Hearts of Iron IV - 37th Development Diary - 11th of December 2015

[Umbaretz]

The Essex (at least in 92, which are the numbers from Conways) had 91 in 1942 - which when you think they pumped out 24 of them (and lost none in action), is massive. That's floating support for over 2000 aircraft, although a number weren't completed until after the war was over.



You probably have to 'pick a spot' a bit more precise than the 1940s if you're looking to take an average - there's no way the average operational air wing capacity (as opposed to how many aircraft you could stuff in the CV, regardless if you could hold the fuel and ammo to operate them) of a 1940s CV would be over 100, but you may be able to pick a time when the Midways were launched/became commissioned, and get yourself an average over 100 then. It's a good deal lower if you include CVLs (which the game does), which didn't hit air wings of 50. The thing to remember that in-game, the "CV" is both a CV and CVL, so its base stats need to be more CVL than CV (or we get a lot of navies with CVs with larger-than-they-should-be air wings). If the game makes its base CV stat on CVs and not CVLs, we effectively get a HoI4 without CVLs at all - if, on the other hand, they make the base model 'CV' a CVL, with the option of using experience to build a full-fledged CV, you can probably get close enough for the devs vision to the range of ships that served, without needing an extra class of ship.

In terms of Taiho, while she could carry around 84 aircraft, she was (apparently, I'm going from Conways All the World's Fighting Ships, 1922-1946, I wasn't there) only able to effectively operate 53 (not dissimilar to the UK carriers, who could carry more aircraft than their aviation fuel load could support). As for the second Lexington carrying 110 aircraft, if that was after her 1950s refit, then it's out of our timeline, and if it was in the 1940s then the Lexington is on the top end of the scale for what the Essex class could manage, and not good as an indicative measure of the 'average' CV of the period.

The Thing is, scrrenshot shown Lexington-class with 30 planes, which should be at least 60 (cause we can't remodel existing ships, can we), also, kinda strange in that regard are cv and cvl being the same class when cve and cvl are much closer. And can be differed by models.

Also, it's easy to tell the about 1940's fleet carriers, especially 1941 model (which we can build by 1942-1944 without rusihing tech). Cause we had 3 nations with them. Zeppelin should be called assault carrier, and wasn't completed. Taiho - 90 hangar, Implacable 80 hangar, Essex - 90-110 hangar.
So the lowest stock carrier of 1941 tech should be no less than 75 planes.

 

[Porkman]

The Essex (at least in 92, which are the numbers from Conways) had 91 in 1942 - which when you think they pumped out 24 of them (and lost none in action), is massive. That's floating support for over 2000 aircraft, although a number weren't completed until after the war was over.



You probably have to 'pick a spot' a bit more precise than the 1940s if you're looking to take an average - there's no way the average operational air wing capacity (as opposed to how many aircraft you could stuff in the CV, regardless if you could hold the fuel and ammo to operate them) of a 1940s CV would be over 100, but you may be able to pick a time when the Midways were launched/became commissioned, and get yourself an average over 100 then. It's a good deal lower if you include CVLs (which the game does), which didn't hit air wings of 50. The thing to remember that in-game, the "CV" is both a CV and CVL, so its base stats need to be more CVL than CV (or we get a lot of navies with CVs with larger-than-they-should-be air wings). If the game makes its base CV stat on CVs and not CVLs, we effectively get a HoI4 without CVLs at all - if, on the other hand, they make the base model 'CV' a CVL, with the option of using experience to build a full-fledged CV, you can probably get close enough for the devs vision to the range of ships that served, without needing an extra class of ship.

In terms of Taiho, while she could carry around 84 aircraft, she was (apparently, I'm going from Conways All the World's Fighting Ships, 1922-1946, I wasn't there) only able to effectively operate 53 (not dissimilar to the UK carriers, who could carry more aircraft than their aviation fuel load could support). As for the second Lexington carrying 110 aircraft, if that was after her 1950s refit, then it's out of our timeline, and if it was in the 1940s then the Lexington is on the top end of the scale for what the Essex class could manage, and not good as an indicative measure of the 'average' CV of the period.

Why are you so cool with this (CV +CVL + CVE) = 1 kind of ship?

It seems like a pointless simplification that leads to some bad kludges like 30 planes on a fleet carrier.

Modelling with variants seems to be a poor backup.

I'd much prefer that CVE/CVL be it's own class that carries about 12 (at tech 0) moving up to 35 (1944) planes to model the Japanese, UK, and American versions. A CV would start carrying 50 planes even in 1936. This would model ships like the Ryujo that was built in 1931 and still carried 48 planes.

 

[Umbaretz]

Why are you so cool with this (CV +CVL + CVE) = 1 kind of ship?

It seems like a pointless simplification that leads to some bad kludges like 30 planes on a fleet carrier.

Modelling with variants seems to be a poor backup.

I'd much prefer that CVE/CVL be it's own class that carries about 12 (at tech 0) moving up to 35 (1944) planes to model the Japanese, UK, and American versions. A CV would start carrying 50 planes even in 1936. This would model ships like the Ryujo that was built in 1931 and still carried 48 planes.

Yup, also fleet carriers and light carriers have very different build times, doubt it can be well modelled with a model.

 

[misterbean]

The Essex (at least in 92, which are the numbers from Conways) had 91 in 1942 - which when you think they pumped out 24 of them (and lost none in action), is massive. That's floating support for over 2000 aircraft, although a number weren't completed until after the war was over.

I was thinking something along those lines. 2,160 planes just for the essex carriers. Add the other carriers, escort carriers, light carriers land-based planes and trying to hit the historical numbers will be a real challenge.

 

[Umbaretz]

I was thinking something along those lines. 2,160 planes just for the essex carriers. Add the other carriers, escort carriers, light carriers land-based planes and trying to hit the historical numbers will be a real challenge.

How about 38 000 Il-2's and 32 000 Me-109's?

 

[Amur_Tiger]

I'm not talking about 1940, i'm talking about 1940ies, as a decade. Also, Taiho is close to that. And one of proposed Shinano wariants had more than Midway.

Well, if we have 3 types of carriers- sure 30 is okay for CVL, not for CVE (I thought there were only two types of carriers).
And you said that - the smallest was 50. 50 is not 30. And after refit Lexington carried 78. Which is nowhere close to 30.
Yorktown, as 30ies-build carrier, had around 90.
Second Lexington, in 1942, had up to 110 planes.

Packed to the gills with smaller aircraft those numbers are perhaps possible, in practice however those weren't realistic numbers. Battle of Coral Sea saw a Lexington and a Yorktown class carry 128 carrier aircraft between them. That puts them at about 64 aircraft each, even assuming that they were 20% under-strength due to being far from home that leaves them at around 76 aircraft each which lines up well with the 77 aircraft each at Midway. Keep in mind that the higher numbers of aircraft on board tend to be very conditional on both smaller aircraft, being able to use a lot of the deck park ( so North Sea operations wouldn't permit this often ). In fact one of the major pressures that saw wartime carriers either pushed away from a role of a fleet carrier or scrapped entirely was the rapid inflation of aircraft size and weight so by the end of the war early war carriers would have already seen pretty dramatic drops in their aircraft capacity.

More specifically on the Lexington and how it fits ( or doesn't fit ) in with a standardized carrier tech is that it was of course converted from a battlecruiser hull which left it an outlier in size compared to purpose-build carriers of the time. Indeed before the 1930s all the larger carriers that could even be called a CV ( vs a CVL ) were conversions of some sort or another. Given the likelihood that the Lexington we're seeing isn't tailored to the specific characteristics of that class IRL and is a relatively generic tech 1 carrier I don't think 30 aircraft is that much of an affront, given the screenshot is from the first game day it's pretty clear that this isn't even 1936 tech.

 

[Umbaretz]

Packed to the gills with smaller aircraft those numbers are perhaps possible, in practice however those weren't realistic numbers. Battle of Coral Sea saw a Lexington and a Yorktown class carry 128 carrier aircraft between them. That puts them at about 64 aircraft each, even assuming that they were 20% under-strength due to being far from home that leaves them at around 76 aircraft each which lines up well with the 77 aircraft each at Midway. Keep in mind that the higher numbers of aircraft on board tend to be very conditional on both smaller aircraft, being able to use a lot of the deck park ( so North Sea operations wouldn't permit this often ). In fact one of the major pressures that saw wartime carriers either pushed away from a role of a fleet carrier or scrapped entirely was the rapid inflation of aircraft size and weight so by the end of the war early war carriers would have already seen pretty dramatic drops in their aircraft capacity.

More specifically on the Lexington and how it fits ( or doesn't fit ) in with a standardized carrier tech is that it was of course converted from a battlecruiser hull which left it an outlier in size compared to purpose-build carriers of the time. Indeed before the 1930s all the larger carriers that could even be called a CV ( vs a CVL ) were conversions of some sort or another. Given the likelihood that the Lexington we're seeing isn't tailored to the specific characteristics of that class IRL and is a relatively generic tech 1 carrier I don't think 30 aircraft is that much of an affront, given the screenshot is from the first game day it's pretty clear that this isn't even 1936 tech.

Second Lexington is Essex-class. Not Lexington-class.
Also, 60 is not 30.

 

[Porkman]

Also, it would be nice if planes had a size/year modifier.

Nothing too large, but 1944 planes tended to be bigger than 1937 ones and carriers could carry less of them.

Basically, if a carrier is built in 36, it shouldn't be able to carry as many 1944 planes as it could 1936 ones.

 

[Amur_Tiger]

Second Lexington is Essex-class. Not Lexington-class.
Also, 60 is not 30.

Why are you talking about the Essex class Lexington when every single screenshot there is 1936?

 

[Umbaretz]

Why are you talking about the Essex class Lexington when every single screenshot there is 1936?

We were talking about average 1940ies fleet carrier.
Essex is not so suitable, cause next ones in Essex-class were better built.
Please read the thread before posting.

Also, it would be nice if planes had a size/year modifier.

Nothing too large, but 1944 planes tended to be bigger than 1937 ones and carriers could carry less of them.

Basically, if a carrier is built in 36, it shouldn't be able to carry as many 1944 planes as it could 1936 ones.

And some planes couldn't land/take off on/from older carriers, for example B7A's, or F7F's.

 

[Porkman]

We were talking about average 1940ies fleet carrier.
Essex is not so suitable, cause next ones in Essex-class were better built.

And some planes couldn't land/take off on/from older carriers, for example B7A's, or F7F's.

Why are you talking about 1940's carriers? There were plenty of pre 1936 carriers that carried more than 30 planes. The Kaga or the Ryujo both carried a lot.

 

[Umbaretz]

Why are you talking about 1940's carriers? There were plenty of pre 1936 carriers that carried more than 30 planes. The Kaga or the Ryujo both carried a lot.

I was saying that average for stock 1941 tech carrier should be no less than 75.

Also, it's easy to tell the about 1940's fleet carriers, especially 1941 model (which we can build by 1942-1944 without rusihing tech). Cause we had 3 nations with them. Zeppelin should be called assault carrier, and wasn't completed. Taiho - 90 hangar, Implacable 80 hangar, Essex - 90-110 hangar.
So the lowest stock carrier of 1941 tech should be no less than 75 planes.

 

[Amur_Tiger]

We were talking about average 1940ies fleet carrier.
Essex is not so suitable, cause next ones in Essex-class were better built.
Please read the thread before posting.



And some planes couldn't land/take off on/from older carriers, for example B7A's, or F7F's.

Given the screenshots are in 1936, there's plenty of talk about the Lexington class if you're going to start talking about the Essex class Lexington because you want to cherry-pick the specific ship that quotes 110 aircraft you're going to have to be more clear about it.

All we have for information right now is about tech 1 carriers and on average if you exclude the conversions 30 aircraft is quite reasonable.

 

[Porkman]

All we have for information right now is about tech 1 carriers and on average if you exclude the conversions 30 aircraft is quite reasonable.

Why is it reasonable to exclude the conversions? The bulk of the carriers in the world until mid war were conversions.

Even if we do exclude conversions, the Soryu was a purpose built carrier launched in 1935 with over 60 aircraft.

 

[Amur_Tiger]

Why is it reasonable to exclude the conversions? The bulk of the carriers in the world until mid war were conversions.

Because they were outliers in displacement from the rest, none of the nations involved showed any inclination to building carriers as large as the battlecruiser conversions but with spare hulls around they decided to make something useful of them. Since we can't actually convert ships ( or refit them ) representing a fresh-built carrier with one of the large conversions ( Lexington for example ) misrepresents what was actually likely to have been built at the time.

 

[Umbaretz]

Because they were outliers in displacement from the rest, none of the nations involved showed any inclination to building carriers as large as the battlecruiser conversions but with spare hulls around they decided to make something useful of them. Since we can't actually convert ships ( or refit them ) representing a fresh-built carrier with one of the large conversions ( Lexington for example ) misrepresents what was actually likely to have been built at the time.

Game start is in 1936, not 1920. So it was already build in that way.

 

[Porkman]

Because they were outliers in displacement from the rest, none of the nations involved showed any inclination to building carriers as large as the battlecruiser conversions but with spare hulls around they decided to make something useful of them. Since we can't actually convert ships ( or refit them ) representing a fresh-built carrier with one of the large conversions ( Lexington for example ) misrepresents what was actually likely to have been built at the time.

The Soryu was built and launched in 1935 as a purpose built carrier and carried 60+ planes.

 

[Amur_Tiger]

The Soryu was built and launched in 1935 as a purpose built carrier and carried 60+ planes.

And the Hermes carried 20 planes, what of it?

 

[Amur_Tiger]

Game start is in 1936, not 1920. So it was already build in that way.

Yeah, but the basic tech makes no distinction between 1920 and 1936 until some research is made.

 

[Porkman]

And the Hermes carried 20 planes, what of it?

The British were to carriers what the Japanese were to tanks.

Nevertheless, the Hermes was built in 1924 and is technically the first purpose built carrier ever laid down.

We are talking about 1936 tech carriers.

With that in mind, the Ark Royal, another purpose built carrier which was started in 1935, carried 60 planes and would be a better example.