Hearts of Iron IV - 47th Development Diary - 4th of March 2016

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Dinglehoff

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What´s the alternative then (if one want's to have a chance for a historical outcome in this conflict). I also begin to expect that many people don´t want to see the PRC being formed and that's why they are so negative in boosting them in any way.
Suspect whatever you like. Conditions in the game may not conform to the historical baseline, so events should not be designed that retcon these changes. Instead, the alternative is to make a system which can facilitate historical developments as part of normal game progression.
 
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agentgb

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Because they should come from somewhere. At least lower manpower pool slightly for the nations that were likely to have Communist Sympathizers that would travel all the way to China to support the Chinese communist state. Also their arms need to come from somewhere, likely from Communist China instead.

This magic troops out of nowhere has been a bandaid balancing tool that's over used in many Paradox games. Think of all the magic giant rebel stacks that spawn in EU and CK series.

it's fairly accurate i think, having them magically appear, the ccp manpower grew because they did less fighting, and when they did, it was guerilla warfare, and they used that as a recruiting tool, instead of the more conventional fighting of the KMT that wasn't such a great recruiting tool i guess, numbers picked up pretty quickly by the end of the war

here's a really good article worth reading, here a snip from it.

This was highly successful. According to the CCP’s own estimates, it began the war with 30,000 troops. By Victory Day, it had 1.2 million regular troops and around 2.6 million to 3 million militia under its command. It was also quick to seize the areas that the Japanese army was vacating, and seized the Japanese equipment. In fact, in some instances it even forced the Japanese soldiers to join the Red Army (the KMT did the same). Of course, the war not only allowed the CCP to grow much stronger, but it also greatly depleted the Nationalist’s strength. This allowed the CCP to prevail easily in the civil war.

This was not by accident but by design. The CCP had a choice: it could have prioritized defending the country against Japan during the war, or it could have prioritized seizing control of China from those who did fight the Japanese. It chose the latter. Meanwhile, by choosing to actually try to defend China against Japan during the war, the Nationalists handed the country to the CCP afterwards.

At the onset of the war, then, the CCP was not in any position to defend anyone from the formidable Japanese military. In fact, it wasn’t even in a position to defend itself from the KMT. The initial battles of the second Sino-Japanese War in southern China were the largest ones, and the KMT fought them alone.

This would be the trend of the entire war. As two scholars note, “From 1937 to 1945, there were 23 battles where both sides employed at least a regiment each. The CCP was not a main force in any of these. The only time it participated, it sent a mere 1,000 to 1,500 men, and then only as a security detachment on one of the flanks.There were 1,117 significant engagements on a scale smaller than a regular battle, but the CCP fought in only one. Of the approximately 40,000 skirmishes, just 200 were fought by the CCP, or 0.5 percent.”

By the CCP’s own accounts during the war, it barely played a role. Specifically, in January 1940 Zhou Enlai sent a secret report to Joseph Stalin which said that over a million Chinese had died fighting the Japanese through the summer of 1939. He further admitted that only 3 percent of those were CCP forces. In the same letter, Zhou pledged to continue to support Chiang and recognize “the key position of the Kuomintang in leading the organs of power and the army throughout the country.” In fact, in direct contradiction to Xi’s claims on Wednesday, Zhou acknowledged that Chiang and the KMT “united all the forces of the nation” in resisting Japan’s aggression.

While the KMT were busy uniting the country and fighting the Japanese military, CCP forces spent much of the early part of the war hiding in the mountains to avoid battle. As the KMT was decimated by the Japanese military, it was forced to retreat further south. At the same time, the Japanese forces largely focused on securing control of Chinese cities and strategic infrastructure, while ignoring China’s massive countryside. Thus, the KMT’s efforts to actually defend China created a power vacuum in rural areas, which the CCP came out of hiding to seize. It used its control over these villages to perfect its propaganda and political efforts, and hid among the population to avoid fighting the Japanese army. According to Soviet military advisers stationed in CCP-controlled areas at the time, the CCP also used this land to grow opium to fund its growing operations.

As far as fighting went, the CCP engaged in guerilla warfare and sabotage missions. This certainly annoyed the Japanese forces, but it did not have a significant impact on Japan’s war operations. In fact, even the Japanese North China Area Army — which had command over the northern areas where the CCP was located and the KMT was relatively weaker than elsewhere —continued to see defeating the KMT as its primary objective. The greater impact of these guerilla operations was in helping the CCP win new recruits. The CCP used their “heroic” operations against the hated Japanese enemy to recruit young men (and women) to their cause,

here the article if you want the full read, really worth the read too.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/09/the-ccp-didnt-fight-imperial-japan-the-kmt-did/
 
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Sergius64

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Arms come from the destroyed Kwantung Army (completely historical since the Soviets did leave the equipment there on purpose for Mao's forces).

During the civil war oppression from the KMT made LOADS of former peasants/workers/students join the communists and there where also defections from the KMT Armed Forces. These are the 'magical' soldiers you are critical of.

Ok, if both of those are true then it could be modeled with SU giving away some of their own small arms and PRC getting the same amount if the SU player/AI chooses that decision. Meanwhile if the peasants/workers/students and defectors from KMT, then KMT should lose some manpower and maybe even some military units to model that. It's a zero-sum game.

it's fairly accurate i think, having them magically appear, the ccp manpower grew because they did less fighting, and when they did, it was guerilla warfare, and they used that as a recruiting tool, instead of the more conventional fighting of the KMT that wasn't such a great recruiting tool i guess, numbers picked up pretty quickly by the end of the war

In that case it once again probably should be handled by KMT losing manpower to offset PRC getting these units. Or perhaps give some kind of a gradually increasing bonus to PRC and maulus to KMT the longer the war against Japan continues.

---------------

Guys I don't so much have a problem with PRC getting troops, but these troops have to come from somewhere.
 
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Cardus

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it's fairly accurate i think, having them magically appear, the ccp manpower grew because they did less fighting, and when they did, it was guerilla warfare, and they used that as a recruiting tool, instead of the more conventional fighting of the KMT that wasn't such a great recruiting tool i guess, numbers picked up pretty quickly by the end of the war

here's a really good article worth reading, here a snip from it.
While the KMT were busy uniting the country and fighting the Japanese military, CCP forces spent much of the early part of the war hiding in the mountains to avoid battle. As the KMT was decimated by the Japanese military, it was forced to retreat further south. At the same time, the Japanese forces largely focused on securing control of Chinese cities and strategic infrastructure, while ignoring China’s massive countryside. Thus, the KMT’s efforts to actually defend China created a power vacuum in rural areas, which the CCP came out of hiding to seize. It used its control over these villages to perfect its propaganda and political efforts, and hid among the population to avoid fighting the Japanese army. According to Soviet military advisers stationed in CCP-controlled areas at the time, the CCP also used this land to grow opium to fund its growing operations.

here the article if you want the full read, really worth the read too.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/09/the-ccp-didnt-fight-imperial-japan-the-kmt-did/

Not you obviously but the author is just silly. How could be possible that the CCP could attack the Japanese? The CCP tried to recover and could do little versus the Japanese. Instead the (very corrupt) KMT received a lot of money and material from the USA therefore was able to keep busy the bulk of the Japanese army while the Allies could defeat the remainder. Germany lost the land war in Soviet Union and Japan lost it in China.
 
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agentgb

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In that case it once again probably should be handled by KMT losing manpower to offset PRC getting these units. Or perhaps give some kind of a gradually increasing bonus to PRC and maulus to KMT the longer the war against Japan continues.

---------------

Guys I don't so much have a problem with PRC getting troops, but these troops have to come from somewhere.

oh boy, i wish i could be like you, and have such a minor concern about somthing as such as magical manpower, i understand where your coming from though, just think it's quite minor.

Not you obviously but the author is just silly. How could be possible that the CCP could attack the Japanese? The CCP tried to recover and could do little versus the Japanese. Instead the (very corrupt) KMT received a lot of money and material from the USA therefore was able to keep busy the bulk of the Japanese army while the Allies could defeat the remainder. Germany lost the land war in Soviet Union and Japan lost it in China.

ahhh,, you are correct, i think the author mentions everything you said there apart from the KMT being corrupt, and the lend lease/aid, also i should probably add that perhaps the article isn't entirely objective, since it's written with a motive, but it is factual in what it does mention, even if it does pick and choose as to what to include in the article.
 
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Wimpola

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Will Chinese troops be weaker than Japanese or at least not have a great industry just like in the real war?
 

Wimpola

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Who here just scrolled down right when they clicked this DD and said something without reading it so they would be first on the comments list?
 
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LordLoko

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not sure, there tends to be problems with us representing tibet as a separate nation

You already done Shadow Hitler. Can't you do a special Chinese version? Like, put the old flag of the 5 races as KMTs flag and put Tibet under KMT control, shadow Chiang and bam, chinese government friendly version
 
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Price21

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You already done Shadow Hitler. Can't you do a special Chinese version? Like, put the old flag of the 5 races as KMTs flag and put Tibet under KMT control, shadow Chiang and bam, chinese government friendly version
Sounds pretty lame, If I was Chinese I wouldn't want that,
But then again i'm not Chinese.. haha ;p
 
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Ctanr

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I remember writing one year ago "it would be cool if you released the game on 8th May", and I would like to repeat that statement
but because it's highly unlikely that you will finish in two months, I want to change my sentence into "it would be cool if you released the game on 1st September"


@podcat it is such a pity that you wont release the game at the 9th of may because i would love to get home drunk from the victory party (with soviet veterans of WW2) here in berlin,cover me in my awesome soviet flag, crying "black was the night,white was the snow and from all sides came the red army" (it does rhyme in german) and killing the wehrmacht in HOI IV
 
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OBRkenobi

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OBRkenobi

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no it wouldnt. we looked into it.

There is so much dynamic and timing dependent stuff that it fits much better as event series.
And its more interesting and immersive that way! :D
 

Porkman

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What!??? Are you serious?
Soviet is a Russian word.


It's the word they used. Believe it or not, Chinese didn't have it's own word for a communist state in the 30s. They borrowed the Soviet one.

The official name in 1937 was
中華蘇維埃共和國.

中華 means Chinese
蘇聯 means Soviet
共和國 means republic
 
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Super-Soviet

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Technically, the Chinese Soviet Republic was dissolved in 1937, one year after the games start date, as a direct result of the foundation of the Second United Front. Historians refer only to "Communist China" in the period that follows, which ends in 1949 with the establishment of the Peoples Republic.

So it should really be called Communist China, as that was the only name those territories had for most of the games timeline - like it was in HOI3.
 
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LordLoko

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Sounds pretty lame, If I was Chinese I wouldn't want that,
But then again i'm not Chinese.. haha ;p

This is not a version to make the Chinese players happy, it's a version to make the Chinese GOVERNMENT happy
 
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