Hearts of Iron IV - 44th Development Diary - 12th of February 2016

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How moddable will the occupation laws be?
Could you please enable an option where some of them could be made country-specifically unavailable unless certain circumstances (set time, certain national focus and/or other requirements like certain tech researched) are met?

By allowing modders to tweak the occupation laws like this, one could have a modded game where Nazi Germany couldn't just set up mild occupation policy to Poland and Soviet territory from the start of the war, unless they have the "Sensible occupational policy" National Focus enabled.

When reading this, my thoughts went to the occupation of Denmark. It was initially very lenient and in HOI3 terms the very definition of a collaboration policy. At the same time the policy in Poland was quite harsh.
 
Except looking at my book on the Soviet Partisan Movement, they had about 80,000 partisans behind Army Group Centre on 1st October 1943, with some groups as large as 15,000. There were also another 13,000 behind Army Group North. They had formed into actual combat units that controlled territory unless the Germans concentrated significant forces to drive them out, which left other areas undefended or weakened the front lines. They weren't well equipped with heavy weapons as there's a limit as to what could be flown or parachuted in or how much they could capture and maintain, but they caused big problems for the Germans that went well beyond we need to add an extra infantry battalion with its attached police company to that state.

The Yugoslavs also formed combat units from their partisans, growing in numbers from 80000 in late 1941 to more than 300000 by late 1943, as did the Poles in their uprising.

I think that resistance is going to be another area that won't be modelled well by the state mechanic (as opposed to provinces) as occupation forces could concentrate on keeping the main lines of communications through a state open, while there were large numbers of partisans in the woods on either side.
The problem is not realism, its gameplay mechanics. Its not fun to play whackamole, and the AI cannot handle it or it provides too many opportunities for a human player to take advantage of the AI.

The units garrisoned in a state represent counter insurgency forces, cavalry is better at it because of mobility and capacity to respond to emerging threats. At some point there has to be an admission this is a game not a simulator.
 
The problem is not realism, its gameplay mechanics. Its not fun to play whackamole, and the AI cannot handle it or it provides too many opportunities for a human player to take advantage of the AI.

The units garrisoned in a state represent counter insurgency forces, cavalry is better at it because of mobility and capacity to respond to emerging threats. At some point there has to be an admission this is a game not a simulator.

If you read my earlier post I said that HOI3 did not do a good job with representing uprisings, but there should still be some mechanism for partisan forces to eventually gain control of territory in the absence of sufficient garrison forces. Whack a mole may not be fun, but it is a penalty for players who refuse to garrison captured territory as agressors needed to do, and as Paradox intends that we do in HOI4, otherwise there would be no need for police companies.
 
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The problem is not realism, its gameplay mechanics. Its not fun to play whackamole, and the AI cannot handle it or it provides too many opportunities for a human player to take advantage of the AI.

The units garrisoned in a state represent counter insurgency forces, cavalry is better at it because of mobility and capacity to respond to emerging threats. At some point there has to be an admission this is a game not a simulator.

It doesn't have to be whack-a-mole. Unlike HoI3, where it was virtually impossible to prevent there being conqured regions with positive revolt risk (thus guaranteeing regular partisans popping up and needing whacking), the system outlined in this DD actually outlines a pretty transparent and manageable way of handling actual uprisings. For example, only have a chance partisans appear if a state has 100% resistance - allowing players to be able to quickly tend to regions that have hit 100% by sending enough troops there to bring it down to 99.9 (a plausible mechanic - partisans are unlikely to launch an uprising if their occupiers have just marched in a few divisions to settle things down) - but players that don't garrison things enough will be punished if they do it for long enough.

That said, this new system is a big step forward, and I'm a big fan - and designed in a way that gives it ample room to expand it with DLC to involve other states supporting/supplying partisans and actual uprisings if the devs think this is a good idea.
 
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You cant make games in this way, or you end up making 10 games. You pick the one you want to have.

I am confused. In other games like Sid Meier's Civilization 5, the player has a CHOICE about various game features. This was available in the 2012 game version.

One of these is to have the Barbarian Option --- or Not.
Surely such a feature is programmable into HOI IV !?!?!

In HOI IV, this would be the Partisan Unit Option - or Not.
I have tried to add a screenshot image -- I am not sure whether this has occurred.
Irrespective - the link is here;
https://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://cdn.makeuseof.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Civ5-Advanced-Setup.jpg%3F26523c&imgrefurl=http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-ways-to-keep-civilization-5-interesting-while-you-wait-for-beyond-earth/&h=474&w=488&tbnid=yeFfJaEtpJWSfM:&docid=X6BHYM7yEo3FvM&ei=1bq-VpXHEMWU0gSJg5KoBg&tbm=isch&ved=0ahUKEwjVhePy_PPKAhVFipQKHYmBBGUQMwgmKAswCw

imgres


OT: In the previous Forum Version, I was able to upload screenshot image from my computer -- is this function now disabled??
 
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OT: In the previous Forum Version, I was able to upload screenshot image from my computer -- is this function now disabled??

In case it helps, you can deffo upload pictures, but it's a two-step process now - in the bottom-right of the reply or post box, there's an 'upload file' button. Use this to load up your screenshot, then you'll have a choice after it's loaded to display it as a full image or a screenshot. I've posted a stack in the pick-a-ship thread, and the system had a couple of wobbles, but by and large it worked smoothly (at least for jpgs).
 
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In case it helps, you can deffo upload pictures, but it's a two-step process now - in the bottom-right of the reply or post box, there's an 'upload file' button. Use this to load up your screenshot, then you'll have a choice after it's loaded to display it as a full image or a screenshot. I've posted a stack in the pick-a-ship thread, and the system had a couple of wobbles, but by and large it worked smoothly (at least for jpgs).

@Axe99 --- you are definitely a gentleman and a scholar.
Applying your advice...............now.! Civ_5_-_advanced_game_setup_screen_-_No_barbarian_choice_for_players.png
 
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The more options you put in, the more testing and balancing you need to do. There's also a difference between the barbarian option in Civ, where barbarians either spawn or simply don't exist, and an option to still have partisans, but to have them operate in a completely different way.
 
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You cant make games in this way, or you end up making 10 games. You pick the one you want to have.

How come Matrix/Slitherine Commander Europe at war has a lot of options to chose for at the beginning ? It isn't 10 games, it's still one game but with much more flexibility to please the players and add replayability value.

That being said, Paradox HOI series is far superior on most aspects. I also understand that adding options is possibly a balancing nightmare for such a complex game as HOI as the AI has to be able to adapt, that could explain the lack of options.

I'm already really grateful for the option for a more historical or sandbox national focuses paths.
 
That being said, Paradox HOI series is far superior on most aspects. I also understand that adding options is possibly a balancing nightmare for such a complex game as HOI as the AI has to be able to adapt, that could explain the lack of options.

That's the major factor in my opinion. Having a complete different behavior of partisans means that the AI has to react on it on tactical level by deploying troops (or not if disabled), and on a strategic level by building the right amount and the right type of garnisions. And the AI is probably one of the hardest parts in such a game with so many different aspects to check...
 
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First off, love this DD, and the changes from Hoi3. This looks great, from the effects to how we can interact with it.

That said, some detail decission disagreements. (But still very positive about this DD !!! )



Anti Communist Resistance lasted a long time in Eastern Europe. Eg

  • Baltic partisans known as the "Forest Brothers" fought until eradicated in the early 1960s.
  • Polish partisans known as the "Cursed soldiers" fought until eradicated in 1963.
  • Bulgarian partisans known as "Goryani" fought until eradicated in the early 1960s.
  • Croatian partisans known as "Crusaders" fought until eradicated in the early 1950s.
  • Serbian partisans known as "Chetniks" fought until eradicated in the early 1950s.
  • Slovenian partisans fought until eradicated in the early 1950s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_European_anti-Communist_insurgencies

There's more to those conflicts than locals fighting against occupying forces. Lets just say that the real difference between partisans in HoI and the above-listed 'campaigns' is that local partisans arise spontaneously as a direct result of the occupation.

In the vast majority (if not all) of the list above, there were 'third-party' powers involved. Its closer to EU's "Support Rebels" than partisans in HoI.

As well, you could discuss mechanisms that would simulate the reduction of productivity and the stability of the society, but its much different than an organised unit of ~regiment/brigade strength taking control of an entire province and maintaining that hold until a major military formation comes and destroys them.

There's a big difference between a bunch of civilians manning a bunch of barricades and taking over government buildings and 3000+ organized armed men who have permanently committed themselves to applying strictly military goals to their agenda.

'History is written by the victors' so to speak - and there aren't many "communist" victors around these days, if you catch my meaning.
 
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I agree. It feels gamey that if you want to play optimally you have to use cavalry as partisan suppression troops...
I hear what everybody is saying about "why cavalry have more suppression".

Off the top of my head, I can see a reasonable argument that 'Quick Reaction' and mobility correlating with or being a key ingredient of good suppression. Especially in rural areas with large difficult terrain to cover.

Historically, countries like US used cavalry this way (Indian wars). And I can site UK example of mounted Yeomanry being 'quick' response to feared revolutionary strife circa 1840's

Then what did the most iconic counter guerrilla unit get called 'Air Cavalry'

So I could see mobility correlating with suppression. And with horses they can go places trucks of the 30's and 40's can't. Again Pripet and Yugoslavia, Greece.

So for consistency I'd give motorised infantry more suppression than leg, and less than Cavalry.
 
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There's more to those conflicts than locals fighting against occupying forces. Lets just say that the real difference between partisans in HoI and the above-listed 'campaigns' is that local partisans arise spontaneously as a direct result of the occupation.

In the vast majority (if not all) of the list above, there were 'third-party' powers involved. Its closer to EU's "Support Rebels" than partisans in HoI.

As well, you could discuss mechanisms that would simulate the reduction of productivity and the stability of the society, but its much different than an organised unit of ~regiment/brigade strength taking control of an entire province and maintaining that hold until a major military formation comes and destroys them.

There's a big difference between a bunch of civilians manning a bunch of barricades and taking over government buildings and 3000+ organized armed men who have permanently committed themselves to applying strictly military goals to their agenda.

'History is written by the victors' so to speak - and there aren't many "communist" victors around these days, if you catch my meaning.

Hey, there's a whole lot more to every conflict. Especially insurgency types. Spanish civil war; Syria??? Yes lots of micro and macro interests. But I reckon they were anti communist 'partisans' in Hoi sense.

Plus counter factual !! Do we really think that anti Nazi sabotage and ambushes would have stopped because London eventually aid ok for peace you have Poland, Yugoslavia, Ukraine, and Greece. I reckon if Nazis were still Nazis in those areas there's a reasonable chance bombs would still be going off there now.

Off topic- don't worry about communists being defeated- there's plenty of them after WW2 until the wall came down (and still around).
 
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The more options you put in, the more testing and balancing you need to do. There's also a difference between the barbarian option in Civ, where barbarians either spawn or simply don't exist, and an option to still have partisans, but to have them operate in a completely different way.

One way you can go about this (and this thought is very much inspired by a post by @Jazumir in the Oil, Logistics and Supply thread - I deserve no credit beyond transplanting it) is to have check boxes just for the human player. That way, it becomes much easier to code (the AI don't need to adapt to it), but human players still get some flexibility to their gameplay (and difficulty level, beyond the usual flat bonuses for production and what-have-you). It's all gravy, of course, and at the moment I wouldn't want the team to be distracted from taking what they've got in beta and polishing it into a gem for release, but if down the track they did things like this, it might be more practical/feasible?

@The Albatross - always happy to help :).
 
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Add resistance limit like 25% if gentlest and 50 for more and 100% for all other cause i don't think we should have much resistant if you don't change their everyday lifes
 
cavalry is better at it because of mobility and capacity to respond to emerging threats.

As discussed above, not particularly. There is nothing that particularly suits cavalry for CO-IN warfare. Arguably they have greater mobility and this always helps, but this is even more true of recon and motorised infantry units. Light infantry were arguably better since dismounted troops were less likely to walk into ambushes, be hit by mines etc. and could operate in rougher terrain.

Then what did the most iconic counter guerrilla unit get called 'Air Cavalry'

Essentially light infantry though, and the best thing about helicopters is that they can't be ambushed so easily.

So I could see mobility correlating with suppression. And with horses they can go places trucks of the 30's and 40's can't. Again Pripet and Yugoslavia, Greece.

But then again, cavalry cannot operate easily in rough, mountainous terrain. Again, leg-infantry appear better suited for this. The fact that cavalry divisions were employed in these areas is more a measure of how they weren't suited for other activities.

Cavalry as "anti-partisan specialists" was basically introduced in HOI2 and has become accepted as kinda-sorta true, but it isn't really. In reality, the main thing that suits units for anti-partisan warfare, other than detailed training of the kind that didn't really happen in WW2, is what they don't have: heavy equipment.

PS - Checking pictures of the various SS Cavalry divisions in operation, you'll see lots of pictures of them operating dismounted. Patrolling seems to have been done mainly on foot, with cavalry perhaps used for mobility between areas of operation.
 
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Any thought given to anti-resistance force also radiating outwards, so a strongly garrisoned region that was pushing down resistance there might have some impact on a neighbouring region? Just a thought.

Since resistance grows from cities/VP areas garrisoning these with MP will effecitvely make the resistance reduction flow outwards as you mentioned
 
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Since resistance grows from cities/VP areas garrisoning these with MP will effecitvely make the resistance reduction flow outwards as you mentioned

Cheers for the response and clarification (that makes sense, I just wasn't bright enough to connect the dots), sounds like a very good way to do it :).