Hearts of Iron IV - Dev Diary 6 - Division Design

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Dalwin

Field Marshal
48 Badges
Aug 11, 2003
11.303
6.150
Visit site
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Magicka
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Darkest Hour
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • Crusader Kings II
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
How so? The amount of battles and general opportunities for experience is not a relative thing. Would 300 people working on a car gain ideas and experience equal to one person doing the same in the same time frame? See, that does not really make sense. I can get 300 people not being 300x better, or that the total amount of experience and ideas possible to gain would be the same; but not that a smaller amount would actually be as effective per unit of time. having 3 million men committed to fighting hundreds of battles shouldn't in the same time frame generate the same amount as ten thousand fighting a few, no matter the relative army size.

It's a very artificial construct that seems gamey by nature. To maximize war experience you're incentivised to have as few garrison units or units guarding other fronts as possible, even if you have millions of soldiers already committed to battle. A minor would likewise rather disband one of his two divisions if there isn't opportunity to use both constantly, else he forgoes experience.

300 hundred people working on 300 cars might though. Isn't your example a bit skewed? Plus there is a lot less teamwork and tactics involved in auto repair than in combat. The comparison does not seem to hold up at all. Then again the proportion thing does not have to make any logical sense. It is a play balance decision and nothing else. It is there so that a larger nation does not have yet another huge advantage over smaller ones.
 

podcat

Game Director
Paradox Staff
12 Badges
Jul 23, 2007
12.793
38.305
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Hearts of Iron II: Beta
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Paradox Order
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
How so? The amount of battles and general opportunities for experience is not a relative thing. Would 300 people working on a car gain ideas and experience equal to one person doing the same in the same time frame? See, that does not really make sense. I can get 300 people not being 300x better, or that the total amount of experience and ideas possible to gain would be the same; but not that a smaller amount would actually be as effective per unit of time. having 3 million men committed to fighting hundreds of battles shouldn't in the same time frame generate the same amount as ten thousand fighting a few, no matter the relative army size.

It's a very artificial construct that seems gamey by nature. To maximize war experience you're incentivised to have as few garrison units or units guarding other fronts as possible, even if you have millions of soldiers already committed to battle. A minor would likewise rather disband one of his two divisions if there isn't opportunity to use both constantly, else he forgoes experience.

It makes perfect sense to me. The larger the army the more effort is required to completely reorganize stuff. The military, especially during ww2, could be pretty conservative. Also imagine you have 100 divisions and this one division has been fighting germans in the ardennes while the others just sat around defending successfully on the maginot line. Surely it would be a lot more difficult to convince all the generals of those other 100 divisions that a major structural change is required if they havent been tested.
 

Joppos

Major
35 Badges
Jan 6, 2005
764
456
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
Yes Dalwin, i agree. That was indeed a lousy example.

It makes perfect sense to me. The larger the army the more effort is required to completely reorganize stuff. The military, especially during ww2, could be pretty conservative. Also imagine you have 100 divisions and this one division has been fighting germans in the ardennes while the others just sat around defending successfully on the maginot line. Surely it would be a lot more difficult to convince all the generals of those other 100 divisions that a major structural change is required if they havent been tested.

Actually that makes sense. Although i am under the impression that these points will be for more than divisional organization such as equipment improvement. Say both Germany and Sweden commit half of their units in battle. That could be let's say 2 million men and hundreds of battles for Germany and 20,000 and tens of battles for Sweden, committed to fighting. For Sweden to gain as much ideas and experience per unit of time as Germany seems a bit off. As i mentioned though in the first post was for it to be weighted towards the absolute number of troops, so as to benefit larger nations with a large commitment to fighting without having to resort to minimizing garrisons and troops on quiet fronts. That said, this was just an observation and no real concern, as any eventual weird outcomes would be for the beta process to evaluate.
 

Gamer_1745

Field Marshal
68 Badges
Sep 2, 2012
8.048
4.411
www.youtube.com
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
WWI needs to be taken into account here too. The losers have a greater reason to rethink things, because what they did didn't work. The French just doubled down went more & better on the defensive.

I think the new system makes sense. Not all nations should start at the same point and some should get bonus points. In 1936 Germany did have any airborne Divisions.
In January 1936, 600 men and officers formed a Jäger and an engineer company. Germany's parachute arm was officially inaugurated in 1936 with a call for recruits for a parachute training school. Only in October 1938, the decision was made to raise the 7th Flieger (Air) Division.
4hg3fcyc799rlmmfg.jpg


So will all majors get free airborne division template?
 

Porkman

Field Marshal
20 Badges
Nov 4, 2006
3.219
1.410
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • 500k Club
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
WWI needs to be taken into account here too. The losers have a greater reason to rethink things, because what they did didn't work. The French just doubled down went more & better on the defensive.

I think the new system makes sense. Not all nations should start at the same point and some should get bonus points. In 1936 Germany did have any airborne Divisions.
In January 1936, 600 men and officers formed a Jäger and an engineer company. Germany's parachute arm was officially inaugurated in 1936 with a call for recruits for a parachute training school. Only in October 1938, the decision was made to raise the 7th Flieger (Air) Division.
4hg3fcyc799rlmmfg.jpg


So will all majors get free airborne division template?

Podcat already said that a template is automatically unlocked when a new technology creates a new "primary" (not support) brigade. So if you research tanks, you get a free basic armored division template. If you research paratroopers, you get a free paratrooper template.
 

Gamer_1745

Field Marshal
68 Badges
Sep 2, 2012
8.048
4.411
www.youtube.com
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Pride of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
Airborne is use just as an example. The point is/was that WWI had great effect on militaries at the start of WWII. Why didn't France have airborne divisions? The French couldn't fall out of a plane? Should they be allowed to research them? They had tanks, but no tank divisions until 1940 and could see the effect panzer division had in Poland. And this only reluctantly.

2gzaa2gi8ty4ag6fg.jpg

De Gaulle's ’Toward a Professional Army' pub. in 1936
A veteran of World War I, in the 1920s and 1930s, Charles de Gaulle came to the fore as a proponent of mobile armoured divisions, which he considered would become central in modern warfare. In 1934 he wrote 'Vers l’Armée de Métier' (Toward a Professional Army), which advocated a professional army based on mobile armoured divisions. Such an army would both compensate for the poor French demography, and be an efficient tool to enforce international law, particularly the Treaty of Versailles which forbade Germany from rearming. The book sold only 700 copies in France, where Pétain advocated an infantry-based, defensive army, but 7,000 copies in Germany, where it was read aloud to Adolf Hitler.
 
Last edited:

Dark Jakkaru

Slayer of Bot People
59 Badges
May 25, 2013
559
56
  • March of the Eagles
  • Age of Wonders
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Victoria 2
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH - Initiate of the Order
  • BATTLETECH - Beta Backer
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
Let's not forget that a complex issue of armaments, equipment, and power bases cannot be understood clearly because one guy made it a point that HE was right but failed to somehow influence his nation to change their ways. Everyone writes the history they want, especially if later they feel vindicated by that decision and does manage to rise to power, but that does not mean all other arguments should be derided and thrown into the dustbin of history as you're still as an observer not taking a side will be missing the other pieces to clearly find out WHY things panned out the way they did. While I am not trying to downplay the essentials of De Gaulle and his arguments, it's the clearer picture and plausible INTENT that drives interest in knowing more considering no one here has a crystal ball or are mind readers.

For France, it would be nice to create an effective cavalry mechanized group which time and again gets reviewed with renewed interest as technology changes to helicopters and IFVs. After all, the T-34 was actually not classed as a 'medium tank' but rather a 'fast tank' that was designed as such. Ultimately, it is my opinion that it is essentially an OVER sloped design with minimal room in the fighting compartment for prolonged fighting as you would expect a normal medium tank to do. A more truer medium tank, the T-34M ditching the Cristie suspension, which allowed 30s design like the BT to truely be faster than the lot, with a prime concern for more ammunition to be carried and prolong the fighting capability. The ultimate descendent of the true Medium Tank of the T-34 would eventually be development to the world wide export success of the T-54/T-55 tanks with the right amount of sloped protection to volumetric space in the fighting compartment to have the tank fight better, longer, and ultimately more capable. Notice that the T-54/T-55 have essentially flat sides compared to the T-34.
 

Secret Master

Covert Mastermind
Moderator
95 Badges
Jul 9, 2001
36.579
19.867
www.youtube.com
  • 200k Club
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • March of the Eagles
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Pride of Nations
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Limited Collectors Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • King Arthur II
  • The Kings Crusade
It makes perfect sense to me. The larger the army the more effort is required to completely reorganize stuff. The military, especially during ww2, could be pretty conservative. Also imagine you have 100 divisions and this one division has been fighting germans in the ardennes while the others just sat around defending successfully on the maginot line. Surely it would be a lot more difficult to convince all the generals of those other 100 divisions that a major structural change is required if they havent been tested.

2gzaa2gi8ty4ag6fg.jpg

De Gaulle's ’Toward a Professional Army' pub. in 1936
A veteran of World War I, in the 1920s and 1930s, Charles de Gaulle came to the fore as a proponent of mobile armoured divisions, which he considered would become central in modern warfare. In 1934 he wrote 'Vers l’Armée de Métier' (Toward a Professional Army), which advocated a professional army based on mobile armoured divisions. Such an army would both compensate for the poor French demography, and be an efficient tool to enforce international law, particularly the Treaty of Versailles which forbade Germany from rearming. The book sold only 700 copies in France, where Pétain advocated an infantry-based, defensive army, but 7,000 copies in Germany, where it was read aloud to Adolf Hitler.

:shakes fist:

You beat me to it. De Gaulle's failed attempts to change the French army's thinking is a great example of the difficulty of changing military thinking in the period. He'd seen the war between Poland and the Soviets, and he rightfully concluded that mobile warfare was the next big thing.

Had he been more successful in convincing others, he might have been lauded as a French Guderian. Of course, had he been more successful in convincing others, there might not have been a Battle of France, a defeat, and other historical events that made him the famous figure he became.
 

Dark Jakkaru

Slayer of Bot People
59 Badges
May 25, 2013
559
56
  • March of the Eagles
  • Age of Wonders
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Victoria 2
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH - Initiate of the Order
  • BATTLETECH - Beta Backer
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
As complex as France was at the time, debating strategic and tactical theory is one thing, proving France could actually maintain, equip, and train something like a mobile force was something Weyland was already doing with the French cavalry in the 30s with some great difficulty but on par to the developments of Mechanized Formations of other countries. Given the impact of the Great Depression on military budgets at the time, it becomes clear that the French had actually LOST the tank race compared to the Germans that ironed out all of the early problems associated with the panzer drives through Austria and Czechoslovakia prior to the Polish Campaign and had a year head start on tank production. The very large amount of break downs and lack of support was something France could not avoid as they did not have the luck in invading and testing out the tanks in action in long stretches of advance in other words.

Firstly, in terms of tank numbers, removing obsolete FT-17 tanks from the French roster, the tank ballpark which the French Army deemed ready for combat was not that much different than the total amount of tanks the Germans had. After all, when a factory says they completed a tank for a contract it is usually just the base tank without the armaments or turret in place being of course unusable number in this state. To actually be counted as combat capable it had to be fixed with all equipment and ready to be assigned sitting in reserve. When the real combat capable tank numbers are counted the numbers are not all that much different in total amounts.

Secondly, in terms of tactics, one can simply take advantage of the fact of having to know the complete outcome of the war to know quite clearly the normal foot infantry did have armored units assigned and routinely found tanks and armored fighting vehicles themselves in direct support of infantry assaults in all armies in WW2. The French were actually no different in assigning armored support to infantry formations and had a rough percentage comparable to other armies on the field even to the end of the war, which is about 40-60 percent of the tank ball park assigned in support of the infantry with around 40% for their Mechanized Cavalry Formations (AMR, AMC, etc). The misconception of French tank assignment was truly not the sole cause of failure and defeat. The failure primarily was a lack of anticipation the Germans would do a sickle-cut across the wooded forests with as many armored formations as they could where the French were caught being unable to compensate or counter when the battle was joined. One can easily view how much value the Stug or Sherman armored vehicles late in the war had provided to the infantry formations the valuable service very much required for close support operations.

Thirdly, French Cavalry Tanks were normally designed and requested to have one and a half men to two man turrets which can be seen on the Somua S-35 APX 1CE turret. The controversy of the one man orchestra tanks can be plainly understood with the regular army tanks whose sole intention was not rapid advance but slow methodical pace with the infantry in direct support which would make a one man turret sensible given that it is not expected to perform anything beyond that role. Unfortunately for French Industry, they could not actually produce the required vehicles and saddled the Mechanized Cavalry with the very much unwanted H-35 tank which was not actually fit for Cavalry service and deemed unacceptable. Given the problems with French Industry gearing up to produce tanks, the Cavalry had no choice but to accept the poorly designed tank into its TO&E. Despite both the infantry and especially the cavalry not wanting the Hotchkiss tank ... French Industry was still receiving orders to produce the tank! Also recall that the very numerous Panzer I that was only intended to be a training tank that still equipped Panzer formations or held in reserve even in 1940 were all 1 man turret tanks.
 

shierholzer

Field Marshal
92 Badges
May 26, 2012
3.960
65
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Deus Vult
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
Had he been more successful in convincing others, he might have been lauded as a French Guderian. Of course, had he been more successful in convincing others, there might not have been a Battle of France, a defeat, and other historical events that made him the famous figure he became.
The major difference between Germany and France wasn't de Gaulle's ability to convince people (v Guderian's), but WW1. France won the last major war and had much less reason to rethink their tactics - they'd proven successful after all. Germany on the other hand suffered a crushing defeat in WW1, paving the way for young officers - like Guderian - to propose new tactics. The largest reason for the French defeat in WW2, was their triumph in WW1 - France won too hard, to be able to see a real threat from a forming army on the other side of the Rhine.
 

Klausewitz

Field Marshal
107 Badges
Jul 16, 2009
6.136
1.441
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Surviving Mars
  • Victoria 2
As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time.
 

Klausewitz

Field Marshal
107 Badges
Jul 16, 2009
6.136
1.441
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Surviving Mars
  • Victoria 2
The major difference between Germany and France wasn't de Gaulle's ability to convince people (v Guderian's), but WW1. France won the last major war and had much less reason to rethink their tactics - they'd proven successful after all. Germany on the other hand suffered a crushing defeat in WW1, paving the way for young officers - like Guderian - to propose new tactics. The largest reason for the French defeat in WW2, was their triumph in WW1 - France won too hard, to be able to see a real threat from a forming army on the other side of the Rhine.
Only France did not win the war and Germany did not suffer a crushing defeat.
And both sides were aware of that.
What France did was not complacency, but they actually expanded on what had worked:
Artillery, defence in depth, close coordination with the infantry, etc.
Even the Maginot Line was strategically sound.
And Germany had learned that mobility was the key to winning against a superior coaltion (which they would be facing again).
Both expanded on what they had learned in WWI.
There was no revolution, there was evolution.
 

Dalwin

Field Marshal
48 Badges
Aug 11, 2003
11.303
6.150
Visit site
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Magicka
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Darkest Hour
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Lost Empire - Immortals
  • Crusader Kings II
  • March of the Eagles
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Victoria 2
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • 500k Club
  • Pride of Nations
The major difference between Germany and France wasn't de Gaulle's ability to convince people (v Guderian's), but WW1. France won the last major war and had much less reason to rethink their tactics - they'd proven successful after all. Germany on the other hand suffered a crushing defeat in WW1, paving the way for young officers - like Guderian - to propose new tactics. The largest reason for the French defeat in WW2, was their triumph in WW1 - France won too hard, to be able to see a real threat from a forming army on the other side of the Rhine.

I don't see it as having much to do with the results of the last war. I think it is much simpler than that, a matter of strategic vision. One saw it's primary role as being defensive and had an army and disposition suited for that. The other saw itself in a more offensive role and built accordingly.
 

cfp

Major
3 Badges
Dec 19, 2009
609
10
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Semper Fi
  • 500k Club
Obviously I didn't read 70-some odd pages, but all I can say is Battalions? Yes! That was my main gripe with HOI3, not being able to utilize more support units or anything lower than an entire regiment. This will also allow countries like the USSR to build closer-to-reality divisions (they had something like 7-9k men, including artillery and support units. So very small compared to the 12-18k man German divisions, but numerous)

This sounds wonderful. I'm impressed Paradox!
 

illathid

Elector Count of Reikland
75 Badges
Feb 22, 2012
2.001
591
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity

Dark Jakkaru

Slayer of Bot People
59 Badges
May 25, 2013
559
56
  • March of the Eagles
  • Age of Wonders
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Victoria 2
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • BATTLETECH - Initiate of the Order
  • BATTLETECH - Beta Backer
  • BATTLETECH - Backer
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Semper Fi
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Magicka 2 - Signup Campaign
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
Counters will be on the map, but not till late in development. They may also use NATO symbols for the division planer but that's not for sure yet.

If not strictly NATO, at least something close to it. It's real easy when folks just have some experience with it over time looking at historical TO&E.

At least they aren't using the true version of the Wehrmacht used. That would throw some folks for a fruitloop.