Hearts of Iron IV - 40th Development Diary - 15th of January 2016
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A pity. While the time period is relatively limited, countries have changed not just one but several regions' infrastructure and production capabilities within a comparable time. A straightjacket which no amount of Paradox condescension can explain away.
This would just bump up all regions' potential outputs, wouldn't it?
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The areas shaded on the map are "states" in HOI4 terms, each of which is made up of multiple provinces. I believe there are larger "regions" for air-warfare and other purposes.
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You're looking for Vicky 2, HoI 4 just isn't that sort of game. Maybe Vicky 3 ( if and when that happens ) will become more of a mix between the two but HoI4 is rightfully focused on the clash of civilizations not the building of it. Vicky 2 is exactly the sort of game you want for building things up with a sophisticated economic model and in general it's a pretty good game, I've been playing it some to take the edge off waiting for HoI4. Though I will warn you that Vicky 2 is probably one of the hardest paradox titles to learn, if you get it do yourself a favor and read up on the POPs system before taking the plunge.
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Siberia shouldn't be wasteland, I guess wasteland is for inhabitable region, so could be a rural (2 IC) or pastoral (1 IC) region.
Maybe there could be regional exception, for example event could raise max IC in Siberia and lower at Rome (they work just in tertiary sector, they wouldn't go to work in the industries you build for them).
Exactly the question I thought of. Soviet evacuation of industrial, scientific and cultural assets was one of the most important strategic warfare decisions and operations in WW2.
Also, IMO population should be able to change - evacuations and dispersal of population were very real. IMO it will be wrong if (for example) after re-taking Norway from GER you find the antebellum pool of workers and draftees undiminished. Even more so for Eastern Europe and Asia where occupations were way harsher.
Ostarbeiters alone numbered something like 3-4 millions. Equally great numbers moved in the aftermath of the war (1945-1952, period within the scope of the game) - both people returning to their homes and people moving because of changed borders (like Poles moving from former eastern Polish provinces taken by USSR or Germans moving from Schlesien). Etc.,etc.
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Frankly Siberia, a name used to describe a geographical region of 13 million square kilometers, larger then any country in the world save Russia itself. Shouldn't be any one thing, there should be a number of ways to describe the varying woodlands, tundra, mountains, etc that fill out that geographical area. Places like the Omsk to Irkusk area could probably make a case for developed rural or dispersed urban where the lower Yenisei's tundra is certainly suitable to be called wasteland. I'd expect that much of the regions along the Trans-Siberian would manage at least pastoral though with more then a few areas being a fair bit better while areas away from the rail lines and rivers could certainly end up being wasteland.
this should be fairly illustrative of the variance.
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This is pretty much how I see infrastructure working and it would seem the correct way to go. Population/materials/technology should decide the production abilities while infrastructure/technology will effect how efficient they operate. If you look at late war Germany with dispersed industries which could survive allied bombings because they could never destroy all the factories or most of them for long periods of time but could be slowed to a crawl when railways or other forms of transport were destroyed. If you can't get the engines from the factory that produces them to the factory that conducts final production you still don't have a plane. Infrastructure should have a huge impact to dispersed industries to the point where it may be more efficient to bomb the infrastructure than the factories. The opposite decision in bombing choices would make sense in countries/regions that focus all of their manufacturing in a compact area. It would easier to destroy the production line altogether but if they bombed infrastructure instead it would still effect efficiency but would be less critical than to dispersed industries.
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We obviously don't know for sure yet, but I'd bet we'd be able to mod in ways to both use infrastructure to affect the factory cap, and to improve the region type. From an earlier DD, you can mod in different factory or building types. I suspect it would be possible to mod in a 'development' type of building which can be improved (and, like infrastructure, doesn't take up factory slots) and have an event trigger for a state when the level of that building crosses a threshold, that changes the type of that region to the next higher. We'd need to see exactly what we could play with, but I'd expect there'd be a way around it. The economic side of things doesn't require much in the way of AI (I'd expect some fairly simple weights as to what buildings are built where), and we've generally got a fair bit of freedom over modding in new buildings, so I'm sure there's a number of different ways around this (but if I've got this wrong, by all means set me straight
).HoI4 is a game about global conflict first, and a bit short to do much in the way of deep economic development, so I think it's sensible design that the economic side is simplified (as it has been in all HoIs) - and as long as there's scope to mod it in (which I'm pretty sure there will be) then people who want a more specifically economic game can still have one
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I couldn't disagree more. I've been pre-emptively working to mod this game for a month now and in the back of my mind one question was always going to be "holy moly its going to be hard to re-balance the way the economy and industry works." This change greatly improves modability and makes it easier to balance once you start changing things.
This is a giant leap in the right direction and I am thrilled.
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i would say a region having a million people like the amazon is hardly inhabitable.
Amazonas is huge, its 1.3 million km² without counting para state, but we also forget that like Egipty population follows the nile people in the amazonas follows the amazonas river and concentrate on few citys. (Mostly Manaus and Belém at the time).
So while the area is 98% inabitable its production potential is not 0. (While i agree it should be small, as infrastructure in the area need to be increased to give industry there a shot).
The area was very important in the war as main producer of rubber.
This make me question how a country like Canada is going to have the IC it deserves. Or it will just break the rule and get some IC because its Canada. Would be nice the rule working for everyone and not having special cases.
My point is the same i defended on my other posts. Its too hard to paradox to actually check every little area in the world and get a precise number of the IC at the time. So giving a room for improvement is a nice way of giving us, the players, a way to "fix" any problem and also go a little a-historical. (Just a little, while this is a simulator its not made to be a perfect one as we want other results and what ifs).
If i want to go crazy and put all Argentina industry in the south Antartic region i should be able to do so, not all of course, but at least some. Crazy? Totally! possible in WW2 time? Sure, The russians did this while taking bullets so im sure the argentinians can do this in peace if they want.
The time of WW2 (And before it), was a time of massive migrations and crazy development rates.
When i said siberia i was of course talking about the part closest to europe that got the industry in WW 2. Most likely a region with 1 to 2 million population. While we can debate the status of the area its clear its a very little developed area unable to get all the IC the russians put there in the war.
So or we get a mechanic to improve the IC of a area to justify this or we just get a "event magic" like it was said above.
I would like to avoid event magics. With just a few buffs to guide the player, the player himself can do the job and get rewarded for it. (Or fail, also a fun option, no joy if it the challenge is 0).
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I find it weird that Gotland can't host factories, I believe about 40 000 people lived there in the 40s and has a higher population density compared to the northern counties which I am sure will be able to host factories.
I mean, even my tiny town of 2000 inhabitants in northern Sweden has multiple factories, with one of them making pretty complex stuff (forestry machines).
I mean, even my tiny town of 2000 inhabitants in northern Sweden has multiple factories, with one of them making pretty complex stuff (forestry machines).
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I don't think Canada is a great example as the population in Canada is by mostly concentrated around the St. Lawrence river. I don't have exact stats for the time period, but today its roughly 2/3 of the population of Canada, and in 1936 it would be a far higher percentage as western Canada was comparatively less densely populated. This means that the developers giving Canada respectable industrial potential is completely fine as long as its mostly concentrated on the St. Lawrence.
Well, Mannheim is not part of the Moselland Region, since it is on the right (eastern) side of the Rhine. Ludwigshafen would be part of it, according the HOI4 Map. But, Moselland as a Region does not fit for cities like Mainz, or Ludwigshafen, either. Trier and Koblenz would fit. While Mainz belonged at that time to Hesse and Ludwigshafen to the Palatinate Region. Though I can understand that the HOI4 team reduced the number of Regions, but then Westmark would fit better than Moselland, since that would also reflect the used language in the 3rd Reich epoch.
Well, I'm not sure if this is the right assumption. As an example Germany, the production of Tanks, Planes, Artillery and the like was still on a high output until the end of war. Just the lack fuel made them useless. Same for Japan, the submarine warfare sopped the flow of resources to Japan and so the production were stopped. The bomb war was not stopping the industrial production significantly. It was opening new fronts and was more meant to break the moral of the enemy population.
We obviously don't know for sure yet, but I'd bet we'd be able to mod in ways to both use infrastructure to affect the factory cap, and to improve the region type. From an earlier DD, you can mod in different factory or building types. I suspect it would be possible to mod in a 'development' type of building which can be improved (and, like infrastructure, doesn't take up factor slots) and have an event trigger for a state when the level of that building crosses a threshold, that changes the type of that region to the next higher. We'd need to see exactly what we could play with, but I'd expect there'd be a way around it. The economic side of things doesn't require much in the way of AI (I'd expect some fairly simple weights as to what buildings are built where), and we've generally got a fair bit of freedom over modding in new buildings, so I'm sure there's a number of different ways around this (but if I've got this wrong, by all means set me straight
HoI4 is a game about global conflict first, and a bit short to do much in the way of deep economic development, so I think it's sensible design that the economic side is simplified (as it has been in all HoIs) - and as long as there's scope to mod it in (which I'm pretty sure there will be) then people who want a more specifically economic game can still have one
Thank you for your post, because it got me thinking here... Not so sure on the possibility of having a building that doesn't take up building slots... (even if it's additional effect is to grant an extra building slot, there is a finite number of spaces graphically for buildings) And the feature of improving an building would be great, but for it to be possible to mod it in, it would have to be a feature in the main game - I see no indication of that planned.
But let's not despair, let's try to find solutions:
So let's say one have 21 different region types according to a 0-20 range of possible buildings. Then initial region types are distributed according to population and infra level (calculated manually and distributed in files by the modder) Then there are events where improving infra will trigger improve your building cap in that region, by changing it's region type. Then mod in ingame a cap dependent on population, so you can't improve 0 population, 0 infra islands to 10 building, 100 infra regions with 0 population. That's great - if doable, then this is good enough for me to continue. There are some considerations here which I think will lead to it needing at least 200 events (each combo of population and needed infra as trigger with each combo of new region type as effect) But it's doable IF region type can be changed via event.
Now I need to think how to make it as little intrusive as possible, as intuitive as possible to the player what the effects on the cap from improving infra actually is, how to make the AI do efficient, economizing decisions on what to improve, and not make the system too taxing on the computer. (Not being ironic here, I will actually think this through and design something like it)
I share your sentiment about balancing being key; but all initial industry is placed, and is the same numbers in both cases. So the balancing is entirely about the pace of expanding industry, and the finite level it can get to over time. (If you let the game run until it's 1980, then all regions in the world will be maxed out)
If all countries expand too fast, then you increase the cost or time it takes to build industry, the opposite with the opposite situation. Now, if you want to differentiate rates that certain groups of countries grow you can use modifiers, either via types and skills of ministers available, national focuses or techs. I don't see at this stage any key differences that would make balancing any easier in the new system, with one exception:
Countries with colonies spamming industry there. (Since some regions have large population with little industry) They can limit it in the new system by only giving colonies bad region-types. But instead of doing that, all it would take is an "overseas" or "occupied" modifier to build industry in non national provinces. They probably already have that for manpower gain calculations.
With regards to the AI, a strategy for a competitive one could be to; 1) only improve infrastructure if there are no slots for buildings available in the whole country, 2) Improve the highest population provinces first, to maximize building caps gained. So no unsolvable problems there in either case.
In the old system you had an additional kind of anti-snowballing effect, whereby a nation that is closer to their true potential will have to spend more of their industry to improve it further, by virtue of also improving infrastructure to improve the caps. It doesn't feel intrusive, yet it's good game design, as it means that someone on top has additional difficulties staying on top.
So, I don't quite understand your enthusiasm for why this is easier to balance... maybe you want to go more into detail about why?
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"The year 1945 started as 1944 had ended, on a downward slide both for the Ju88 production and Nazi Germany. The facilities at Bernburg, Langensalza and other JFM locations were still capable of significant output if raw materials could be delivered and components moved between dispersal locations from one stage of manufacturing to the next. Transportation was the main problem and it would only grow worse day by day as 1945 progressed. From the beginning of the war, until the air attacks began on the transportation system, 95 per cent of movement of raw materials and components by Junkers had been accomplished using the railway. With the collapse of the rain system, trucks were pressed into use, but the shortage of motor fuel imposed severe limitations for this mode of transport. Dispersal only acerbated the problems and the terminal phase for German industry began once the Allies and Russians had invaded the area of Germany defined by its 1939 boundaries." Junkers Ju 88-William Medcalf
Infrastructure effects everything from the movement of fuel, raw resources, components, and even finished products. Absolutely degraded infrastructure should effect efficiency of production and the movement of soldiers/equipment. Even with all the fuel available in the world you would still need to transport it from refineries and shipping raw resources/components by trucks is very inefficient but would still require a road system in working order to move the items. You would still need to move produced finished products from the factories to the front and that requires infrastructure as well since you're not going to drive your new Panther from the factory to the front 300km away or it may need to cross a bridge at some point. Fuel may keep them from training pilots, flying missions, or driving tanks into combat but if the factory is waiting for engines or if finished products can't move to the front because the rail system is destroyed it doesn't matter to begin with. To use you example of Japan ... its shipping infrastructure was destroyed so it couldn't get raw materials to factories so production lines ceased or were delayed. They all tie in together ... production, infrastructure, and raw materials with creating a final product.
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Aye, that's the way
. We don't know exactly what will and won't be moddable, but if we look at what was possible in various mods (BICE, I'm pretty sure it was, had a bunch of unique buildings and buildings with different 'level' caps and what-have you, although my memory's a little hazy, so apologies if I've talked up the wrong mod or scrambled the message), then I can't imagine it won't be at least possible in HoI4, it's just a question of what bits we'll have to play with to do it. I reckon there's a decent chance it might be possible to do something that doesn't require a large matrix of events, but there's a high degree of guesswork involved and we just have to wait and see. Podcat has said it'll be very mod-friendly (much more so than HoI3) and that we'll get a DD on modding as well, so look out for that .
For example the battle of the bulge was lost for the Germans of two reasons. Not the lack of Tanks, but the lack of fuel. There were enough tanks but no fuel. So, the tanks were destroyed by their own crews to prevent that they fall in enemy hands.
Second reason the air superiority of the allied forces. The Germans had still planes, but no fuel to let them start. Shortage of fuel was also the reason why training of new pilots were made with very limited flight training. The young pilots were trained mainly on the ground and had limited flight experience. So, planes were available, but no fuel and bad trained pilots. The bottle neck was the fuel oil.
Since the oil field in Romania felt in Russian hands and the distillation plants (coal to fuel conversion) were bombed by the Americans the fuel production was the mayor problem for the warfare. Trains worked until the end, thought they mainly run during night hours.
Second reason the air superiority of the allied forces. The Germans had still planes, but no fuel to let them start. Shortage of fuel was also the reason why training of new pilots were made with very limited flight training. The young pilots were trained mainly on the ground and had limited flight experience. So, planes were available, but no fuel and bad trained pilots. The bottle neck was the fuel oil.
Since the oil field in Romania felt in Russian hands and the distillation plants (coal to fuel conversion) were bombed by the Americans the fuel production was the mayor problem for the warfare. Trains worked until the end, thought they mainly run during night hours.