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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Vukodav

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We didn't have battalion sized divisional components in HOI3

I get it you did not play the game? Partisans would show up as a regimental sized units that could be organized into a division. Just like in HoI4 you can have a division with as least as two regiments.

To claim that it was the equivalent of 20 divisions "operating" throughout the war is something completely different (outright silly even)

Not equivalent to divisions - they were divisions. Divisions of militia units - but organized like divisions non the less. And they fought like divisional formations not independent regiments.

Less than a handful during the entire war is "most"?

Yes, most. Most operations that were not sabotages were actual large formation fights. Communists had seven of those before the Russians came and Royalists had just as much (although they had them with both Germans and communist).
 
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FOARP

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You should take a step back, take a deep breath and stop worrying about revisionalist agendas. Currently you're just coming across as less than polite or cool headed. It's a game, and one from the better Series of games at that when it comes to being non-biased.

This is why I checked out of this discussion a few pages back. When someone just straight-up denies historical evidence from Soviet officials that blocking detachments actually killed people but instead claims that tens of thousands of executions were "practically doing police work", states that a wiki page describes blocking detachment as fictional when it actually cites Soviet histories as showing that they did exist and just has a section on fiction, cites the incorrect finish-date for the initial German drive through the Baltics (yes, it was July 9th, 1941), denies eye-witness accounts of Soviet soldiers being deployed with only a few tens of rifles amongst hundreds, foams at the mouth about certain films/games when the only person referencing those films/games is him, denies data from the Soviet archives showing that hundreds of thousands of Soviet citizens served as HiWis unearthed by Antony Beevor based on spurious claims attributed to Solzhenitsyn, carries on and on about "Western bias" and goes on about how he knows more about the East simply because he thinks he's addressing people who have only ever lived in the West (I actually spent the last ~6 years in Poland, and am married to a Polish woman, before that I lived for significant periods in China/Japan), then you know you're not debating with someone who is arguing in good faith.
 
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Praetori

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I get it you did not play the game? Partisans would show up as a regimental sized units that could be organized into a division. Just like in HoI4 you can have a division with as least as two regiments.
You do realize a battalion is much smaller than a regiment or brigade yes? If so I'm not sure I follow your logic in the reply to what i wrote.

That divisional sized partisan units making a show and occupying territory and fighting battles on any relevant scale was pretty uncommon throughout the entire war is not something anyone made up (it did happen but so did a lot of other things like B-25s attacking Tokyo from an aircraft carrier). The fact that this is portrayed in HOI3 but not in HOI4 is about a relevant discussion on realism as the lack of battalion sized units or individual aircraft production in HOI3. Battalion and Brigade combat action was a key piece in WW2 but the scale is insignificant in a grand-strategy title and so are multiple uprisings of a couple of thousand guerrillas for the exact same reasons. There's simply no mechanics available to handle it so it's abstracted just as a lot of other things. It was tested in HOI3 and it didn't work out without becoming whack-a-mole for the players and AI and so I fully understand PDS decision not to include it in the first iteration.

I would love to see smaller scale engagements if the mechanics could support them and if it doesn't create micromanagement hell for players. It would for example make Weserübung and the fighting in Norway both more interesting and operationally relevant on a realistic perspective as well as many other engagements but if resistance movements and small scale engagements are abstracted for core-game playability at release I'm fine with it.
 
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fellaz007

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I agree with your reasoning. :)

B-24s attacking Tokyo from an aircraft carrier

But the Doolittle Raid used B-25 'Mitchell' medium bombers and not B-24 'Liberator' heavy bombers. :D
 
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Praetori

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I agree with your reasoning. :)



But the Doolittle Raid used B-25 'Mitchell' medium bombers and not B-24 'Liberator' heavy bombers. :D
Indeed but the 4 and 5 are very close to the keyboard and writing quick posts at work isn't helping with my accuracy. :D
Tnx fixed.
 
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Gort11

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Yeah, I think the large-scale partisan uprisings would be better represented in the events system. Unless things go very ahistorical you should only really see that kind of thing a couple of times a game.

There are a bunch of cool things you could represent in the game that are just too small-scale to matter in a divisional-scale game - partisans and commando raids are a couple of these.

To put it into perspective, the largest partisan uprising - the Warsaw Uprising - would be represented as between two and five badly-trained, badly-equipped divisions appearing in the middle of a clash between two militaries with hundreds of divisions each.
 

Vukodav

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You do realize a battalion is much smaller than a regiment or brigade yes? If so I'm not sure I follow your logic in the reply to what i wrote.

That divisional sized partisan units making a show and occupying territory and fighting battles on any relevant scale was pretty uncommon throughout the entire war is not something anyone made up (it did happen but so did a lot of other things like B-24s attacking Tokyo from an aircraft carrier). The fact that this is portrayed in HOI3 but not in HOI4 is about a relevant discussion on realism as the lack of battalion sized units or individual aircraft production in HOI3. Battalion and Brigade combat action was a key piece in WW2 but the scale is insignificant in a grand-strategy title and so are multiple uprisings of a couple of thousand guerrillas for the exact same reasons. There's simply no mechanics available to handle it so it's abstracted just as a lot of other things. It was tested in HOI3 and it didn't work out without becoming whack-a-mole for the players and AI and so I fully understand PDS decision not to include it in the first iteration.

I would love to see smaller scale engagements if the mechanics could support them and if it doesn't create micromanagement hell for players. It would for example make Weserübung and the fighting in Norway both more interesting and operationally relevant on a realistic perspective as well as many other engagements but if resistance movements and small scale engagements are abstracted for core-game playability at release I'm fine with it.

I have not said battalions, I said regiments. Battalions I mentioned as a basis of organization as Royalist resistance in Yugoslavia took that from pre war specialized guerrilla formations for the basis of its organization. Yet battalions never fought by themselves - they were too small. Regiments did. Most of the time with a few other regiments (constituting a joint command as a division), rarely if ever a single regiment. Yet in HOI4 you have that option - "division" that has only two regiments. I do not know if one is also doable but two regiments yes. We have seen it in the last WWW.

So what is the problem in having a division comprising of a few militia regiments that was the case in Yugoslavia and Soviet Union?

As I said, HoI mechanics worked like a charm! And before you jump on it, let me explain.

First, you had static modifiers - revolt risk. That made an impact on your IC and resources generation from a conquered province and added to the supply cost transfer - all of those things are represented in HoI4 with its partisan mechanics. And I have absolutely no problem with that. It is as it should be.

Second, you had covert operations. And THAT is your target driven sabotages of infrastructure and strategic resources. Blowing up of Norsk Hydro and so on.

Third, you had underground cells. Those provided intel about the enemy and could be destroyed.

Forth and last, active resistance. When you think you have it prepared you could launch the revolt (for what ever reason) and free the territory. Just like it was in reality.

Of those 4 things, we have now 1.5 with underground cells integrated in general partisan mechanics.

Now, where is the problem with that system? Firstly, you had additional partisans out of your control - those black formations that did not fight. You just had to attack them and they would disappear. That was that wack-a-mole problem, not the AI/player controlled partisan system.

And on top of that, AI controlled partisans knew to periodically pop up in key times (say, in Poland a few weeks after the start of the invasion of USSR) and that was to some extent a wack-a-mole too. But that is the problem of the AI programming, not the system itself. Yes, AI used it in a bad way, but just because AI is stupid it does not mean you have to dump the whole system out of the window. Marine and Paratrooper landings were also something that AI could not do right but you do not see that being dumped, do you? No, they FIXED the AI.

Instead of fixing the AI to use partisan mechanics better, they dumped it.

I have no problem with something that happened only once or twice not being represented in the game. Like Doolittle Raid. But partisan warfare I am talking about here was not just some thing that happened once or twice, nor was it "ragtag band". It was highly organized force lead by the best officers. And NOT because someone decided to gather up after the defeat but because it was a National Military Doctrine long before the war started. Both Soviets and Yugoslav prepared special units, gear, doctrines for that. It was not spontaneous thing at all. And it was a relevant thing throughout the war.

Say, what if it was not decided to give Yugoslavia to communist after the war? Royalist resistance was to make beachheads in Adriatic so in 1943 Allies would land there, not Italy. Allied landings would be much easier and most of the Eastern Europe would not fall to communism. This, even in game terms, has some value. Tell me, how are you gonna fight the active resistance without that system?

What is a player to do when his country gets overrun?

Free territories partisans held were actually pretty big and lasted longer than some countries. And free territory means a territory (province) held by your forces, without the enemy being there. How is that represented by an enemy garrison standing there lowering revolt?

I was not saying that current system is BAD, I am saying it LACKS a few things that previous games had. A few important things. Not important if you play with 4-5 big nations, important if you play with any of the other 100. And to make it all even more stupid, you can bet your ass that partisan mechanics WILL BE IMPLEMENTED as a DLC or expansion. Now, I had no problem with that in HOI3 because HOI2 did not have it. So they made it for HOI3, the game grew, they learned a few things... there is not a single excuse for it not to be included in a core HOI4. Except making more money. Again, no problem here (they do not make it because they do not have better things to do - they make it for money - a perfectly legitimate thing anyone would do), just do not justify it by other things that make no sense.
 
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Praetori

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Instead of fixing the AI to use partisan mechanics better, they dumped it.
It seems like they did but there's been no DD on that system yet. We don't know if there'll be uprisings or what future expansions will bring.

The main problem with the granularity of smaller forces are that the entire system is built around grand-strategy and rather large provinces for playability. It's already almost unrealistic with the divisional granularity as just a few brigades can occupy major metropolitan areas like Moscow, London or New York. Adding forces representing even smaller forces or merged resistance units that can pop-up anywhere would probably be a bad idea.

Increasing the granularity, smaller force compositions and number of provinces would make a Grand Strategy Game with operational scale elements into a Operational Scale Tactical game with Grand Strategy demanding gameplay. A true niche that I doubt would find many customers without being perfectly developed and executed (all others have failed and/or the games truly suxx).
 
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Porkman

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No I'm not. YOU are the one comparing them and claiming they both belong on the map where they can fight each-other as equals.

If you agree with me that there is no way to compare them and that the partisans have indeed no chance in a straight up fight... Then why on earth do you want them on the map to begin with???

The only result of having the partisan "divisions" on the map is that they are forced to go into a straight up fight with army divisions where they will inevitably quickly lose achieving nothing except annoying the players having to micromanage divisions to chase them around all the time. ( Similar to how HoI2 and HoI3 worked ).

If only passive effects and attrition are used to model partisans they won't be so easy to defeat, and if scaled correctly it means that you still need to put a good deal of men to keep them under control and not reduce the value of the occupied provinces down to nothing for you.

Did you ever read the thread I did on how occupations should work?

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-cost-of-occupation.850870/#post-19177677
 
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Alex_brunius

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Where on Earth have I said equal in fighting power?! We were talking only about the size and organization of such units. In HoI3 militia divisions could do little against enemy infantry with heavy equipment - but you had them none the less.

As I said, if THAT is your logic, we might as well remove infantry divisions because when they encounter a full armored division they tend to get obliterated as well. Just like militia divisions break up when they encounter a strong infantry division.

Not really. HoI3 Infantry divisions can hold out and win against HoI3 Armor too if armor attack in bad terrain. Done it several times even in multiplayer against competitive players. Same in HoI2.

But there is no terrain or modifiers that can get so bad that a HoI3 Infantry division won't slaughter a HoI3 partisan militia brigade...

Why do you want to have useless units on the map? What does it add to your experience and fun except boring whack-a-mole gameplay and extra micromanagement?

The only effect of on map partisans in HoI3 literally was exploit bugs in the supply system and ruin the supplies of the enemy... A single cavalry unfit for frontline defense without upgrades could easily mopp up an entire HoI3 partisan uprising, just takes alot of time and it's not fun either since the outcome is well known for all involved.
 
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Vukodav

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It seems like they did but there's been no DD on that system yet. We don't know if there'll be uprisings or what future expansions will bring.

The main problem with the granularity of smaller forces are that the entire system is built around grand-strategy and rather large provinces for playability. It's already almost unrealistic with the divisional granularity as just a few brigades can occupy major metropolitan areas like Moscow, London or New York. Adding forces representing even smaller forces or merged resistance units that can pop-up anywhere would probably be a bad idea.

Increasing the granularity, smaller force compositions and number of provinces would make a Grand Strategy Game with operational scale elements into a Operational Scale Tactical game with Grand Strategy demanding gameplay. A true niche that I doubt would find many customers without being perfectly developed and executed (all others have failed and/or the games truly suxx).

You keep repeating that over and over, yet we have seen units with only two regiments in HoI4.

then you know you're not debating with someone who is arguing in good faith.

And when someone bases his entire view of the war based on highly controversial and isolated events, that is considered a good and historical argument?

cites the incorrect finish-date for the initial German drive through the Baltics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Estonia_during_World_War_II

I do not know what globe you use, on mine Estonia is in the Baltic as well and it was not occupied until September.

evidence from Soviet officials that blocking detachments actually killed people

Yes, when only 1.5% of units stopped by Blocking Detachments got sentenced to death in a extermination war I do not tend to fixate on that much. I tend to pay focus on other 96.1% that Blocking Detachments returned to their units. Not on 1.5% shot or 2.4% that were sent to penal battalions. But you do fixate on 1.5% and judge by that. That is some strong blindness my friend.

And it has nothing to do with where you live but your mindset. From focusing on the least important to actually making things up so that you could downgrade something... I do not know if anything should be added here. You have shown how objective and history savvy you are.
 
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FOARP

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I was not saying that current system is BAD, I am saying it LACKS a few things that previous games had. A few important things. Not important if you play with 4-5 big nations, important if you play with any of the other 100. And to make it all even more stupid, you can bet your ass that partisan mechanics WILL BE IMPLEMENTED as a DLC or expansion. Now, I had no problem with that in HOI3 because HOI2 did not have it. So they made it for HOI3, the game grew, they learned a few things... there is not a single excuse for it not to be included in a core HOI4.

This simply isn't true - there's the excuse that the way it was implemented in HOI3 was dissatisfactory and they want to do a full and proper implementation that avoids the well-known problems of the HOI3 implementation (multiple uprisings in the same province within the course of a year or so, province-by-province uprisings etc. creating endless whack-a-mole). It seems likely that whatever they do implement (if they do implement partisan uprisings with on-map units) will be state-based, not province-based, and likely much more abstracted, and will take years to prepare an uprising.
 
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Vukodav

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multiple uprisings in the same province within the course of a year or so, province-by-province uprisings

Yet that was the case. In Soviet Union uprisings were in Belarus marsh land and forest provinces throughout the war. In Yugoslavia they were in Hercegovina provinces every year for the duration of the war.

It seems likely that whatever they do implement (if they do implement partisan uprisings with on-map units) will be state-based, not province-based, and likely much more abstracted, and will take years to prepare an uprising.

Oh, so NOW we get to the part when, from stupid and ahistorical, on-screen partisan units are OK thing, but they just require more time? You know, you get that by increasing the time required for underground cell build. And actual state wide preparation before the actual war for partisan warfare that some countries did and that I talked about?

Why do you want to have useless units on the map? What does it add to your experience and fun except boring whack-a-mole gameplay?

Just explained a few post back. With those "useless" units prepared Allied landing and freed France.

This conversation is starting to circle. People reading a first sentence, clicking disagree and repeating things already discussed. I am wasting my time.

In the end, we all know that the partisan system will be added as a DLC or more likely an expansion. And then I will see you people defend it with the same passion you are now attacking it.
 
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Alex_brunius

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you can bet your ass that partisan mechanics WILL BE IMPLEMENTED as a DLC or expansion.
In the end, we all know that the partisan system will be added as a DLC or more likely an expansion.

Can you provide a source to this? I doubt we will ever see active partisans on the map ever in HoI4 like in HoI3 or HoI2.

When the devs say the following why do you think they will flip 180 degrees around suddenly just because that is what you ( and pretty much no one else ) want?

The main goal of modeling local resistance in HOI4 is to remove whack-a-mole of rebels running around and to model the strategic problems with occupying large chunks of enemy territory.

If removing these running around units from the map is the MAIN GOAL, you have to provide some pretty credible sources to claim they will add it back undoing their work so far to remove it.
 
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FOARP

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And when someone bases his entire view of the war based on highly controversial and isolated events, that is considered a good and historical argument?

If I'd done that you might have a point. Since I didn't, you don't

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Estonia_during_World_War_II

I do not know what globe you use, on mine Estonia is in the Baltic as well and it was not occupied until September.

I did not say occupy the whole Baltics (for the record, the Germans did not occupy the entirety of the Netherlands before their surrender either, which, remember, was the point of comparison here), I said defeat the Soviet in the army and complete their sweep through the north, and that was complete by the 9th of July, 1941.

Yes, when only 1.5% of units stopped by Blocking Detachments got sentenced to death in a extermination war I do not tend to fixate on that much.

Ah. I see. They only killed tens of thousands of people and therefore your original statement that the killings did not happen is perfectly valid.

But you do fixate on 1.5% and judge by that.

Dude, it was you who brought this topic up in the first place by insisting that it never happened, banging on about how people in the west were brain-washed by Enemy At The Gate (a film I saw once more than ten years ago, long after I read Beevor's Stalingrad which recites the actual factual existence of blocking detachments) and Company of Heroes (a game I've literally never played nor even seen played).

And it has nothing to do with where you live but your mindset.

And here we return back to the beginning: "because Western, therefore I ignore your opinions and the evidence they are based on".

Oh, so NOW we get to the part when, from stupid and ahistorical, on-screen partisan units are OK thing, but they just require more time? You know, you get that by increasing the time required for underground cell build. And actual state wide preparation before the actual war for partisan warfare that some countries did and that I talked about?

Where did I actually say that I thought that on-map partisans should never appear? I think that you're referring to something that someone else said.

Yet that was the case. In Soviet Union uprisings were in Belarus marsh land and forest provinces throughout the war. In Yugoslavia they were in Hercegovina provinces every year for the duration of the war.

It certainly wasn't the case that they rose up continuously, were wiped out to a man, and then rose up again - but this was the HOI3 model.
 
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Whoa, whoa, whoa...

We are going very far off topic and getting into dangerous territory with forbidden topics. I want everyone to take a deep breath, and then let the discussion of partisans compared to divisions or front line troops go.

Let's just focus on game mechanics and take lengthy discussions of OOBs related to partisans to the history forum. And no more discussion of blocking detachments for the time being (since they probably won't be in the game anyway).
 

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Does resistance ever go down to where you don't have to manage it/place troops on the ground?
 

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Does resistance ever go down to where you don't have to manage it/place troops on the ground?
When you occupy the land, resistance will always grow, but will be limited by a couple things, most notably, your occupation policies. When you ANNEX it though, BAM, there is magically no resistance for some reason.
 

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When you occupy the land, resistance will always grow, but will be limited by a couple things, most notably, your occupation policies. When you ANNEX it though, BAM, there is magically no resistance for some reason.
Could you please point me to where is the switch/setting for occupation policies?
 

Wraith11B

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Could you please point me to where is the switch/setting for occupation policies?

Open the main country screen, button is on the bottom.