Hearts of Iron IV - Dev Diary 6 - Division Design

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Dalwin

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SM, I want to be fair to HOI. I own every version and DLC of it.

But mass surrenders happened not just during the first 6 months of Barbarossa. France, Singapore, North Africa, and Germans in Russia and France, not to mention Russian troops at the start of the 42 German offensive.

Basically, many of these troops still had the capability to fight and had plenty of organization. They just felt their situation was hopeless. They were cut off so gave up without a fight.

My point is that when looking at production numbers HOI has a potential huge problem. Germany produces way less. Yet somehow they captured, destroyed more for the first half of the war. If a level 2 tank is a level 2 tank no matter what country or name then this creates an issue. If the two sides fight it out I have a bad feeling that Germany will suffer more losses than historically when compared to enemy units lost.

In HOI3 I surround massive SU troops. But instead of surrendering I have to push them into a single province and then kill them off. I have a fear that I'll lose precious tanks doing this, especially if my production is limited to historical numbers. And of course the poor AI.

I know captured equipment is one of the possibilities being looked at. If that actually gets included, it should go a long way toward alleviating the problem you mention. In my opinion, a decent system for incorporating captured equipment would also add some good flavor to the game.
 

Gort11

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My point is that when looking at production numbers HOI has a potential huge problem. Germany produces way less. Yet somehow they captured, destroyed more for the first half of the war. If a level 2 tank is a level 2 tank no matter what country or name then this creates an issue. If the two sides fight it out I have a bad feeling that Germany will suffer more losses than historically when compared to enemy units lost.

The Hearts of Iron 2 solution - Germany gets superior early-war doctrines so their performance is greater than their numbers would suggest. As the war goes on the other nations doctrines catch up and their performance drops accordingly.

Don't worry, if Germany's units don't have an edge it'll show in the first playtest as France, Britain and Poland steamroll them with their material superiority.
 
Last edited:

krche

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SM, I want to be fair to HOI. I own every version and DLC of it.

But mass surrenders happened not just during the first 6 months of Barbarossa. France, Singapore, North Africa, and Germans in Russia and France, not to mention Russian troops at the start of the 42 German offensive.

Basically, many of these troops still had the capability to fight and had plenty of organization. They just felt their situation was hopeless. They were cut off so gave up without a fight.

My point is that when looking at production numbers HOI has a potential huge problem. Germany produces way less. Yet somehow they captured, destroyed more for the first half of the war. If a level 2 tank is a level 2 tank no matter what country or name then this creates an issue. If the two sides fight it out I have a bad feeling that Germany will suffer more losses than historically when compared to enemy units lost.

In HOI3 I surround massive SU troops. But instead of surrendering I have to push them into a single province and then kill them off. I have a fear that I'll lose precious tanks doing this, especially if my production is limited to historical numbers. And of course the poor AI.

I guess you could solve it through a 2 step solution: Firstly, accelerate the attrition when retreating, and make it a function of your org.. I.e. a unit retreating, regardless of the org, should probably have an attrition several times higher than a non retreating units (stragglers, people getting lost etc etc) and when unit organisation starts dropping below 50% then the attrition rate should accelerate, so that a unit with organisation of 0% should bleed troops at an alarming late, maybe 10 times higher than normal, so that the combination of low org and retreat is almost catastrophic. Secondly, you could add a mass surrender calc to the start of every retreat. This should be on the basis of the organisation level and the overall national unity. So that a unit that is heavily disorganised and part of a country with low national unity could just surrender en masse, whereas a well organised unit from a high national unity country should have almost zero risk of mass surrender.
 

potski

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Too simplistic way of looking at it i think.

Yes, the Pz I and Pz II were light tanks (and already outdated before the war), but small tanks costs less to make. Look at it like this.

It is early 1939, and as Germany you are preparing for war. You have 6 Panzer divisions that are "paper divisions" at present, since they all lack equipment. During your gearing up and preparation process, you have researched and built :

1200 Pz I's
800 Pz II's
200 Pz III's

Lets just for arguments sake say that each panzer division has 2 tank battalions, and each battalion takes 200 tanks (as well as excluding model variants for the purpose of this example).

This means that in total, you can fill 11 battalions with tanks of various types, which still leaves you an entire battalion short. In addition to this, your plans call for forming another 6 panzer divisions before the end of 1940, which is yet another 12 battalions, and you must also replace any tank lost between the outbreak of war and the end of 1940 when your next 6 panzer divisions are formed.

Now, your factories are going at it full tilt, and you produce 100 Pz I's, 150 Pz II's and 50 Pz III's a month.

Switching production over from the 100 completely obsolete Pz I's to the "modern" Pz III only lets you produce another 15 Pz III's a month, which is a "loss" of 85 tanks (gearing bonus, the Pz I being smaller and needing less work / materials, etc). So what do you do.. do you keep cranking out Pz I's so you can fill your units on time, and THEN switch over, or do you switch over immediately, and get more modern tanks, but having a severe shortage of them for a very long time ?

That is how i understand it to work at least, so it'll require planning and compromise. There wont be a way of simply chucking all obsolete tanks on the scrap heap and replace them with modern ones, as your industry wont be able to keep up.

This is a good point, but overlooks the purpose of the thread - the Division Designer. Takng the original situation - 6 Divisions with a mix of Pz I and II, plus a few III apparantly filling 11 battalions, I can't see how this is possible. The Armoured Divisions each comprise two battalions, and since we have been creating light tanks (Pz I and II), they will be light tank battalions. You can't put those 200 Pz III's in a light tank battalion.

So there is only 2000 light tanks to go in the 12 light battalions. I'm not clear whether those tanks would be spread equally between the units, or five Divs would be filled out and one would have none. But let's assume it is a daft idea and that we actually have 6 Panzer Divisions, each with 2 battalions of light tanks which we produced in 1936 using a Panzer Division template, and by 1938 many of the Pz I tanks have been upgraded to Pz II.

We have started producing some Pz III tanks and we want to use these to further upgrade our Divs.

It seems to me we have three choices:

Firstly, we can change the Panzer Division template to include a third battalion in the Armoured Brigade, and have this as a medium tank battalion. All of our Divisions now suddenly have an additional battalion in them, and slowly the 200 Pz III's start flowing into these 6 battalions. As above, possibly spread across the battalions equally each getting 33, or filling one whole battalion first and leaving the other five empty for now.

I suspect the latter, and that means there is a random element to which Div gets the benefit of the upgrade first, but you could micro this by setting priorities on each of the six Divs. But we have a situation where we have 5 or 6 Divs which are significantly understrength of our aims. We want them to each have 600 tanks, and we may only have one Div with that number, and five Divs with 400 tanks

Secondly, we can change the Panzer Division template to replace one of the light battalions with a medium battalion. All of our Divisions now adopt the new design. Let's assume that the medium tank battalions can include light tanks, even though the opposite is not true. So we now still have six "full strength" Divs in the sense that they each have the 400 tanks that we want them to have. Now the system starts swapping out Pz I tanks in the medium battalions for Pz III. We keep the overall total of tanks in our Pz force, but have stronger units. Once all of the Pz I have gone then I would imagine it will start on the Pz II, but again it could swap out all of the tanks in the medium battalion in one Div first. Either way Pz I and II tanks will get replaced and flow back into a central equipment tool to be reused in some way later.

Thirdly, we can fork our Panzer Division template into two templates, keeping the original template and creating a copy (which costs zero Land Combat Experience) which we will name "Panzer Division 39". Then we change the 39 template into our new ToE replacing one light battalion with medium (which does cost LCE). This new template could be used to build a completely new Div from scratch, and use the 200 Pz III tanks our factories already produced. But we have decided we don't want that - we want to keep only 6 Divs for now. But we can now choose when to apply the new 39 template to each existing Div. This gives us complete control over the upgrade process - choose one Div, apply the template and it gets the 200 Pz III's. The other five remain on the original ToE until we decide that we have the production in place to provide them with sufficient Pz III's.

I love the idea of the templates. It seems to me to be perfect to mimic the way that changes actually took place. It gives plenty of scope for fine control over the composition of Divs, if you want. Or to just apply changes across the board. And in our example you can have six Panzer Divisions, but none might be identical, with slight variations in the numbers and types of tanks. and therefore in their combat stats. Wow!!

Yet some are still not satisfied that it "dumbs down" the game? I'm completely lost on that - the use of LCE to limit the use of templates seems wholly correct. As Germany in 1936 I can be given some LCE to start with and get more from events, such as the occupation of the Rhineland or Austria. Anything where large scale movements of units occurred, we can learn from, even if there was no actual combat. This allows the game to give more choices to Germany when war breaks out, while leaving France for instance largely locked into the ToE that it had in 1936. Once war breaks out than I don't supposed that LCE is "precious" at all for Germany, and the people who want full "immersion" and to be able to exactly mimic each historical variation in Divs should be able to do it.

The real limitation is only, as I see it, pre-War. I can't start in 1936 as Japan and overhaul all of my Divs ToE's before Marco Polo in 1937. I could be stuck with the largely useless Mixed Brigades, which experience shows (and here I'm not talking of historical experience, but my own personal experience of playing the game) have too few combat brigades to be effective in the frontline if they encounter full sized enemy Divs, and this even includes when they are in battle alongside of full sized JAP "square" Divs. Normal gameplay then becomes to break up the Mixed Brigades and send their individual brigades to strengthen other units. Since it didn't happen historically, and the China AI can't do the same with all of it's units, then it doesn't appear to be a game breaker, rather a game maker that it provides more of a challenge. You get the LCE after Marco Polo to start re-organising, but once war is taking place it becomes difficult to upgrade/redesign the units on the frontline in China. You are more likely to use the new templates to create Divs for other theatres as the war expands.

And the AI can be taught to use the templates in an historical way. So China can get the new style Divs on the German model as a separate template, either provided in the game set-up in 1936, or later generated in-game by an event (I can't remember when China began the process), and the AI can start to reorganise existing Divs or build new Divs according to the new template, providing it has the production of artillery etc. If it doesn't then it should continue largely using the old template.
 

Modestus

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Just to clarify something when I used PZ I, PZ II and PZ III as examples it was just to explain my point about obsolescence and the unlikely scenario that you will have numerous generations of tanks in a single division, not interested in whether one is light or medium or there intended use.

I have concluded from the information so far that its unlikely that a player will have a Mark I, Mark II and a Mark III medium tank in a division all at the same time and that organising your production to prevent this situation happening will be part of the game play.

You could perhaps go further and say that the best use of your earlier tank designs will be to convert them to mobile assault guns or something similar rather then having them languish in Norway.
 

Czert

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will we have ability to create independed BRIGADES ? i think this will be nice to have, sure we can create div with just one brigade..but that will feel wrong.
Why i want this ? simply to even beter reflect history - as germans used thier "fire brigades" of heavy tanks patching holes acros whole front and soviets used thier arty brigades for extra punch in planed breakthrought operations.
 

Klausewitz

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will we have ability to create independed BRIGADES ? i think this will be nice to have, sure we can create div with just one brigade..but that will feel wrong.
Why i want this ? simply to even beter reflect history - as germans used thier "fire brigades" of heavy tanks patching holes acros whole front and soviets used thier arty brigades for extra punch in planed breakthrought operations.
I don't think we will see this.
And i just had a horror vision of the AI using an army only made up of brigades and basically crashing my PC.
Btw: These guys were the Führers Feuerwehr (Führer's Firebrigade) and they were a division.
 

Joppos

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will we have ability to create independed BRIGADES ? i think this will be nice to have, sure we can create div with just one brigade..but that will feel wrong.
Why i want this ? simply to even beter reflect history - as germans used thier "fire brigades" of heavy tanks patching holes acros whole front and soviets used thier arty brigades for extra punch in planed breakthrought operations.

A division will be the smallest unit, although you can have one-brigade divisions effectively representing a brigade.
 

PlacidDragon

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I don't think we will see this.
And i just had a horror vision of the AI using an army only made up of brigades and basically crashing my PC.
Btw: These guys were the Führers Feuerwehr (Führer's Firebrigade) and they were a division.
The heavy panzer brigades, or "Schwere Panzer-Abteilungs" were absolutely fire-brigade's in that sense, used to prop up the front where needed (its amazing how much more of a positive attitude you have if you have 40 Tiger's backing you up, hehe).

That said, if i recall, division is the smallest formation used in HoI 4 (sure, you could put one brigade in it and call it a brigade, but it would still really be a one brigade division).
 

Feld_Webel

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Again thank you for the dev diary its effective at hypinh my interest for this game.

I was wondering however if in the final version the mayor nations would have menu's such as division planner adjusted to their respective country. For me seeing a stuart, crusader, hanomag and studebaker represented in one screen with "Panzer division" on the top just breaks the immersion of the game. I would like to see the mayors have icons and symbols in their menu's that correspond with their nation. So for USA a stuart, sherman, m3halftrack and studebaker. Germany, pz2, phanter, hanomag, opelblitz. etc. And if not would this be moddable? I realise this is a minor thing but I believe it would greatly help with the immersion that you are playing your respective country if all the menu's are adjusted to it.
 

Dalwin

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A division will be the smallest unit, although you can have one-brigade divisions effectively representing a brigade.

Even though the game will consider them a small division, there is no reason why your name for the unit can't incorporate brigade into the name to maintain some of the immersion you seem to be wanting.
 

Joppos

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Even though the game will consider them a small division, there is no reason why your name for the unit can't incorporate brigade into the name to maintain some of the immersion you seem to be wanting.

I think it will be a fine system even without such a naming function. I was merely relaying what we know of the game at this time. That said, such a naming function does seem simple enough to implement.
 

D Inqu

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But mass surrenders happened not just during the first 6 months of Barbarossa. France, Singapore, North Africa, and Germans in Russia and France, not to mention Russian troops at the start of the 42 German offensive.

My point is that when looking at production numbers HOI has a potential huge problem. Germany produces way less. Yet somehow they captured, destroyed more for the first half of the war. If a level 2 tank is a level 2 tank no matter what country or name then this creates an issue. If the two sides fight it out I have a bad feeling that Germany will suffer more losses than historically when compared to enemy units lost.

In HOI3 I surround massive SU troops. But instead of surrendering I have to push them into a single province and then kill them off. I have a fear that I'll lose precious tanks doing this, especially if my production is limited to historical numbers. And of course the poor AI.

None of these examples involved mass surrenders, most stories about them are a myth.

France - country begs for peace. Until that point, there was no mass surrenders. In-game annexations wipe enemy units, so that works.

Singapore - unbelievably poor command that could not control or manoeuvre his numerically superior (if not very well equipped or trained force). Followed up by the belief of a Japanese bluff. Yet, at the point of surrender, the allies have basically run out of ammo and had no air support so they were collapsing and hardly in fighting shape.

Barbarossa - no mass surrenders. The Axis had to spend valuable time and material and men to reduce the pockets. If not for the massive numerical superiority in early Barbarossa, this would have not worked. If you look up German casualties, you will notice that the first 3 months of the war were the worst for the Germans in terms of casualties until Stalingrad. Clearly not because of massed surrenders. Note - historically, to prevent your very concern of losing tanks, the panzer divisions did not participate in reducing pockets, this task was left to infantry.

North Africa - the Italian army performance was very poor on all levels, from outdated equipment, to commanders who were incompetent to soldiers who were poorly trained and had little discipline or cohesion.

All these situation can be represented quite well in game, with existing mechanics. If a country is collapsing as a whole, pre-annexation surrenders can be tied to National Unity
 

Dalwin

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Another thing too often overlooked about the early part of Barbarossa is that, in spite of warnings from British intel and other sources, the Soviets were caught by surprise and badly so. Planes on airfields were lined up instead of dispersed ala Pearl Harbor. Front line units were not at full supply. Too many of the forward supply dumps were positioned too far forward and quickly overrun. STAVKA ordered counter attacks almost immediately but their units were in no shape to do so. Those that tried to do so only made things worse for themselves.
 

ikalugin

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Would it possible to field support only divisions, as to provide the player with ability to quickly concentrate his high end supporting units on the point of decision?
 

podcat

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Would it possible to field support only divisions, as to provide the player with ability to quickly concentrate his high end supporting units on the point of decision?

Maybe. Its something we plan to test at least so it might be good. or not :p
 

Dalwin

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Maybe. Its something we plan to test at least so it might be good. or not :p

This is an allusion most would not catch, being from Rowan and Martin's Laugh In from the 1970s, but I picture Artie Johnson in a German helmet peeking out from behind some bushes with his tag line "Interesting, very interesting."
 

jju_57

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None of these examples involved mass surrenders, most stories about them are a myth.

France - country begs for peace. Until that point, there was no mass surrenders. In-game annexations wipe enemy units, so that works.

Singapore - unbelievably poor command that could not control or manoeuvre his numerically superior (if not very well equipped or trained force). Followed up by the belief of a Japanese bluff. Yet, at the point of surrender, the allies have basically run out of ammo and had no air support so they were collapsing and hardly in fighting shape.

Barbarossa - no mass surrenders. The Axis had to spend valuable time and material and men to reduce the pockets. If not for the massive numerical superiority in early Barbarossa, this would have not worked. If you look up German casualties, you will notice that the first 3 months of the war were the worst for the Germans in terms of casualties until Stalingrad. Clearly not because of massed surrenders. Note - historically, to prevent your very concern of losing tanks, the panzer divisions did not participate in reducing pockets, this task was left to infantry.

North Africa - the Italian army performance was very poor on all levels, from outdated equipment, to commanders who were incompetent to soldiers who were poorly trained and had little discipline or cohesion.

All these situation can be represented quite well in game, with existing mechanics. If a country is collapsing as a whole, pre-annexation surrenders can be tied to National Unity

So even with you admitting that there were mass surrenders while you claim extenuating circumstances? Here are some mass surrenders for many varied reasons. It doesn't matter why, the point is they didn't fight to the last man but gave up.

1) Netherlands army surrenders en mass after bombing of Rotterdam. Almost entire army intact.
2) On may 17th Rommel reported that he captured 10,000 French prisoners.
3) On may 19th Rommel reported another 10,000 French prisoners after a short engagement.
4) Before Dunkirk near Lille some 40,000 French soldiers gave up.
5) Around 80,000 at Singapore. Poor tactics were the main cause. While the allies were running low on ammunition so were the Japanese. So no excuse there.
6) After the initial Italian attack over 100,00 Italians were captured by just 30,000 British troops. Many laid down their guns and quit.
7) Tunisia resulted in over 230,00 Axis troops giving up.
8) Barbarossa and so many other battles resulted in many mass surrenders. I'm astonished you think otherwise.
9) July 3rd, Bialystok pocket 300,000 surrender.
10) July 26 around 100,000 near Mogilev give up.
11) August 3rd, a measly 38,000 give up near Roslavl.
12) August 8th over 100,000 surrender in the Uman Pocket.
13) September 19th,at Kiev over 600,000 surrender.

And of course this happened to both sides many more times during that part of the war. Some happened after a fierce engagement but others happened because they were simply cut off.

The game doesn't really reflect this. And it's not the games fault in many ways. After all some places fought and held out and didn't give up. While other fights were over in a couple of days or even hours. So HOI decided to err on the side of fighting. I understand that. If every encircled army just gave up we wouldn't see a fight like Lenningrad.
 

misterbean

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If every encircled army just gave up we wouldn't see a fight like Lenningrad.

Minor correction: you meant Stalingrad, I think.