Hearts of Iron IV - 41st Development Diary - 22nd of January 2016

[safe-keeper]

1.) Why can't both things be true? Why can't it be true that the game is obviously dumbed down/worse in some regions (e.g. OOB, air combat, ship combat, no ability to bomb a certain province, no fuel etc.) and some areas are way more complex/better (e.g. division designer, production, frozen rivers, mud etc.)

That's... exactly what I wrote in my post.

 

[Acaios]

Ummmm..... not to be to pedantic but isn't all game play ultimately press button to achieve something? I think you might be confusing the number of clicks needed to do something with depth in this case. Am I saying that all the systems couldn't be made deeper or better (in my OWN opinion)? No.

it's not about the number of click...
it's about the fact the game tells you what to do instead of letting you solve your problem.
Try aurora 4x for half an hour and understand what i mean.

 

[Zaku]

Try aurora 4x for half an hour and understand what i mean.

I think that's a bad example, because Aurora has terribe UI. That's the reason I couldn't really get into that game because of the clunky controls, and the poor interface. You need to click a million times to achive even the most basic thing like setting up a mining colony somewhere, or designing and building a ship and all it's parts.
I don't think that makes the game better, quite the opposite imo. Rather then being immersed in the game, I felt like I'm doing a chore the whole time I played. The game would be one of the best 4xs ever if the interface was clearer and easier to use, and some things would be automated, Right now it's more like a job then an enjoyable game imo.

 

[Sloeberjong]

it's not about the number of click...
it's about the fact the game tells you what to do instead of letting you solve your problem.
Try aurora 4x for half an hour and understand what i mean.

Except that the game doesn't tell you what to do, you tell the game what to do. Pretty obvious in the WWW streams...Just like that manual control is a very reasonable way to order your units, for the micromanagers here.

Please tell me where in the streams the game tells anybody what to do. And messages about completed research or free IC don't count. Nobody is told what NF or research to pick or what to build. Nobody is told whom to attack or where. You set some divs to an attackvector and go. Then if you like you can go full manual if you prefer.

I really see this as the best of both worlds.

 

[safe-keeper]

As another user pointed out:

In HOI3 you basically give instructions one unit at a time. "You go there, you go there, you go there", or "you report to this corps HQ. You too. You too". It's just tedious and clunky.

In HOI4, you still have control of your units -- even the click-by-click direct control you have in HOI3 -- but you can give more realistic and orders like "you eight divisions will spread out along this river". You still have the same degree of control over your men, but you also have a fleshed-out AI/UI system that gives you far more control over automated units, and eases your tasks when manually directing your men.

In other words, it's like writing a Word document and being able to hit Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V instead of writing a whole passage of text twice.

So dumbed down .

5.) "Muh feelz" is NOT evidence. Pointing out that some areas of this game are indeed "dumbed down" isn't invalidated by your "feelz". I hate these "I personally feel"-arguments, because they are the ultimate non-arguments. "I personally feel that vaccines don't work for me." Great, you're still wrong and there is evidence to demonstrate that vaccines work. Just because you choose to ignore this evidence or just don't care about illnesses in general, does not mean that you are in the right. "Muh feelz" is the freaking opposite of an argument. Learn to use reason. It really pisses me off, if people are more about "muh feelz" than about reality, reason and evidence.

So you're fine with me just disregarding the rest of post because it's all about how you feel about this ? 'kay thx bai ^_^

 

[Faulty]

this, this and this again.
they just needed to fix hoi3 problems, not to create a game where cpu tells you what to do.

What problems did HoI3 have, and how do you think they should have been fixed?

 

[Acaios]

Except that the game doesn't tell you what to do, you tell the game what to do. Pretty obvious in the WWW streams...Just like that manual control is a very reasonable way to order your units, for the micromanagers here.

Please tell me where in the streams the game tells anybody what to do. And messages about completed research or free IC don't count. Nobody is told what NF or research to pick or what to build. Nobody is told whom to attack or where. You set some divs to an attackvector and go. Then if you like you can go full manual if you prefer.

I really see this as the best of both worlds.

I think that's a bad example, because Aurora has terribe UI. That's the reason I couldn't really get into that game because of the clunky controls, and the poor interface. You need to click a million times to achive even the most basic thing like setting up a mining colony somewhere, or designing and building a ship and all it's parts.
I don't think that makes the game better, quite the opposite imo. Rather then being immersed in the game, I felt like I'm doing a chore the whole time I played. The game would be one of the best 4xs ever if the interface was clearer and easier to use, and some things would be automated, Right now it's more like a job then an enjoyable game imo.

... again: it's not about number of clicks. In aurora you can do almost everything you want. When facing a problem in aurora, there are multiple solutions you can figure out, BUT no one will tell you if you're doing good or bad until you see the effect.
Hoi4 is not like that. Hoi4 gives you an overwhelming amount of informations about everything; informations that a person can't know in real life.
"Supply problems? build this and it will be solved"
"need to fight in swamp? send this unit and you'll have your bonus"
"problem with enemy bombers? just add some planes to the airfield"
but the worst of all is:
"do you want a strong navy? no problem, just press the "navy focus" button!. And what about an alliance with that state? then press the "befriend state" button!"

the game is playing for you. I can't really understand how can you have fun with something like this.

Hoi3 was not like this. The game concept was really better than this.
if you had supply problems, you had to figure out what to do to solve it. You had to plan carefully not only the supply network, but also your unit disposition on the front.
if you had to fight in swamps, there were not an "anti-swamp equipment, press here to have a bonus in swamps". you had to build up your armies in the correct way and many options were possible. ofc you had to know and understand every kind of unit you had at your disposal.
If you had problems with bombers, you had to use your interceptors in a smarter way, not just add more units and let the pc use them.

hoi3 was a where a about strategy and planning.

hoi4 is a game where a player logs in and half an or after opens a topic: "omg look my commie USA xaxaxa"

 

[Zaku]

... again: it's not about number of clicks. In aurora you can do almost everything you want. When facing a problem in aurora, there are multiple solutions you can figure out, BUT no one will tell you if you're doing good or bad until you see the effect.

Aurora is not telling you how to solve a problem because it's UI sucks, but you still have to solve the said problem by complying with the rules of the game.

Hoi4 is not like that. Hoi4 gives you an overwhelming amount of informations about everything; informations that a person can't know in real life.
"Supply problems? build this and it will be solved"
"need to fight in swamp? send this unit and you'll have your bonus"
"problem with enemy bombers? just add some planes to the airfield"

You complain because HOI4 has informative tooltips which gives you every information to make an educated decision.

"do you want a strong navy? no problem, just press the "navy focus" button!. And what about an alliance with that state? then press the "befriend state" button!"

I don't understand your point. How else are you going to tell the game that you want to do something other then pressing a button? You press buttons in every game. Same can be said about aurora 4x: You want a strong navy? Press this button to design a missile launcher. Then press this button to design a missile against small craft. Then press this button to design a missile against large craft. Then press this button to design an engine for the missles(and no, im not joking this is how it works in that game)... and it goes on and on, but in the end all you do is press buttons to solve problems.

the game is playing for you. I can't really understand how can you have fun with something like this.

Well it's fine that you don't like a game, but then why are you here? I don't like Aurora 4x for example, but you don't see me going to their forums and saying things like you: "I don't understand how can anyone have fun playing with an excel spreadsheet."

Hoi3 was not like this. The game concept was really better than this.

while hoi3 was a fine game, the concept was worse imo.

if you had supply problems, you had to figure out what to do to solve it.

Here is the problem: you couldn't solve most of the supply problems, even after 3 expansions. It was broken.

. You had to plan carefully not only the supply network, but also your unit disposition on the front.

yeah, and then after several hours of planning, you watched it all go to shit when the "superb" supply system collapsed because of no reason.

if you had to fight in swamps, there were not an "anti-swamp equipment, press here to have a bonus in swamps". you had to build up your armies in the correct way and many options were possible. ofc you had to know and understand every kind of unit you had at your disposal.

Really? Marines were the best units fightning in swamps in hoi3, especially with an engineer brigade.
Also, I don't understand what anti swamp equipment you talk about because there aren't any. Marines will use infantry equipment, and engineers will use support equipment.

If you had problems with bombers, you had to use your interceptors in a smarter way, not just add more units and let the pc use them.

Except we automated our whole air fleet 99% of the time. You still needed to add more units to win, because 1 interceptor wing always lost vs 3 interceptor wings(same tech level) no matter how smart you used them. In hoi4 a smaller air force will still have a fighting chance against a large one, because that's how they designed it.

hoi3 was a where a about strategy and planning.
hoi4 is a game where a player logs in and half an or after opens a topic: "omg look my commie USA xaxaxa"

Yeah, because we didn't have ahistorical AARs like that in HOI3 at all...

 

[Faulty]

... again: it's not about number of clicks. In aurora you can do almost everything you want. When facing a problem in aurora, there are multiple solutions you can figure out, BUT no one will tell you if you're doing good or bad until you see the effect.

That's not true. For example, Aurora tells you how many crew members can fit into a crew module. For a truly deep experience it should just tell you the volume of the module, and let you work out the optimal space needed per crewman through trial and error.

 

[HeilLoki]

So you're fine with me just disregarding the rest of post because it's all about how you feel about this ? 'kay thx bai ^_^

Yes, you can disregard my opinion all day long. I don't care. You sure didn't read/understand my post, if you think, it's about "muh feelz".

No matter how me and you "feel" about this game. It still doesn't change the fact that HOI4 is dumbed down in many areas. You simply cannot deny that. Here's one example: It is simply more realistic and more complex to have fuel and supplies, instead of having them not in the game (well, it's EUIV-system now). The supply system hasn't much to do with actual supplies. It's basically a "weight" system to prevent players to stack all their units in one place. Having to produce & transport supplies to troops is fundamentally different to supplies that arbitrarily spawn out of the ground, because reasons. You can't argue about taste, but the second option is indeed way less complex, less realistic than the first option aka "dumbed down". There is no debate about taste, but about substance. You may like less substance more, but it is still less substance.

I already mentioned some areas, where HOI4 is obviously less complex (aka dumbed down). That also does not mean that this game isn't more complex in other areas.

 

[safe-keeper]

@Acaios
You do kinda have a point. I feel EU4 is going a little overboard regarding how transparent it is, and how "mechanical" your solutions are. For example when you hit a button to boost stability.
I like mechanics like having to choose between increasing autonomy, harsh treatment, and other options, but you also have magic buttons going "Solve problem instantly for 100 points".

HOI4 does have mechanics that kinda go in the same direction, and I don't really know how happy I am about that. I wouldn't say it's dumbed down as much as that it's too transparent and reliable. There's nothing wrong with a ruler deciding to boost the stability of their country, but knowing that the button gives you exactly +1 stability, that's just gamey. Rebels receiving harsh treatment? That should have a number of different possible effects, not just "oh look, we've had some of our people get arrested and tortured, guess we have to be exactly 30% more docile now".

Yes, you can disregard my opinion all day long. I don't care. You sure didn't read/understand my post, if you think, it's about "muh feelz".

Neither are mine, of course. But no, I didn't read much of your last posts because I understand we're not getting aywhere here, so I'll just let this discussion end here, I think.

 

[HeilLoki]

So, 2 people just disagreed with reality... Lovely

 

[safe-keeper]

@Zaku wrote his post while I wrote mine, I think, and I agree with him. I haven't played Aurora, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say you won't know the consequences of your actions, but as Zaku says, that sounds like poor UI/documentation more than good gameplay. Unless you're talking about random/unpredictable outcomes.

 

[Zaku]

@Zaku wrote his post while I wrote mine, I think, and I agree with him. I haven't played Aurora, so I'm not sure what you mean when you say you won't know the consequences of your actions, but as Zaku says, that sounds like poor UI/documentation more than good gameplay. Unless you're talking about random/unpredictable outcomes.

The game is not bad at all, my only problem with it is the very poor UI, and the tedious chores you need to do to make any progress. I think it would be a much better game if some of the features were simplified, and a proper, informative UI were designed for it. But this is the thing: I'm not the one designing the game, and the creators have somethin else in mind then my preferences. I can live with that, and all I'm saying is that anyone who dislikes the design choices of HOI4 should do the same. People are different and love different things, but that doesn't mean one is inferior/superior to the other. That doesn't mean we should force our preferences on a design choice we disagree with.

This is what some people on this forum can't comprehend.

 

[safe-keeper]

Yeah, it seems to have that "Dwarf Fortress complex" where the UI gets in the way of gameplay.

 

[grandad1982]

... again: it's not about number of clicks. In aurora you can do almost everything you want. When facing a problem in aurora, there are multiple solutions you can figure out, BUT no one will tell you if you're doing good or bad until you see the effect.
Hoi4 is not like that. Hoi4 gives you an overwhelming amount of informations about everything; informations that a person can't know in real life.
"Supply problems? build this and it will be solved"
"need to fight in swamp? send this unit and you'll have your bonus"
"problem with enemy bombers? just add some planes to the airfield"
but the worst of all is:
"do you want a strong navy? no problem, just press the "navy focus" button!. And what about an alliance with that state? then press the "befriend state" button!"

the game is playing for you. I can't really understand how can you have fun with something like this.

Hoi3 was not like this. The game concept was really better than this.
if you had supply problems, you had to figure out what to do to solve it. You had to plan carefully not only the supply network, but also your unit disposition on the front.
if you had to fight in swamps, there were not an "anti-swamp equipment, press here to have a bonus in swamps". you had to build up your armies in the correct way and many options were possible. ofc you had to know and understand every kind of unit you had at your disposal.
If you had problems with bombers, you had to use your interceptors in a smarter way, not just add more units and let the pc use them.

hoi3 was a where a about strategy and planning.

hoi4 is a game where a player logs in and half an or after opens a topic: "omg look my commie USA xaxaxa"

Well.... Bye then!

 

[Gort11]

Yeah, that post sounded like a whole bunch of the same thing said twice, the first time in a disapproving tone and the second time in an approving tone.

"In the game I hate you just build the right units and win easily while laughing about it on the INTERNET, whereas in the game I love you have to carefully consider your options - making careful plans involving multiple factors - before building the right units and winning."

 

[HeilLoki]

Neither are mine, of course. But no, I didn't read much of your last posts because I understand we're not getting aywhere here, so I'll just let this discussion end here, I think.

Just tell me one thing: Why would you disagree with a fact? Why and how do you think is HOI4 supply system MORE complex than HOI3 supply system? Please tell me. I'm lost and baffled. You are disagreeing with reality. You know that, right? I have no words. Seriously.

Edit: I really like to understand, what the hell is going on in someones brain, who is disagreeing with a comment that accuratly describes reality. Really. I do not get it. For the love of god, please explain it to me. Where do you think is HOI4 more complex than HOI3 supply system?

 

[Sloeberjong]

Just tell me one thing: Why would you disagree with a fact? Why and how do you think is HOI4 supply system MORE complex than HOI3 supply system? Please tell me. I'm lost and baffled. You are disagreeing with reality. You know that, right? I have no words. Seriously.

Edit: I really like to understand, what the hell is going on in someones brain, who is disagreeing with a comment that accuratly describes reality. Really. I do not get it. For the love of god, please explain it to me. Where do you think is HOI4 more complex than HOI3 supply system?

Because what you perceive as fact is actually an opinion. It's also funny because you point out something as good that is (f)actually the most broken part of HoI 3, ie. the supply system. It's a horrible incomprehensible mess that sometimes breaks down your army for no apparent reason. You can't set supply routes and you can't set supply dumps and you have no influence on where to set priorities. Then every supply for you country ever ONLY comes from your capital....no that makes sense.

Now, if you took the time to watch the WWW's you can see that yes, you have supply areas that supply units (it's actually an abstraction for having sort of supply dumps and terrain effecting your supply line). It may not be the most realistic, but as an abstraction it works better than "everything comes from your capital". Then there is also the option to set your supply line, because you DO need to get supplies to your units. Johan's and the US's units starved because they couldn't get supplies to them because they didn't capture harbours.

Is it perfect? No, something with fuel would be much apreciated. Is it realistic? Maybe, as an abstraction, actual practice in game would have to prove it. Is it clearer and better than HoI 3? Hell yes! You actually know what to do to fix things and what is needed to get a decent supply line. Is it dumbed down? I don't think so, you need to know what to do to prevent your units from starving and for a big front and difficult terrain it won't be very easy all the time I bet. Is it different? Yes, obviously, but different isn't necesarily bad or dumbed down, it's simply different.

Then there's 2 things you can do...either accept it, give it a shot and play with it, or reject it and not buy the new game. Stop being entitled, the devs have set a certain goal for the game and they don't tailor it to everybody's wishes because it's impossible to please everybody that way. You obviously don't like what's coming so either use constructive and factual critisism or find another place to whine because "the game is dumbed down" is an opinion and not exactly very constructive.

 

[BeauNiddle]

Just tell me one thing: Why would you disagree with a fact? Why and how do you think is HOI4 supply system MORE complex than HOI3 supply system? Please tell me. I'm lost and baffled. You are disagreeing with reality. You know that, right? I have no words. Seriously.

Edit: I really like to understand, what the hell is going on in someones brain, who is disagreeing with a comment that accuratly describes reality. Really. I do not get it. For the love of god, please explain it to me. Where do you think is HOI4 more complex than HOI3 supply system?

Because you're artificially narrowing the game down to one small thing just so you can gloat.

The whole point of HOI4 is all the features are interconnected. HOI3 had some complex/obtuse systems but they were all standalone and you couldn't really affect them. Supply was a compex/disastrous system that the only input you had was mass producing the same supplies for all units, just in differing amounts.

In HOI4:

You have too many units in an area so your stuff breaks down more often
So you need to allocate more factories to build stuff
So you need to take a production hit on changing your current lines to different products
Which need more resources
So you trade civilian factories for more resources
Which reduces the amount of repairs you can do to your bombed factories
which means you need to find alternate sources of materials
So you divert your tanks from Moscow to capture the oil fields round Stalingrad
So you have too many units in an area - return to step 1.


Yes you are completely correct the flow diagram in HOI3 for supplies was a lot prettier. No that doesn't mean HOI3 was a more complex game - if anything it was a lot simpler.