The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.
And now I dare you to repeat again what you said about rag tag band running around. The communist resistance had by the war end 800.000 troops.
You did chose to present the highest numbers available and from the very end of 1944 when half of Yugoslavia was already liberated by the Red Army. And in the same post you criticised Alex for using readily available figures. Priceless my friend.
Being versed in the military history of the Balkans I find it pretty far fetched to claim that there were partisan units operating at divisional strength under any time period until very late in the war (basically with the Red Army already at the gates of Germany proper). It's well known from post-war studies that the claimed numbers in guerilla and partisan units rarely even comes close to the actual available frontline manpower they could wield. The reasons for that are multiple and outside of the scope of the forum but you're welcome to PM me and I can point you in the right direction in regard to research and literature.
Not to in any way diminish the sacrifices made by various partisan groups in the Balkans but they fought as guerillas (and effectively so proven by the problems the occupation forces faced) in smaller groups (rarely touching even regimental size) and not on anything even resembling divisional combat scale (much like the martyr "brigades" in Palestine NOT being actual brigades in more than name) and various factions also spent considerable effort combating each other.
Now a lot of that changed once the Red Army started rolling into the Balkans but one should not exaggerate the situation before that since that actually diminishes the real sacrifice those men and women did for many years under occupation by the fascists.
That's just my opinion in any case.
Military police is a support unit. In the WWW Daniel video had a division with a MP support and 2 cavalry battalions. Totalling 20 in suppression I think it was, with the cavalry battalion adding 5 each. Whether a MP unit gives 20 suppression or doubles the battalions suppression I don't know.Well, that's an odd choice. We'll see, I suppose.
Dudes on horses have traditionally been used to crush riots, so a high suppression makes a certain amount of sense for them.
No you didn't. Your listing on the forces is uniformly a selection of the highest claimed available manpower from late 1944 which is not really what you were referring to later in the post.Except that I used numbers BEFORE the arrival of Red Army - exactly because of that argument.
How many Axis forces that participated in the operations in Yugoslavia is not in any way a representation of Yugoslav Partisan, Chetnik or Royalist "divisions". Yes the Axis spent considerable manpower in various operations in the Balkans. No that doesn't say there were multiple full fledged Yugoslav divisions and Corps running around.Your claim that they never fought in large formations until Red Army came is rendered void due to info in German High Command documents who point out large frontal battles with Partisans and JVuO where more than 130.000 German units alone had to take part.
And those were all fought for in something that could be compared to the uprising mechanic in HOI3, with the same result every time. The actual Yugoslav forces in the most major battles that resulted was along the lines of 2.000-20.000 fighters which pretty much constitutes to a single or double uprising ala HOI3, not the independent 20 divisions you claim.The fact that there were THREE free territories (before 1944) without occupational forces point out it was not a simple guerrilla warfare that is represented in a game but rather, in game terms, should be represented by units and conquered territory.
Where did I write that? Resistance movements are not portrayed as peasant Joe saying "enough is enough" and jumping the gun. Quite the contrary previous HOI titles, and especially HOI3, had mechanics for this where you invested in underground resistance movements and once strong enough these could be used for either sabotage, espionage or actual large scale uprisings claiming territory.For some reason, you think that it was just people who rose up. No, in Yugoslavia there were specially trained battalions that were to form the core of partisan movements - the best soldiers and officers were chosen.
Thanks a lot. I feared for something on an annoyane scale of eu IV disturbance to vic 2 horror...
Do troops or military police only slow or halt the resistance progression or are there effective ways of reducing it? If not, why should I bother with Provinces at 100%, these would basically be lost now, wouldn't they?
But what about colonial possesions? Will you still get british Partisans in egypt and Brunei?
I think there should be a way to permanently reduce it as well with time. It's not like the Bavarians are still resisting Germany and the productivity of Catalonia exceeds productivity of the rest of Spain albeit there are no occupation forces quelling resistance. I', not sure Scotland is currently loosing productivity over having been occupied by England in the past either.
Well, not the worst system that is in the game, but could be better.
Partisan warfare in the East and South Europe was a big deal. Really a BIG deal.
Those examples are hardly indicative of what happens in HoI 4, since all of those unions were forged through means other than conquest.
True for Bavaria, not true for Scotland
What do you mean, "not true for Scotland"? Scotland and England have been united since James VI of Scotland inherited the English crown, resulting in a personal union that was eventually reorganized into a single unified kingdom. Plain politics, no military occupation.
130.000 soldiers is 2 divisions for you? Sorry, never heard of 65.000 strong division. But that is just me.
I never wrote soldiers. I wrote men serving the army.
Most of the men serving the army are not riflemen but occupied with vital support roles that are needed to be able to fight effectively as a division. In the US Army for example you had 6-7 men serving the army for each riflemen at the frontline. In Germany it was closer to 2-3 for each rifleman. For a Partisan it was closer to 0, which means even if it could reach theoretical division strength on paper if you just count the riflemen, it would not really be able to fight effectively together like the Germans or Americans. And they didn't operate together either because that would make them easy to crush, partisans had to fight more dispersed in smaller units.
This means a German division has maybe around 10k riflemen and 20-30k behind the lines supporting it in various ways. The other 20-30k are not in the actual division but in various other smaller independent units, which as I understand was frequently used for anti partisan and garrisioning roles due to the need to spread out.
And your numbers for how many total German divisions that was in the Balkans in 44 isn't really relevant because a large number of them were preparing to defend it against either potential allied invasions or against the inevitable Soviet advance, or were needed simply to police the population ( but not fight partisan "divisions" directly ).
This proved to be micro intensive whack-a-mole and was not considered good gameplay-mechanics by most.
The actual Yugoslav forces in the most major battles that resulted was along the lines of 2.000-20.000 fighters which pretty much constitutes to a single or double uprising ala HOI3, not the independent 20 divisions you claim.
Oh this is rich! You actually compare the battle effectiveness of a full regular infantry division to a partisan division?!
No I'm not. YOU are the one comparing them and claiming they both belong on the map where they can fight each-other as equals.
A bit too early to say as the game hasn't even been released yet. We didn't have battalion sized divisional components in HOI3 nor did we have representation of individual aircraft being produced and used either. But I wouldn't make a claim that HOI3 left the realism-island for those reasons. Nor will I claim that the lack of not having resistance uprisings represented by divisional units has done the same.And yet it was realistic. But we have left realism island with HoI4 a long time ago, haven't we?
That the major uprisings meant a concentration of forces in number that was on a divisional scale is one thing and I don't think anyone has disputed that. To claim that it was the equivalent of 20 divisions "operating" throughout the war is something completely different (outright silly even). I mean the various nations involved in the war had hundreds of thousands and even million strong auxiliary forces from militia and police brigades to landwehr and national guard units not represented in any HOI title to date. I'm not entirely convinced that such granularity would be good in a Grand Strategy title as their overall effect on the outcome of the war was pretty minimal in the end.Oh, imagine that! A divisional sized unit fought in the war. And the very notion of the independent division is that is not tied to other divisions.
Most? There you go again. Less than a handful during the entire war is "most"? Revisionism indeed.Yes, most battles were fought with up to 20.000 partisans... because not all divisions were in one place.