Hearts of Iron IV - Dev Diary 6 - Division Design

[Aleksi_i]

How about XP is named "Organization ability", and it is represented with numbers like the XP.
Maby this would make unsatisfied people more happy.

The thing is that things need things to represent things, and these things must have name different then a thing.
Otherwise these things could get confused by other things.

 

[unmerged(83175)]

this might come as a shock to you and i'm sorry to have to do this but HoI4 is a game. yes it's a gamey decision and implementation, and it makes sense.



that wasn't the point at all. i was explaining that strategies developed before the war put in to action didn't pan out as expected. going back to why i was talking about it instead of being OT like what you said, the game needs to restrict the player from min maxing everything, you know, to make it fun and challenging

There are imo different ways to make min/maxing divisions harder of more difficult. Also if the different brigades are well balanced stats wise and a sensible combined bonus is added like TFH but improved and expanded. You don't need such thing as experience points to design you divisions.

Now it looks like if you want to compose a division with x units, you need to first 'level up'.

Also if people want to min/max divisions let them, if players want to make immersive divisions let them... for the moment I can't say HoI4 looks better than HoI3 TFH. I just don't see it.
It looks like a bit like Warthunder and are we sure HoI4 will not released for the playstation?

 

[podcat]

Two Questions:

1) Does having units in different brigades make any difference, aside from template experience cost? EX: What is the difference between a) division with a 1 Brigade of 4 LArm Battalions, b) division with 2 Brigades of 2 LArm Battalions, c) division with 4 Brigades of 1 LArm battalion.

2) Is it possible to create brigades that have both tanks and infantry inside them, or do they need to remain separate? And if separate, what are the categories of units that can be mixed within a brigade.

Thanks!

1. no difference atm, but its blocking you from organizing multiple types of arms, see below:

2. brigades have (moddable) limitations, so only some things match. You cant mix armor and infantry in the same brigade, but you can mix different size of tanks, TDs etc

Am I really the only one to not understand the point of having 30 battalion slots, if only 5 of them at best can be used for "support units". A division typically has 9 "frontline" battalions, 12 for the biggest ones. What on earth are we supposed to attach in the other slots, if all "support units"(a category which seems to group such vastly different things as AT guns, organic artillery, recon and engineers) have their own slots? I hardly see any progress over HoI3 with this system, we are still as far from being able to build a realistic division as we've ever been, and the limited number of "support" slots means that we keep the "I have to choose between adding AT guns or recon motorcycles to my division" nonsense that has been there since HoI2.

The number isnt really written in stone yet, we have discussed 6 slots, or 12. we'll see where we end up after playing. But if you can fit as many as you want it removes any real choice from the player (assuming cost isnt a big issue here). There are also doctrines affecting stuff here.

Hi Podcat,
Thank you for this great dev diary, I really like the new design for the division template, but I also have four questions:
1. For the earned experience, do every single division or general still get its/his own XP from combat, and what's relation between template XP and every single division's gained XP? And is it possible for countries in peace to gain some XP from things like Military Drill events and/or Tech upgrade?
2. As you said each cell only represents archetypes of equipment, is that mean for each battalion, like each tank battalion, it will have different types of tanks compared with others, like Bat. 1 has Pz I, Bat. 2 has Pz II, Bat. 3 has Pz III and so on. Or for each single battalion, for examples, Battalion 1 has 50 tanks in total, 10 of them are Pz I, 15 of them are Pz II, the rest (25) are Pz III. And can we use foreign equipments, like purchased or captured tanks, to fill the division templates, and especially for the captured equipments, how do we get them, from elimination of enemy pockets? and are they not upgradable, they are just stored in the pool until used up or sold out?
3. Besides tanks, aircrafts, ships, anti-tank weapons, engineering weapons, armored personnel carriers, trucks, artillery etc, do we have equipments that are specifically used by infantries, like rifles, machine guns, grenade launcher or small arms in total, things like AK 47, MG 42 are really famous WW2 weapons, inclusion of them will give the game huge historical flavors.
4. Do we still have Officers as a need component for building divisions, and does different battalion have different numbers of officers needed?
I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

Thanks!
1. Yeah generals and divisions still gain XP for themselves
2. The second, so each can have a mix. We dont have captured equipment yet, but its something we want to add. We'll see.
3. Infantry equipment is abstracted into packages (there are a couple of levels that improve different things). You wont specifically be building individual rifles, but more the whole kit the guys need
4. We don't have leadership like in hoi3 (and hence no officers anymore). That kind of country modelling is done in another way which we havent talked about yet.

Will there be a way to get land combat experience from the Spanish Civil War?

Yes

Will there be war games or exercises to gain experience?

How will the US get their funky divisions with all the bells and whistles if they don't do any fighting until 1942?

Will be revealed in time, but there are ways to gain experience for them as well

And you miss the point. Those experience points for the modification are just a silly WoW addition that is silly.

Its a bit gamey (surprise, its a game), but unless we can ship with a large drill to lobotomize players so they dont remember their WWII history we need mechanics to make the player not just make all the optimum choices right away and never see any variation in play.

 

[tommylotto]

This could all be easily avoided if I was able to change which template and existing division was following.

I assume that will be your solution.

 

[unmerged(83175)]

Will we still have model pictures, brigade names, tech components as in HoI3??

 

[snoopy1710]

Forking or duplicating of course brings along the unlocks, its only when starting fresh based on, say, your first mountaineer divisions.

That cleans it up, thank you so much.

Snoopy

 

[Dalwin]

I assume that will be your solution.

That would be my solution if we are able to do so. That. unfortunately, is not how I read the description in the DD. If I can, after creation, go down the line and reclassify 10% of my line divisions to now be heavy line instead, then I have not a single complaint about this system.

 

[Aleksi_i]

I see one thing here that I think went in a terrible direction. The way this was worded, it looks like a division is locked into a particular template upon creation and cannot be changed from one template model to another one. That might not sound like a big deal but it takes away a huge amount of flexibility.

Lets say for sake of example that I mass produce 120 infantry divisions to send east as part of Barbarossa. If I produce all of those as template Line Infantry, they will all ALWAYS have to be identical. I lose the option to add an extra support battalion to just a portion of them.

So to maintain flexibility I will have to jump through hoops that are worse than the old micromanagement game of producing individual brigades and attaching them. In the above example instead of producing 120 Line Inf, I would be able to maintain some flexibility if I produce 40 each of Line InfA, Line InfB and Line InfC. Even if they are initially all identical this at least lets me change out parts of my force without having to do all of it. Of course I then either need to set up my corps with one each of A,B and C or make the corps homogenous depending on what I am trying to accomplish.

This could all be easily avoided if I was able to change which template and existing division was following.

You can make different templates, lets say you have that 120 divisions. 100 of them has you main template. 15 has template that is good for forrest fighting, and 5 that is used to fight in urban areas. Just for example.
You could have only one unit using certant template like Pz-Lehr Division. Making that template cost XP, but you have that one uniq unit.

I know i will do this when making the SS, Grossdeutschland Division, 7th Armored "desert rats" etc.

 

[vonhavoc]

Its a bit gamey (surprise, its a game), but unless we can ship with a large drill to lobotomize players so they dont remember their WWII history we need mechanics to make the player not just make all the optimum choices right away and never see any variation in play.

I appreciate the reply.

You already have the doctrinal way of regulating the divisional composition. This current implementation just is gamier than needed. In the doctrines, infantry support role for tanks could be defined, and so forth.

If anything, WW2 also taught us that there is no only one way to do things. The winners did not do everything better or right. Things just need to match the path chosen. There was no real limitation to the amount of brigades in a division, other than operational limitations by the HQ, and in some cases the infrastructure.

The game will be min maxed no matter how it will try to be limited.

 

[Darkrenown]

That would be my solution if we are able to do so. That. unfortunately, is not how I read the description in the DD. If I can, after creation, go down the line and reclassify 10% of my line divisions to now be heavy line instead, then I have not a single complaint about this system.

You'll be able to change Templates.

 

[Dalwin]

You can make different templates, lets say you have that 120 divisions. 100 of them has you main template. 15 has template that is good for forrest fighting, and 5 that is used to fight in urban areas. Just for example.
You could have only one unit using certant template like Pz-Lehr Division. Making that template cost XP, but you have that one uniq unit.

I know i will do this when making the SS, Grossdeutschland Division, 7th Armored "desert rats" etc.

I think you missed my point entirely. I know you can make different templates. What I am saying that is if a division is locked into one template when it is created instead of being able to change an existing division from one template to another, we then lose a LOT of flexibility.

If we cannot shift existing divisions between templates, these templates are not a shortcut to reduce micromanagement. They are instead a straight jacket that will make it very difficult to alter your forces the way you want to.

 

[Dalwin]

You'll be able to change Templates.

Thank you very much. That was my only concern. If I can swap an existing division to a template other than what it started with, then all is good.

 

[SpySappinMyUser]

Meh. Experience points? Seriously? This isn't a RPG, nor an RTS where units "rank up" on the fly. It all looks too arcade-y and I might just stick to HoI III if this is the direction the devs are going. They seem to be dumbing it down way too much.

 

[BlitzWarfare]

I find it quiet stupid that we first have to research a tech and then unlock it for the divisions aswell.
If I want to add tiger tanks, Jagdpanthers and nebelwerfers to my brand new unit I should be able to and not be forced to gather xp first.
Is the AI affected by this?

This game is being dumbed down more and more (as said by others aswell).
I am starting to feel that this unlock system (and other decisions) is a way to limit the players ability to make good decisions, so the AI looks less bad.

 

[Dalwin]

Would it have sounded better if they had called them Practical Application Points instead? It is simply a game mechanic to regulate how quickly divisions evolve through the course of the war. There is nothing RPG like to it, other than the term used.

The RPG element is levelling up commanders which was common to HOI1-HOI3.

 

[BlitzWarfare]

Would it have sounded better if they had called them Practical Application Points instead? It is simply a game mechanic to regulate how quickly divisions evolve through the course of the war. There is nothing RPG like to it, other than the term used.

The RPG element is levelling up commanders which was common to HOI1-HOI3.

The change of equipment in a unit has nothing to do with experience but with how many shit they can produce in the factories.
If I am able to produce an army of tiger IIs I want to equip my army with it and not be limited to pz IVs just because this unit is "new".

 

[Alex_brunius]

They seem to be dumbing it down way too much.

Expanding 5 brigades into 30 battalions and keeping track of individual tanks and equipment = "Dumbing down" and "too arcade"...

 

[Dalwin]

Are we sure that the experience based changes are used to change the equipment in a given Battalion? I thought that was for changing the Battalion makeup of divisions. Those are two very different concepts.

 

[Amallric]

The number isnt really written in stone yet, we have discussed 6 slots, or 12. we'll see where we end up after playing. But if you can fit as many as you want it removes any real choice from the player (assuming cost isnt a big issue here). There are also doctrines affecting stuff here.

The problem isn't really the number in itself, but the fact that there are way too many "frontline" slots and barely enough support slots. Look at any real division OOB, "support" units are much smaller but there is a lot of them. At the very least regimental artillery should be attacheable to the regiments directly and not to the "support unit" slots.

 

[unmerged(83175)]

Expanding 5 brigades into 30 battalions and keeping track of individual tanks and equipment = "Dumbing down" and "too arcade"...

Yes, 30 battalions means nothing if it is more abstract in the end, with HoI3 you only had 5 brigades, but those 5 brigades were detailed with a model picture, statistics, brigade names and tech components. I am a bit worried that this level of detail will be gone with HoI4. My subjective feeling is leaning to the negative side.