Hearts of Iron IV - Developer Diary 12 - Internal Politics

[Poh]

in HoI3 you had more than 3 parties and what did you gain? nothing in terms of gameplay only some names for flavour. The only thing that matters is the % distribution between the three major political factions that make up the opposing ideologies in the game, that is what makes a difference in the game. If denmark had 6 parties. 1 for facist, 4 for democratic and 1 communist you would just have to sum up the democratic parties if you wanted to know the % pie size of the democratic faction size in the country. Also you would need a mechanic and processing for finding a distribution of % votes for all the parties which in fact was just ghosts because the only thing that matter anyway is the sum of parties in the facist, democratic and communist faction.

 

[D3m0]

in HoI3 you had more than 3 parties and what did you gain? nothing in terms of gameplay only some names for flavour. The only thing that matters is the % distribution between the three major political factions that make up the opposing ideologies in the game, that is what makes a difference in the game. If denmark had 6 parties. 1 for facist, 4 for democratic and 1 communist you would just have to sum up the democratic parties if you wanted to know the % pie size of the democratic faction size in the country. Also you would need a mechanic and processing for finding a distribution of % votes for all the parties which in fact was just ghosts because the only thing that matter anyway is the sum of parties in the facist, democratic and communist faction.

There were a lot of conservative authoritarian and para-fascist regimes in the HoI time frame that don't fit any of those three categories though and will have to be addressed.

 

[Kung Zog]

in HoI3 you had more than 3 parties and what did you gain? nothing in terms of gameplay only some names for flavour. The only thing that matters is the % distribution between the three major political factions that make up the opposing ideologies in the game, that is what makes a difference in the game. If denmark had 6 parties. 1 for facist, 4 for democratic and 1 communist you would just have to sum up the democratic parties if you wanted to know the % pie size of the democratic faction size in the country. Also you would need a mechanic and processing for finding a distribution of % votes for all the parties which in fact was just ghosts because the only thing that matter anyway is the sum of parties in the facist, democratic and communist faction.

While they had their faults like the largest party always gaining the government role (no support for coalitions) they were good tools for modding. Tying events to ruling party, opposition etcetera is a great tool for any mod that attempts anything more than a railroad experience.

 

[Andrzej2]

What about the fact that Poland had a fascist government but was allied with France and the UK?

Poland hadn't fascist government. Just becouse president had strong, authoritarian power doesn't mean that it was fascism.

 

[sermaciej]

Poland hadn't fascist government. Just becouse president had strong, authoritarian power doesn't mean that it was fascism.

That's true, polish government wasn't fascist. It wasn't democratic, it was authoritian, but it wasn't fascist.

 

[Esben_DRK]

(...)If denmark had 6 parties. 1 for facist, 4 for democratic and 1 communist you would just have to sum up the democratic parties if you wanted to know the % pie size of the democratic faction size in the country. (...) only thing that matter anyway is the sum of parties in the facist, democratic and communist faction.

I'm not sure how to respond to this, other than to say it's as historically correct as Civilization IV.
If you merge the 4 "old" Danish parties, or the 2 big US parties, or the 2 big UK parties, or the French parties, or ... (Fill in blanks) you get a fantasy world. In France, you would have the Popular Front win an election against itself, since the centre-right would also be a part of them. The US elections of '36, '40 and '44 would be Roosevelt against Roosevelt? Just as dumb, if the authoritarian, dictatorial and depending on times monarchist German army made a coup d'etat against Hitler, you'd get, what, a democratic party? The army wouldn't have done that.
Having only 3 parties to represent each faction is even dumber because several states that were parts of the Allied weren't democracies, but were authoritarian, right-wing regimes, such as Egypt or Iraq, or Kuomintang China, Brazil and probably numerous more.
I have no idea how anyone can have a bland enough impression of the interwar politics to suggest 3 parties each being "democratic", "communist" and "fascist", and still be interested in Hearts of Iron.

 

[Caesar15]

in HoI3 you had more than 3 parties and what did you gain? nothing in terms of gameplay only some names for flavour. The only thing that matters is the % distribution between the three major political factions that make up the opposing ideologies in the game, that is what makes a difference in the game. If denmark had 6 parties. 1 for facist, 4 for democratic and 1 communist you would just have to sum up the democratic parties if you wanted to know the % pie size of the democratic faction size in the country. Also you would need a mechanic and processing for finding a distribution of % votes for all the parties which in fact was just ghosts because the only thing that matter anyway is the sum of parties in the facist, democratic and communist faction.

No, that doesn't make any sense. Imagine the U.S. Republicans being the same party as the democrats just because they're democratic. This would also using espionage to support parties less effective. Because then you would have a really strong "democratic" party that would be hard to lose to the fascists/communists/whatever in the elections.

 

[Andrzej2]

Wait, is it confirmed that in HoI4 there will be only one party for each main ideology and no smaller parties? Politics isn't so simple.

 

[jju_57]

Politics isn't so simple.

But games usually are.

 

[DominusNovus]

I'm very interested in this DD and enjoyed the info quite a bit. However, I too, am worried about the parties and would appreciate some confirmation that they will not be merely 3 parties per country. That basically renders democracies pathetically abstract.

Its a simple matter of loading up the USA and losing the first election. Whats going to happen?

 

[illathid]

Wait, is it confirmed that in HoI4 there will be only one party for each main ideology and no smaller parties? Politics isn't so simple.

I've not heard for sure one way or the other. It's likely that Germany only has 3 parties to begin with, but it's not clear if that's all they'll ever have (For instance, I could see the support democracy goal potentially adding another democratic party, etc.).

 

[Andrzej2]

But games usually are.

Paradox games aren't just ordinary, simple games. They are grand strategies and I expect them to be complicated and realistic. That's why im playing paradox strategies not for example Civilization V.

 

[xtfoster]

China isnt full of ahistorical warlord nations, yaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!

At the time the "warlords" were the best way to model the fact that the ROC had little actual control in vast parts of their country and over vast parts of their military. As long as it is possible to better portray that I have no problem with the loss of Shanxi, Guangxi, Yunnan, Xibei San Ma, and Xinjiang.

 

[ringhloth]

Politics is definitely a lot more sandboxy and heavy handed, and in some ways that's bad, and in a lot of ways it's better than before. Politics didn't really seem to matter in HoI3. You got your party liked above a certain level, then great. Time to raise NU and perform counter-espionage, and never check the political screen again. I don't think the 9 party system really was significantly more realistic or interesting than a 3 faction system. I'm not saying this is a great solution; politics is complex mainly because it has to be a general solution. This is a decent general solution that captures the gist of what needs to be portrayed: who's going to ally who when the dominoes fall.

 

[fabius]

I've loved all the DDs so far but found this one "meh".

What am I missing? I don't see anything ground-breaking to really evolutionary in the internal politics, just mostly prettier tabs to select going through the motions of mobilisation and selecting ministers.

 

[Admiral Piett]

This looks pretty good! It will be pretty fun to play around with the Zaibatsu.

 

[Poh]

I'm not sure how to respond to this, other than to say it's as historically correct as Civilization IV.
If you merge the 4 "old" Danish parties, or the 2 big US parties, or the 2 big UK parties, or the French parties, or ... (Fill in blanks) you get a fantasy world. In France, you would have the Popular Front win an election against itself, since the centre-right would also be a part of them. The US elections of '36, '40 and '44 would be Roosevelt against Roosevelt? Just as dumb, if the authoritarian, dictatorial and depending on times monarchist German army made a coup d'etat against Hitler, you'd get, what, a democratic party? The army wouldn't have done that.
Having only 3 parties to represent each faction is even dumber because several states that were parts of the Allied weren't democracies, but were authoritarian, right-wing regimes, such as Egypt or Iraq, or Kuomintang China, Brazil and probably numerous more.
I have no idea how anyone can have a bland enough impression of the interwar politics to suggest 3 parties each being "democratic", "communist" and "fascist", and still be interested in Hearts of Iron.

Well a game is a fantasy world that decides to give flavour and accuracy to the areas important for the gameplay. In HoI thats mostly War, War and War.
I can see no reason why you cant have differentiated factions and election/no election (if the devs want to). Also getting another ruling party could be handled by spending Political Power during an election.
If the army killed Hitler why couldnt they just be facist totalitarian with another ruling party shifted by event?
I dont see it as 3 parties i see it as factions where you represent the political parties in each faction by the name of the largest. Just like you today have a Socialdemocratic primeminister in denmark even though the foundation of the goverment is 4 parties. When you see maps of Europe of rulingparties they always split into liberal or socialist and just use that distinction and nothing more. Why? because thats a quick way to compare politics across nations without dappling into the fine mechanics of how the actual composistion in every nation is.
Just as you have no idea why someone can like a 3 faction system (which also existed in HoI3 but only was masked) i dunno why people see the need for a finer distinction. Tbh politics in HoI4 is a matter of which faction you belong to as a way to determine what side you will fight on in the war.

 

[safe-keeper]

I've loved all the DDs so far but found this one "meh".

What am I missing? I don't see anything ground-breaking to really evolutionary in the internal politics, just mostly prettier tabs to select going through the motions of mobilisation and selecting ministers.

I kinda share the same feeling, but then again I guess internal politics are never going to be the mosty exciting part of a WWII game.

 

[safe-keeper]

Oh, and wrapping my head around Porsche vehicles moving slower than other companies' designs will take some work .

 

[Corelli]

Great DD!

I love bringing back the tech companies, the extra flavor was a plus in HOI2.

I agree with and applaud the right minded rescheduling of the release. I'd rather have it fleshed out more and made correct.