the possibility to have more control prevent you from enjoying this as well ?

We heard this when HOI3 came out. "OMG!!! I can't control the air units the way I want, I don't want any AI control over them at all, ever!" As if drawing an area of operation as an arc or circle, or group of provinces/regions took something away from them.

Where have the devs said that you will NOT be able to send air units against a single province if you really want to? There are plenty of buttons on that screenshot which could open other interfaces, including selecting which part of a strategic region you want to target. The screenshot they did for debugging "a stream of German fighters and bombers attacking Britain" quite clearly shows them targetting London only, with a few bombers going off-target for instance by weather or navigation errors.
 

Porkman

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And how would having the possibility to have more control prevent you from enjoying this as well ?

He made a point about how your perception is off because you don't actually have that much control in HOI3. But the difference here is that this system's default level is on a very large scale, (the strategic region) but you can narrow it down and prioritize as necessary, if you want.

HOI3 default scale was micro, so, even if the task was simple, like sending 4 interceptor squadrons to patrol Western Germany, you still had to click a bunch to set the individual missions for each squadron and then check them individually to see how many planes were lost. It was a lot of wasted clicking for a very simple task.
 

WittyName

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Definitely agree. And why stop there? Having to move all those corps is such a chore. I really hate having to micromanage every division. Why not just create massive operational zones and let the AI do that for you, too?

Drawing vast assumptions about people and acting sarcastic and condescending while doing so makes you look very childish.

The micromanagement of land units in HoI2/3 is the best part of those games because the micromanagement mattered. The more meticulous you planned and the more detailed and thought-out your micromanagement was actually had an impact on how effective you were at the game.

On the other side, you could play through HoI2/3 effectively without ever actually using air units. It was boring and ultimately inconsequential. That doesn't mean I want it to be simplified and AI-controlled. Distancing land combat from air combat and not having them treated in the exact same way is the best way you could actually make your air force engaging to play around with. I'm sure targeting specific provinces for ground attacks/strategic bombardments/logistical strikes/etc will all be there, it'll just be easier to assign those orders. Hopefully the micromanagement of your air units will have some impact on the grand scheme of the game, too.
 

mursolini

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BTW, the fact that Germany NEVER had to use synthetic oil and rubber is an issue that is way too overlooked in balancing Germany, as EVERYONE floats in tons of oil, even the AI.
??
Most of German oil in game comes from syntetic plants. In fact, you can never get to Romanian oil fields as Oil price is so freaking huge, buying up oil iis next to impossilbe, not to mention Romania actually refining it`s oil for fuel most of the time anyway.
Germany became limited in materials oil after the loss of southeastern Europe to the Soviets which happened after the Soviets gained a strong material advantage. Remove the strategic bombing and it's harder for the Soviets to make it to Romania and cut that oil
Germany was limited in terms of oil thrugh the duration of the campaign. Also in terms of rare earth metals.

Even with Romanian oil, Germany was heavilly outproduced by SU, and SU could actually buy stuff from allies if there was a large shortage.

As I said, most of the things that Allies did helped SU directly or indirectly, which is great. However after 1942 year concluded, Germany would eventually loose even to SU alone. Allied bombing and other campaigns arrived to late to decide the outcome of the war, but made conclusion faster and less bloody.
 

Beagá

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If you have trouble getting oil as Germany you are doing something wrong. Again - even the AI floats in oil, without using synthethics, or barely using them. And fuel isn´t a problem with Italy or Japan either, at least not in the scale it should be.
 

Porkman

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??
Most of German oil in game comes from syntetic plants. In fact, you can never get to Romanian oil fields as Oil price is so freaking huge, buying up oil iis next to impossilbe, not to mention Romania actually refining it`s oil for fuel most of the time anyway.

Germany was limited in terms of oil thrugh the duration of the campaign. Also in terms of rare earth metals.

Even with Romanian oil, Germany was heavilly outproduced by SU, and SU could actually buy stuff from allies if there was a large shortage.

As I said, most of the things that Allies did helped SU directly or indirectly, which is great. However after 1942 year concluded, Germany would eventually loose even to SU alone. Allied bombing and other campaigns arrived to late to decide the outcome of the war, but made conclusion faster and less bloody.

I agree with you, but this has been killing me about every one of your posts.

loose = not tight

lose = not win
 

mursolini

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If you have trouble getting oil as Germany you are doing something wrong. Again - even the AI floats in oil, without using synthethics, or barely using them. And fuel isn´t a problem with Italy or Japan either, at least not in the scale it should be.
I can buy oil. I don`t need to, since I`m converting coal to oil since 1936.
I agree with you, but this has been killing me about every one of your posts.

loose = not tight

lose = not win
Thanks!
 

Beagá

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That isn´t the point.

You can convert even WITHOUT the necessary amount of facilities, investment and manpower. And the deficit can easily be bought. Result: fuel as Germany NEVER is an issue, similar with even Italy and Japan.

If you don´t have synthetic plants you shouldnt even be able to convert at all, and massive volumes would require massive facilities.
 

varsovie

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If you have trouble getting oil as Germany you are doing something wrong. Again - even the AI floats in oil, without using synthethics, or barely using them. And fuel isn´t a problem with Italy or Japan either, at least not in the scale it should be.


If you're not having trouble getting oil with Germany you're doing it wrong, play another mod. ;)
 

keynes2.0

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As I said, most of the things that Allies did helped SU directly or indirectly, which is great. However after 1942 year concluded, Germany would eventually loose even to SU alone. Allied bombing and other campaigns arrived to late to decide the outcome of the war, but made conclusion faster and less bloody.

If Germany is fighting against just SU alone, even ignoring the strategic bombing, they are in a vastly better material position in a lot of key categories. Their available aircraft quintuples, enough for complete air superiority even up to an otherwise historical 1945. Their available AFVs about doubles, giving them a lot more offensive options. Their available heavy guns more then doubles, increasing their battlefield strength a lot.

Their supply of oil doesn't go up but western front air defense, navy and north African usage being absent means that Germany is practically swimming in oil compared to historically. The rise in logistical capacity would mostly help with the home front, which we were ignoring, but there would be a small increase in available logistical resources, like 10% more trucks available just from North Africa alone. The increase in available manpower is smaller, only a few million, but not something you can overlook. And of course 10%-20% of Soviet planes, tanks, trucks, trains, etc. are lend lease stuff.

So I think it's safe to say that the Soviets weren't strong enough to doom Germany all by themselves in 1942. The point where German is doomed by just the Soviets alone would be around late 1944 IMHO.
 

Beagá

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If you're not having trouble getting oil with Germany you're doing it wrong, play another mod. ;)

Maybe for people who can´t beat the soviets by 1944, and even if you can´t you won´t have trouble with fuel if you know what you´re doing.

Besides, mods are mods, I´m talking mostly about vanilla TFH, which is the basis for game balance. And everyone who played the game knows it´s impossible to have fuel shortage as Germany on a level that stops if from doing anything you want. Now, if units get supply on Siberia it´s another matter, I´m talking about the fuel stockpile.
 

frolix42

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You didn`t demponstrate that Germany failed to counter air raids. You did demonstrate that they had an impact, which is not the same, nor did I imply it is same.

This does not make any sense. If you were to measure how effective the German defense against Allied strategic bombing was, the only way to do so would be to examine the impact Allied strategic bombing had on Germany.

UK&US managing to limit the grow of German industrial production, is not a "failure" to defend it`s industry by Germany.

The above statement does not make any sense in the same way the following statement does not make sense: "The German football team scoring seven times in one match against Brazil is not a "failure" to defend it's goal by Brazil."

As I said, strategic bombings were not free to allies.

For a proper comparison, one has to compare the material and labor that went into manufacturing, maintaining, and operating those strategic bombing raids against the impact, which, curiously almost no-one is willing to do, and at least I can`t find any accurate figures on how much personell had to be comited to strategic air branch.

This is a drawback in depending on video game forums for historical knowledge. There are quite a variety of Cost-Benefit analyses of strategic bombing out there:

The repeated raids on the Ruhr in 1943 had extracted a terrible toll from the RAF Bomber Command. Nearly 4,000 crew were killed or taken prisoner, and 640 bombers were shot down or crashed. Terrible as this attrition was, however, thanks to the mounting output of British aircraft factories, the RAF's bomber strength actually increased between February and August 1943.
-Adam Tooze, Wages of Destruction Chap. 18 pg. 601
 
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Balesir

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Land generals are more necessary because they could "win the war in a week," in a way that air generals couldn't. I'm exaggerating but hear me out.
Maybe, for the front-line commanders (up to Division) this has some merit, but for those at HQ in London/Berlin/Cairo I really don't see that much of a difference. Their job was allocation of resources and logistical arrangements, plus longer-term planning - same as for the air war.

Aerial warfare is a bureaucratic exercise.

A really good air general doesn't mean that the frontline is breached and enemy collapses.

It means that monthly losses in interceptors are reduced by 10% and that the current training regime is 85% keeping pace with replacements.
I don't disagree with the overall sentiments, here, but I see this as very similar to what the higher levels (Army, Army Group, Theatre) of land unit commanders do. And it's all vital work to get the war won (for whichever side you happen to be on).

You are never going to be able to get the same "Rommel commanding the sickle cut" feeling out of air generals because a well designed aerial warfare system won't allow that to happen. (Though in naval stuff air power was that dramatic, but we do have admirals so no biggie there.) Maybe if we returned to the HOI2 death stars of CAS you could get dramatic results but aerial superiority is moving away from a point attack weapon killing thousands of troops to what it should be, a persistent shroud that makes your life easier and the enemy's harder.
Rommel in the Desert was one thing (he commanded from forward positions a relatively small force - Corps size, in effect), but in France in 1944 it was rather different. The scope of his command may have made things less "thrilling", but it was arguably far more vital to the war outcome. If the game is designed for "Saturday Matinee Thrills" then you're going to get just the "romanticising" effect you decry further down...

I see how an "air general" system could work, but it doesn't excite me. I also get a bit upset by it because I feel like it's a holdover from the over romanticization of the Battle of Britain.

(The whole mythology of which is just insulting to the British when you think about it. The Japanese, Germans, and Chinese endured far more massive and, in the end, uncontested aerial bombardment without surrendering, yet Britain was about to throw in the towel if an extra 1000 Ju-88's got through? That somehow, the German army was ever going to get across the channel? In the end if the Battle of Britain "saved Britain" instead of just "reduced casualties" than it's a tacit admission that the Brits were pansies, which I don't for one moment believe.)
I think you misunderstand the importance (and miss the important part) of the Battle of Britain.

The Luftwaffe initially targetted RAF Fighter Command - first by trying to tempt it out to defend merchant shipping and then by attacking its airfields directly. This was for a simple reason: without RAF Fighter Command interference the Luftwaffe could hold off the Royal Navy and allow a land invasion of the UK mainland. This is a battle Germany at that point in the war would have won. The Luftwaffe nearly succeeded in their aim. When the bombing target switched to London (due to Hitler's irritation at a bombing mission against Berlin), Fighter Command got two weeks reprise in which they rebuilt their support capability, reorganised and integrated replacements. By the time the Luftwaffe's focus returned to the RAF, the battle was effectively lost - the aim beyond reach. The bombing of London in September 1940 was essentially irrelevant (although its effects showed the RAF commanders what bombing cities could do).

The bombing of cities in general was not the "morale boost" sometimes claimed; that is another example of "over-romanticism". The government and media put a positive spin on it, of course - propaganda is always a weapon in war - but there was a limited level of unrest and dissatisfaction caused by the bombing, as reflected in the HoI "National Unity" mechanism. That it was "managed" successfully is what we see in the historical record.
 

mursolini

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If Germany is fighting against just SU alone, even ignoring the strategic bombing, they are in a vastly better material position in a lot of key categories. Their available aircraft quintuples, enough for complete air superiority even up to an otherwise historical 1945. Their available AFVs about doubles, giving them a lot more offensive options. Their available heavy guns more then doubles, increasing their battlefield strength a lot.

Their supply of oil doesn't go up but western front air defense, navy and north African usage being absent means that Germany is practically swimming in oil compared to historically. The rise in logistical capacity would mostly help with the home front, which we were ignoring, but there would be a small increase in available logistical resources, like 10% more trucks available just from North Africa alone. The increase in available manpower is smaller, only a few million, but not something you can overlook. And of course 10%-20% of Soviet planes, tanks, trucks, trains, etc. are lend lease stuff.

So I think it's safe to say that the Soviets weren't strong enough to doom Germany all by themselves in 1942. The point where German is doomed by just the Soviets alone would be around late 1944 IMHO.
Really?
SU outproduced Germany by a margin of 2 or even 3 in most categories.
Even if all of the German material comes to fight SU they are still at huge disadvantage.
This is a drawback in depending on video game forums for historical knowledge. There are quite a variety of Cost-Benefit analyses of strategic bombing out there:

-Adam Tooze, Wages of Destruction Chap. 18 pg. 601
Do you have problems reading English?
I asked the amout of manpower needed to run the missions, which, in general consists of:
people working on plants to make planes bombs, exetera.
people shipping planes to England.
ground crews making planes work.
pilots.

Now, did your answer gave any answer to my question? I don`t think so. Why did you give me that anwer anyway?

I`ve seen several good estimates on how much of German economy was dedicated to Subs, compared to how much of the Allied economy had to be put to providing anti-sub measuers. Same for US subs and Japanese economy. Same for German V2 rokets cost versus how much allies did spent to counter them.

So how do strategic bombers compare? How much of US and UK economy was dedicated to stratefic campaign, and how much of the German ecenomy did they tie up?
Shouldn`t be a prombem for you, right?
 
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