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Praetori

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And now I dare you to repeat again what you said about rag tag band running around. The communist resistance had by the war end 800.000 troops.

You did chose to present the highest numbers available and from the very end of 1944 when half of Yugoslavia was already liberated by the Red Army. And in the same post you criticised Alex for using readily available figures. Priceless my friend.

Being versed in the military history of the Balkans I find it pretty far fetched to claim that there were partisan units operating at divisional strength under any time period until very late in the war (basically with the Red Army already at the gates of Germany proper). It's well known from post-war studies that the claimed numbers in guerilla and partisan units rarely even comes close to the actual available frontline manpower they could wield. The reasons for that are multiple and outside of the scope of the forum but you're welcome to PM me and I can point you in the right direction in regard to research and literature.

Not to in any way diminish the sacrifices made by various partisan groups in the Balkans but they fought as guerillas (and effectively so proven by the problems the occupation forces faced) in smaller groups (rarely touching even regimental size) and not on anything even resembling divisional combat scale (much like the martyr "brigades" in Palestine NOT being actual brigades in more than name) and various factions also spent considerable effort combating each other.

Now a lot of that changed once the Red Army started rolling into the Balkans but one should not exaggerate the situation before that since that actually diminishes the real sacrifice those men and women did for many years under occupation by the fascists.
That's just my opinion in any case.
 
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Vukodav

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You did chose to present the highest numbers available and from the very end of 1944 when half of Yugoslavia was already liberated by the Red Army. And in the same post you criticised Alex for using readily available figures. Priceless my friend.

Being versed in the military history of the Balkans I find it pretty far fetched to claim that there were partisan units operating at divisional strength under any time period until very late in the war (basically with the Red Army already at the gates of Germany proper). It's well known from post-war studies that the claimed numbers in guerilla and partisan units rarely even comes close to the actual available frontline manpower they could wield. The reasons for that are multiple and outside of the scope of the forum but you're welcome to PM me and I can point you in the right direction in regard to research and literature.

Not to in any way diminish the sacrifices made by various partisan groups in the Balkans but they fought as guerillas (and effectively so proven by the problems the occupation forces faced) in smaller groups (rarely touching even regimental size) and not on anything even resembling divisional combat scale (much like the martyr "brigades" in Palestine NOT being actual brigades in more than name) and various factions also spent considerable effort combating each other.

Now a lot of that changed once the Red Army started rolling into the Balkans but one should not exaggerate the situation before that since that actually diminishes the real sacrifice those men and women did for many years under occupation by the fascists.
That's just my opinion in any case.

Except that I used numbers BEFORE the arrival of Red Army - exactly because of that argument. Info shown was from 1941-1944 (until the liberation of Belgrade). After that, no, I just pointed out that after the arrival of the Red Army corps were further organized into armies and conscription jumped up. JVuO was at its height in 1943 and had divisional organization while communist resistance had in 1941 80.000 fighters (not counting non combat personnel) and 150.000 by 1942.

Your claim that they never fought in large formations until Red Army came is rendered void due to info in German High Command documents who point out large frontal battles with Partisans and JVuO where more than 130.000 German units alone had to take part.

The fact that there were THREE free territories (before 1944) without occupational forces point out it was not a simple guerrilla warfare that is represented in a game but rather, in game terms, should be represented by units and conquered territory.

You may have your opinion, but it is not based on facts, sorry.

And do not worry, I did not think that you try to diminish anything - you cannot. There were two resistance movements, first organized resistance in Europe (even though war has been raging for two years now) and first free territories. Soviets supplied and organized their partisans from the top of the state administration - it was not just some band of saboteurs.

But there were no specially trained formations in the west like they were in the east. For some reason, you think that it was just people who rose up. No, in Yugoslavia there were specially trained battalions that were to form the core of partisan movements - the best soldiers and officers were chosen. They wore special uniforms, special weapons, just for them, used special tactics made for them by compiling experience of Balkan warfare for the last two centuries. During the war, those formations formed up and trained additional 10 full divisions. Operation of enveloping and liberating Sarajevo in 1943 could not be done by some saboteurs or regiments.

I do not doubt that in your literature is says something like "bunch of saboteurs" or as one guy said "a ragtag band of partisans". Top down organized army lead by generals and colonels of the Royal Army? I suggest you throw those books into the fire and warm yourself up. Just as I do not use Russian or Chinese books to study French or USA history, you might try to actually use books and sources made by the people who live where those things have taken place. And also German and Italian sources who had to deal with those things. But sure, you can quote some British book, I do not mind.

The fact is that Royalist resistance alone had more than 70.000 fighters by 1943, supplied by Allies, lead by the best officer cadre Kingdom of Yugoslavia had, were formed into divisional sized units and gave one hell of a headache to the occupying force. Leader got USA Legion of Merit for his services. That is history. As far as gameplay is concerned, new division creation allows you to actually build those units in the size they were. We have seen "divisions" formed with 3 regiments, yet partisan divisions that consisted of 4-7 regiments do not deserve to be shown on the map? Yup, bias is strong. But that is to be expected - after Company of Heroes 2 I am not the least bit surprised about the historical revisionism that comes from certain places.
 
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Vidkjaer

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Well, that's an odd choice. We'll see, I suppose.
Military police is a support unit. In the WWW Daniel video had a division with a MP support and 2 cavalry battalions. Totalling 20 in suppression I think it was, with the cavalry battalion adding 5 each. Whether a MP unit gives 20 suppression or doubles the battalions suppression I don't know.
 

Gort11

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Dudes on horses have traditionally been used to crush riots, so a high suppression makes a certain amount of sense for them.
 

kviiri

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Dudes on horses have traditionally been used to crush riots, so a high suppression makes a certain amount of sense for them.

Not to mention they can access remote safehouses easier than foot infantry, make less noise doing it than a car and convey a sense of proud overlordship that's been associated with chevaliers since the Middle Ages.
 

Praetori

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Except that I used numbers BEFORE the arrival of Red Army - exactly because of that argument.
No you didn't. Your listing on the forces is uniformly a selection of the highest claimed available manpower from late 1944 which is not really what you were referring to later in the post.

Your claim that they never fought in large formations until Red Army came is rendered void due to info in German High Command documents who point out large frontal battles with Partisans and JVuO where more than 130.000 German units alone had to take part.
How many Axis forces that participated in the operations in Yugoslavia is not in any way a representation of Yugoslav Partisan, Chetnik or Royalist "divisions". Yes the Axis spent considerable manpower in various operations in the Balkans. No that doesn't say there were multiple full fledged Yugoslav divisions and Corps running around.
The fact that there were THREE free territories (before 1944) without occupational forces point out it was not a simple guerrilla warfare that is represented in a game but rather, in game terms, should be represented by units and conquered territory.
And those were all fought for in something that could be compared to the uprising mechanic in HOI3, with the same result every time. The actual Yugoslav forces in the most major battles that resulted was along the lines of 2.000-20.000 fighters which pretty much constitutes to a single or double uprising ala HOI3, not the independent 20 divisions you claim.

For some reason, you think that it was just people who rose up. No, in Yugoslavia there were specially trained battalions that were to form the core of partisan movements - the best soldiers and officers were chosen.
Where did I write that? Resistance movements are not portrayed as peasant Joe saying "enough is enough" and jumping the gun. Quite the contrary previous HOI titles, and especially HOI3, had mechanics for this where you invested in underground resistance movements and once strong enough these could be used for either sabotage, espionage or actual large scale uprisings claiming territory.
This proved to be micro intensive whack-a-mole and was not considered good gameplay-mechanics by most.

Let's be realistic here. The Polish, Yugoslav, French, Norwegian, Czech, Dutch, Belgian, Danish an other resistance movements were brave men and women but their efforts had been utterly futile in the grand scheme of things if Allied and Soviet forces had not been able to eventually push the Axis forces out. Actions like the Battle of Vercors, The Warszaw uprising or the Limsko-drinska operacija (in response to Kügelblitz) were brave but disastrous events highlighting the bad things that happened when guerrillas and resistance movements tried to operate and fight as large formations in WW2.

While it was present in HOI3 it seems it's not in HOI4 or at least not handled that way. What do you do with such a mechanic was removed?
 
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Noctoras

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Thanks a lot. I feared for something on an annoyane scale of eu IV disturbance to vic 2 horror...

Do troops or military police only slow or halt the resistance progression or are there effective ways of reducing it? If not, why should I bother with Provinces at 100%, these would basically be lost now, wouldn't they?

I think there should be a way to permanently reduce it as well with time. It's not like the Bavarians are still resisting Germany and the productivity of Catalonia exceeds productivity of the rest of Spain albeit there are no occupation forces quelling resistance. I', not sure Scotland is currently loosing productivity over having been occupied by England in the past either.

Of course, this game has a very limited timeframe, yet there should be ways for an at least partial coring of provinces as well. Yes, it would be part of an alternate history, but that's what games are about.

And I truly hope there will be a DLC or whatever to take the game to like 1990 again, as Darkest Hour did for Hoi2 - with coring of provinces and more.
 

Noctoras

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But what about colonial possesions? Will you still get british Partisans in egypt and Brunei?

Actually, if you are up for the accurate side oif things, you would have to include a chance for indigenious revolts against the colonial powers, i.e. people of Cameroon revolting against France or whoever holds the colony.
 

kviiri

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I think there should be a way to permanently reduce it as well with time. It's not like the Bavarians are still resisting Germany and the productivity of Catalonia exceeds productivity of the rest of Spain albeit there are no occupation forces quelling resistance. I', not sure Scotland is currently loosing productivity over having been occupied by England in the past either.

Those examples are hardly indicative of what happens in HoI 4, since all of those unions were forged through means other than conquest.
 

Noctoras

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Well, not the worst system that is in the game, but could be better.

Partisan warfare in the East and South Europe was a big deal. Really a BIG deal.

True, any in other areas it hardly even mattered. Actually this is a system I'd favor anyway, a random revolt risk for conquered provinces so you might see some conquered provinces almost acting like core provinces and these should be core-able, if the game continues after WW2, for instance till 1990. Then you should have land strips with a high partisan activity. How this could be implemented I don't know, but it would give the game some extra flavour.
 

Noctoras

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Those examples are hardly indicative of what happens in HoI 4, since all of those unions were forged through means other than conquest.

True for Bavaria, not true for Scotland, but there are a lot of other examples as well. I'm just somewhat sceptic against the "one size fits all" approach. In fact, Poland "cored" Germany provinces after WWII by expelling German population and moving polish population in for instance. This would also be a historic model.

China has used a different approach and moved Han Chinese to Uighur regions to "core" them.

Chile sized Bolivias access to the sea in the late 19th century. The provice was quickly made a core province as well - it is a natural part of Chilenian economic life.

Approaches are different, but I think there could be options to influence history on a long term perspective, not only running after partisans year after year ...
 

kviiri

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True for Bavaria, not true for Scotland

What do you mean, "not true for Scotland"? Scotland and England have been united since James VI of Scotland inherited the English crown, resulting in a personal union that was eventually reorganized into a single unified kingdom. Plain politics, no military occupation.
 
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Noctoras

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What do you mean, "not true for Scotland"? Scotland and England have been united since James VI of Scotland inherited the English crown, resulting in a personal union that was eventually reorganized into a single unified kingdom. Plain politics, no military occupation.

By this I mean that there have been two "wars of independence" scotland vs. England before the 14th century. Thus I agree it is a bad example anyway, since it dates way back. So let's forget about that and take more recent examples like

China (Xinyang, Tibet) => coring by economy and resettling
Poland (former Eastern Germany) => coring by expulsion
Chile (Bolivian sea access) => coring without any specific policies
Russia (Karelia and Sachlin) => coring with "assisted repatriation"
United States (Texas)

and many other examples. In some places coring was an easy process without resistance, in other places it took drastic measures. However, I would appreciate an opportunity for long term coring especially if the game will be expanded later on. For WWII itself, I agreem coring is not a necessity in 10 years. However, varying levels of resistance are.
 

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130.000 soldiers is 2 divisions for you? Sorry, never heard of 65.000 strong division. But that is just me.

I never wrote soldiers. I wrote men serving the army.

Most of the men serving the army are not riflemen but occupied with vital support roles that are needed to be able to fight effectively as a division. In the US Army for example you had 6-7 men serving the army for each riflemen at the frontline. In Germany it was closer to 2-3 for each rifleman. For a Partisan it was closer to 0, which means even if it could reach theoretical division strength on paper if you just count the riflemen, it would not really be able to fight effectively together like the Germans or Americans. And they didn't operate together either because that would make them easy to crush, partisans had to fight more dispersed in smaller units.

This means a German division has maybe around 10k riflemen and 20-30k behind the lines supporting it in various ways. The other 20-30k are not in the actual division but in various other smaller independent units, which as I understand was frequently used for anti partisan and garrisioning roles due to the need to spread out.


And your numbers for how many total German divisions that was in the Balkans in 44 isn't really relevant because a large number of them were preparing to defend it against either potential allied invasions or against the inevitable Soviet advance, or were needed simply to police the population ( but not fight partisan "divisions" directly ).
 
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Vukodav

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I never wrote soldiers. I wrote men serving the army.

Most of the men serving the army are not riflemen but occupied with vital support roles that are needed to be able to fight effectively as a division. In the US Army for example you had 6-7 men serving the army for each riflemen at the frontline. In Germany it was closer to 2-3 for each rifleman. For a Partisan it was closer to 0, which means even if it could reach theoretical division strength on paper if you just count the riflemen, it would not really be able to fight effectively together like the Germans or Americans. And they didn't operate together either because that would make them easy to crush, partisans had to fight more dispersed in smaller units.

This means a German division has maybe around 10k riflemen and 20-30k behind the lines supporting it in various ways. The other 20-30k are not in the actual division but in various other smaller independent units, which as I understand was frequently used for anti partisan and garrisioning roles due to the need to spread out.


And your numbers for how many total German divisions that was in the Balkans in 44 isn't really relevant because a large number of them were preparing to defend it against either potential allied invasions or against the inevitable Soviet advance, or were needed simply to police the population ( but not fight partisan "divisions" directly ).

Oh this is rich! You actually compare the battle effectiveness of a full regular infantry division to a partisan division?! This has gone beyond bias, this just became dumb. Please, let us remove infantry divisions because armored ones were stronger. That follows the same logic you have demonstrated in regards with standard infantry division and a partisan division.

No one, anywhere, ever, have said that partisan division is as strong as a full regular infantry division. All I did is prove that there were divisional sized formations of partisans that formed up free territories in Soviet Union and Yugoslavia during the war and because of that we need a better partisan mechanics that is not just some stupid modifier. And you combat that by saying "Yeah but those divisions were not as effective or as strong as regular infantry division". No kidding Sherlock?!

Have you and Praetori actually read the comment you would have seen that only a few units were mentioned with their 1944 status. Royalist resistance was for instance not even mentioned in 1944. Wanna know why? Because they were mostly crushed by then. Their peak was in 1943. Most of the things I mentioned were from 1941, 1942 and 1943.

But first you all said that there were no partisan divisions. When proven otherwise then it was "Oh, some of them were late war divisions so it does not count" which is dumb in and out of itself. And you actually ignored three years before the arrival of the Red Army in OCTOBER 1944! Why? Because it does not fit your view, that is why.

Someone claimed that those divisions would require officers and that partisans did not have them. Another lie that I debunked by point out that not only thousands of officers actually WERE in those formations, there were also schools for new ones lead by generals and colonels of Yugoslav Royal Army - many of them ACTUAL TEACHERS at Military Academy in Belgrade before the war! All that by 1943.

Lies on top of lies that I have debunked. And then you cling to a first few lines of text where I mentioned a few divisional strength statistics from the second half of 1944 (June-December, with Red Army arriving in October).

I am done debating this. When you find some reasonable arguments you can PM me.

This proved to be micro intensive whack-a-mole and was not considered good gameplay-mechanics by most.

And yet it was realistic. But we have left realism island with HoI4 a long time ago, haven't we?

The actual Yugoslav forces in the most major battles that resulted was along the lines of 2.000-20.000 fighters which pretty much constitutes to a single or double uprising ala HOI3, not the independent 20 divisions you claim.

Oh, imagine that! A divisional sized unit fought in the war. And the very notion of the independent division is that is not tied to other divisions. Yes, most battles were fought with up to 20.000 partisans... because not all divisions were in one place. Who would have thought that is is a possibility, right? You had 2-3 divisions in one place, 2-3 in another... of course it could not be a 20 divisions against 20 divisions front line fight - no one ever said it was. But there were 20 partisan divisions in 1943 on communist side and further 11 on Royalist side, also in 1943. Did they operate shoulder to shoulder? No. But they did form a battle formations that are representable in the game and there is no real argument one could make for them not being included.

It has historical reasons - not my problem you do not know the facts.
It has gameplay reasons - player could prepare his country for it (just like Soviet Union and Yugoslavia did) and give a player something to do even if he loses the war.
It has gameplay possibility - we have seen that it is possible to make divisions even with only TWO regiments while partisan formations were bigger than that. So several regiments of militia regiments and you have got your partisan division that is not as strong as USA division that had full power of USA industry behind it. Hell, regular Yugoslav divisions before the war were not as strong as USA divisions and did not have the amounts of equipment that USA divisions had - let us remove them as well. At what point does all this become just pointless holding to a straw if ignorance and malice?

The only reason not to include them is, well casual players and that it requires a bit more work. And no problem - say "we want casual pass time" and "it is too much work" and it is a no brainer, I wount argue with that at all. Just do not hide behind lies and stupid arguments like "Yeah but those divisions were not as effective as German or USA infantry divisions, so there is no point in having them".
 
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Alex_brunius

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Oh this is rich! You actually compare the battle effectiveness of a full regular infantry division to a partisan division?!

No I'm not. YOU are the one comparing them and claiming they both belong on the map where they can fight each-other as equals.

If you agree with me that there is no way to compare them and that the partisans have indeed no chance in a straight up fight... Then why on earth do you want them on the map to begin with???

The only result of having the partisan "divisions" on the map is that they are forced to go into a straight up fight with army divisions where they will inevitably quickly lose achieving nothing except annoying the players having to micromanage divisions to chase them around all the time. ( Similar to how HoI2 and HoI3 worked ).


If only passive effects and attrition are used to model partisans they won't be so easy to defeat, and if scaled correctly it means that you still need to put a good deal of men to keep them under control and not reduce the value of the occupied provinces down to nothing for you.
 
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Vukodav

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No I'm not. YOU are the one comparing them and claiming they both belong on the map where they can fight each-other as equals.

Where on Earth have I said equal in fighting power?! We were talking only about the size and organization of such units. In HoI3 militia divisions could do little against enemy infantry with heavy equipment - but you had them none the less.

As I said, if THAT is your logic, we might as well remove infantry divisions because when they encounter a full armored division they tend to get obliterated as well. Just like militia divisions break up when they encounter a strong infantry division.

Let me paint you a picture here. On top of those passive effects that ALL games had until now btw, preparing a partisan uprising like in HoI3 could disrupt a whole offensive, because an uprising could be timed. When not in active fight, underground resistance movement was spreading. And in case enemy draws his forces to another front, you could liberate yourself and call the allies.

That was the actual plan in Yugoslavia you know? To prepare, spread the cells, and when Germany becomes weak, strike, take the Adriatic ports and hold on to them until Allies could land. That is why in 1943 large battles were fought. They stopped when Allies decided that 1943 landing will not take place in the Balkans but in Italy.

Most recenty I had a play with France and Germany moved most of its divisions to Eastern Front. My partisan network that grew for two years sprung up and took two ports in southern France. Then Allies sent regular troops and together with my partisans liberated France.

That is something you will not be able to do with this mechanics. Not this part with liberation, nor disrupting enemy when you want to.
 
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Praetori

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And yet it was realistic. But we have left realism island with HoI4 a long time ago, haven't we?
A bit too early to say as the game hasn't even been released yet. We didn't have battalion sized divisional components in HOI3 nor did we have representation of individual aircraft being produced and used either. But I wouldn't make a claim that HOI3 left the realism-island for those reasons. Nor will I claim that the lack of not having resistance uprisings represented by divisional units has done the same.

Oh, imagine that! A divisional sized unit fought in the war. And the very notion of the independent division is that is not tied to other divisions.
That the major uprisings meant a concentration of forces in number that was on a divisional scale is one thing and I don't think anyone has disputed that. To claim that it was the equivalent of 20 divisions "operating" throughout the war is something completely different (outright silly even). I mean the various nations involved in the war had hundreds of thousands and even million strong auxiliary forces from militia and police brigades to landwehr and national guard units not represented in any HOI title to date. I'm not entirely convinced that such granularity would be good in a Grand Strategy title as their overall effect on the outcome of the war was pretty minimal in the end.

Yes, most battles were fought with up to 20.000 partisans... because not all divisions were in one place.
Most? There you go again. Less than a handful during the entire war is "most"? Revisionism indeed.

You should take a step back, take a deep breath and stop worrying about revisionalist agendas. Currently you're just coming across as less than polite or cool headed.
It's a game, and one from the better Series of games at that when it comes to being non-biased.
 
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