Hearts of Iron IV - 33rd Development Diary - Supply

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Might as well. I've been considering doing this for a while, actually, because it's a subject that comes up often and it'd be handy to have this to refer people to. From the top of my head (will probably update this later):

This will be pretty lengthy, and detailed, because it's something I intend to refer to later, and keep working on, so bear with me.

Updated on March 17th 2017.

The game world

Impassable terrain
HOI3: there were provinces you simply couldn't enter because their infrastructure level was below two.
HOI4: now you can enter any province, but some will have such a high attrition rate they are in practice not feasible to traverse.

Rivers
HOI3: the game only models rivers and straits.
HOI4: the game now has two kinds of rivers. Rivers can freeze during winter.


Diplomacy and politics


Coups, civil wars, and intervention
HOI3: civil wars are handled by historical events and decisions. You can stage coups in foreign countries. Intervention in civil wars is handled by events that do nothing but increase relations, or by lend-leasing abstracted "IC".
HOI4: now civil wars are a dynamic feature, which can theoretically break out anywhere. Intervention can take the form of actual supplies, planes, and other equipment that is physically sent to the recipient, which can make a significant difference if two minor countries without tanks of their own are fighting, and one of them can suddenly field T-34s.

Peace conferences
HOI3: come victory, winners enforce war goals, and territory is largelly divided by war goals set before the war, and who is occupying which provinces.
HOI4: now there is a peace conference system in which the victors take turns claiming the spoils of war, with various factors such as war score affecting who can claim what.

Factions and declarations of war
HOI3: there are only three factions, and if you join one, you're stuck in it permanently. Anyone can declare war provided their neutrality is sufficiently low and threat is sufficiently high.
HOI4: anyone can create factions, and what system of government you have now matters far more, thanks to such things as World Tension. Declarations of war require Casus Belli. You can 'defect from' factions if things are starting to go belly-up.

Declarations of war
HOI3: you could declare war if the target's threat was higher than your neutrality.
HOI4: now there's a system that requires you to justify your war, which in turn is restricted by the world tension system and other factors.

Leadership
HOI3: you assigned ministers, but your research and production body was represented by abstracted "leadership", which was spent on espionage, research, diplomacy and so on.
HOI4: you pick ministers as well as what companies and organisations to put in charge of research and production. Political capital (political power) is accumulated and spent to enforce decisions.


Industry

Factory construction
HOI3: you can build factories anywhere, even on tiny islands and in regions where nobody even lives.
HOI4: now you actually need people to work your factories, so the maximum number of factories you can build in a state is tied to its population density, and some areas, such as the aforementioned tiny islands, can't have industry at all.

Types of industry
HOI3: factories produce resources to generate abstracted "industrial capacity" which can be be used to build anything.
HOI4: now you have three types of industry: civilian, military and naval. Factories have to be assigned to build specifc items such as field hospitals, interceptors, infantry equipment, destroyers, and artillery guns.

Production and equipment
HOI3: abstracted "IC" is spent producing abstracted "reinforcements". Practical builds up over time and affects all units of a given type. For example, factories building level four tank divisions still benefit from practical acquired from building level one, two, and three tank divisions.
HOI4: now the game tracks subs, destroyers, aircraft, tanks, trucks and infantry gear packages individually. Divisions don't just regain "strength", but physically receive tanks, infantry gear, and so on. Practical builds up per unit and per production line, so adding factories or switching from building a level one tank to a level two tank will hurt production efficiency, but switching to a different variant or a similar vehicle will hurt production efficiency less. You can research various kinds of new vechiels, such as self-propelled artillery, based on the chassis of "primary" vehicles.

Supply
HOI3: supply is generated in the capital only, and flows outwards to units according to a system that was not easy to manage, and not properly understood by players.
HOI4: now supply is generated by large cities, and the system is more readily understandable.


Military

Experience
HOI3: you have to wage war for your troops to gain experience.
HOI4: now you can have your forces conduct exercises to gain experience, up to a certain level, during peace-time.

Division makeup
HOI3: your smallest building block is the brigade. You can prioritise divisions for upgrades and reinforcements, or deny them upgrades/reinforcements if you're running short.
HOI4: now the smallest building blocks are companies, and you can assign divisions support assets such as signal battalions or field hospitals. You have three levels of supply priority, not two. Divisions can be assigned custom icons.

Division design
HOI3: you can instantly start producing the optimal production templates.
HOI4: now you have to spend strategic experience, accumulated by exercises and warfare, on building or editing division templates, simulating how changes to division makeup was often in response to actual lessons from the battlefield.

Divisions, navy and air force composition
HOI3: you have one kind of each unit -- one type of small tank, one type of fighter, one type of submarine, for example, and upgrades affect all units of this type. That is, you have "Interceptor wing level 1", which upgrades to "Interceptor wing Level 2". Individual units within divisions are abstracted into division upgrades and "strength". A tank division is for all intents and purposes a single unit, with organisation, strength, and various upgrades.
HOI4: every new upgrade is now a different vehicle; in effect, you can't build 100 level one interceptors and then upgrade them to level two interceptors. Units can be further customised by the variant system. Divisions now track individual pieces of equipment, tanks and whatnot within them, so a tank division, instead of just having 10 000 men and "100% strength", will have "10 000 men (with 1000 sets of infantry equipment), 4 KV-1s, 21 T-34s, 30 T-28s, 20 Self-Propelled 88mm AT guns, 22 Self-Propelled AA guns, 60 trucks, a field hospital, and a signal company". Update 17.3: You can even custom-tailor which divisions get which equipment variant, and have, for example, one division get basic Panzer IVs while another gets an up-armoured version.

Planes, submarines and destroyers
HOI3: aircraft, subs and destroyers are abstracted into "wings" and "flotillas" which are, for all intents and purposes, single units.
HOI4: each aircraft, sub and destroyer is now modelled individually, which allows for sub and destroyer flotillas to saturate naval zones more effectively, and aircraft to fight in a more realistic manner. Now, small groups of individual planes will dogfight, rather than just two "air wings".

AI and Battle Planners
HOI3: the AI was very rudimentary and could only be given very simple instructions. The Battle Planner only allowed you to draw on the map.
HOI4: now the battle planner is used to give instructions to the AI, allowing you to give them fairly complex instructions.

Operational warfare
HOI3: you can tell your troops to begin operations on the fly.
HOI4: now you have to give your men time to prepare for offensives, or they will not fight at full efficiency.

Amphibious invasions
HOI3: you could invade anywhere, whenever you wanted, range permitting, as long as you had at least one transport and one unit that could be carried on board.
HOI4: now you need naval superiority to launch the invasion, and the invasion force needs time to prepare. The invasion ships can be intercepted, unlike in HOI3 where you were guaranted to make it to shore once the invasion had started. Troops will be unable to fire on defenders while on their way to shore, but will still be fired upon.

Nuclear bombing
HOI3: you could drop the bomb wherever you wanted to, range permitting.
HOI4: now you need air superiority over the target region.

...and probably lots more that I can't think of at the moment ;) .


I like to say that if HOI3 came after HOI4, and not the other way around, people would probably still complain as much, or more, that it was dumbed down. The division designer would be gone, you would have generic "industry" instead of three types of factories, you would no longer have vehicles, equipment and guns individually tracked, you would no longer be able to form factions, supplies would only be generated at your capital, and there would be no more variants. Sure, you would also get an OOB system and various other goodies, but the game would still feel dumbed down due to the stuff you were losing.

On balance, I, personally, feel HOI4 is a big step in the right direction, rather than a dumbed-down version of HOI3. I'm looking forward to the added depth more than I miss the features that have been cut.
 
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Might as well. I've been considering doing this for a while, actually, because it's a subject that comes up often and it'd be handy to have this to refer people to. From the top of my head (will probably update this later):

Coups, civil wars, and intervention
HOI3: civil wars are handled by historical events and decisions. You can stage coups in foreign countries. Intervention in civil wars is handled by events that do nothing but increase relations, or by lend-leasing abstracted "IC".
HOI4: now civil wars are a dynamic feature, which can theoretically break out anywhere. Intervention can take the form of actual supplies, planes, and other equipment that is physically sent to the recipient, which can make a significant difference if two minor countries without tanks of their own are fighting, and one of them can suddenly field T-34s.

Peace conferences
HOI3: come victory, winners enforce war goals, and territory is largelly divided by who is occupying what provinces.
HOI4: now there is a peace conference system where the victors take turns claiming the spoils of war, with various factors such as war score affecting who can claim what.

Factions and declarations of war
HOI3: there are only three factions, and if you join one, you're stuck in it forever. Anyone can declare war provided their neutrality is sufficiently low and threat is sufficiently high.
HOI4: anyone can create factions, and what system of government you have now matters far more, thanks to such things as World Tension. Declarations of war require Casus Belli. You can leave factions if things are starting to go belly-up.

Division designer
HOI3: your smallest building block is the brigade. You can design these pretty much the way you want them. You can prioritise divisions for upgrades and reinforcements.
HOI4: now the smallest building blocks are companies, and you can assign divisions support assets such as signal battalions or field hospitals. You have three levels of supply priority, not two. Divisions can be assigned custom icons. You spend experience on building or editing division templates.

Units and divisions
HOI3: you have one kind of each unit -- one type of small tank, one type of fighter, one type of submarine, for example, and upgrades affect all units of this type. That is, you have "Interceptor wing level 1", which upgrades to "Interceptor wing Level 2". Individual units within divisions are abstracted into division upgrades and "strength". A tank division is for all intents and purposes a single unit, with organisation, strength, and various upgrades.
HOI4: every new upgrade is now a different vehicle; in effect, you can't build 100 level one interceptors and then upgrade them to level two interceptors. Units can be further customised by the variant system. Divisions now track individual pieces of equipment, tanks and whatnot within them, so a tank division, instead of just having 10 000 men and "100% strength", can have "10 000 men (with 1000 sets of infantry equipment), 4 KV-1s, 21 T-34s, 30 T-28s, 20 Self-Propelled 88mm AT guns, 22 Self-Propelled AA guns, 60 trucks, a field hospital, and a signal company".

Industry
HOI3: factories produce resources to generate abstracted "industrial capacity" which can be be used to build anything.
HOI4: now you have three types of industry: civilian, military and naval. Factories have to be assigned to build specifc items such as field hospitals, interceptors, infantry equipment, destroyers, and artillery guns.

Production and equipment
HOI3: abstracted "IC" is spent producing abstracted "reinforcements". Practical builds up over time and affects all units of a given type. For example, factories building level four tank divisions still benefit from practical acquired from building level one, two, and three tank divisions.
HOI4: now the game tracks subs, destroyers, aircraft, tanks, trucks and infantry gear packages individually. Divisions don't just regain "strength", but physically receive tanks, infantry gear, and so on. Practical builds up per unit, so switching from building a level one tank to a level two tank will hurt production efficiency. You can build various kinds of new vechiels, such as self-propelled artillery, using the chassis of existing vehicles.

Supply
HOI3: supply is generated in the capital only, and flows outwards to units according to a system that was not easy to manage, and not properly understood by players.
HOI4: now supply is generated by large cities, and the system is more readily understandable.

Coups, civil wars, and intervention
HOI3: only in a few cases; handled by events and decisions. You can stage coups in foreign countries. Intervention is handled by events that do nothing, or by lend-leasing abstracted "IC".
HOI4: now civil wars are a dynamic feature that can break out anywhere. Intervention can take the form of actual supplies, planes, and other equipment that is physically sent to the recipient.

Division designer
HOI3: your smallest building block is the brigade. You can design these pretty much the way you want them.
HOI4: now the smallest building blocks are companies, and you have three levels of supply priority, not two. Divisions can be assigned custom icons. You need to learn lessons on the battlefield to make changes to your divisions.

Units
HOI3: you have one kind of each unit -- one type of small tank, one type of fighter, one type of submarine. Upgrades affect all units of this type. That is, you have "Interceptor wing level 1", which upgrades to "Interceptor wing Level 2".
HOI4: every new upgrade is now a different vehicle; in effect, you can't upgrade level one interceptors to level two interceptors. Units are further customised by the variant system. Enemies can capture equipment on the battlefield.

Industry
HOI3: factories produce resources to generate abstracted "industrial capacity" which can be be used to build anything. You spend "8 IC a day" to build a "destroyer flotilla", for example.
HOI4: now you have three types of industry: civilian, military and naval. Individual factories, rather than "IC", is used to build things. Instead of just producing divisions, you produce artillery guns, tanks, infantry gear, etc. separately, which are assigned to divisions as needed.

Production and equipment
HOI3: abstracted "IC" is spent producing abstracted "reinforcements". Practical builds up over time and affects all units of a given type. For example, factories building level four tank divisions still benefit from practical acquired from building level one, two, and three tank divisions.
HOI4: now the game tracks subs, destroyers, aircraft, tanks, trucks and infantry gear packages individually. Practical builds up per unit, so having factories switch from building level one tanks to level two tanks will hurt production efficiency.

Leadership
HOI3: you pick ministers, and everything else is abstracted "leadership", which is spent on espionage, research, diplomacy and so on.
HOI4: you pick ministers as well as what companies and organisations to put in charge of research and production. Political capital (political power) is accumulated and spent to enforce decisions.

AI and Battle Planners
HOI3: the AI was very rudimentary and could only be given very simple instructions. The Battle Planner only allowed you to draw on the map.
HOI4: now the battle planner is used to give instructions to the AI, allowing you to give them fairly complex instructions.

Operational warfare
HOI3: you can tell your troops to begin operations on the fly.
HOI4: now you have to give your men time to prepare for offensives, or they will not fight at full efficiency.

...and probably lots more that I can't think of at the moment ;) .

I like to say that if HOI3 came after HOI4, and not the other way around, people would probably still complain as much, or more, that it was dumbed down. The division designer would be gone, you would have generic "industry" instead of three types of factories, you would no longer have vehicles, equipment and guns individually tracked, you would no longer be able to form factions, supplies would only be generated at your capital, and there would be no more variants. Sure, you would also get an OOB system and various other goodies, but the game would still feel dumbed down due to the stuff you were losing.

On balance, I, personally, feel HOI4 is a big step in the right direction, rather than a dumbed-down version of HOI3. I'm looking forward to the added depth more than I miss the features that have been cut.
What about no supplies, no fuel, no money, no independent units smaller than a division (in HOI3 in several mods we had even battalions), no NATO counters, no OOB, no unit leaders, no air units and much more "arcade" abstraction to come?

EDIT
This is the next "abstraction": Fighters don't attack planes passing trough.. https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ers-dont-attack-planes-passing-trough.909877/
 
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fabius

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You do realize that Podcat could post a picture of his own toilet and receive 115 "agrees" right?

Nah, many more if it was a WW2 German Toilet.
 
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Itza

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Nice DD, but i am kinda worried that there will not be any fuel/oil demand for mechanized troops/air/sea. Having fuel consumption is realistic, and also give flavour to experience. Having a brand new division of Tigers on the eastern front, just to see it stand lifeless near the front because of a lack of fuel sucked, but it was also fun at the same time.

I hope you at least reconsider implementing fuel consumption for tanks, planes etc.
 
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Had a mom

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Nice DD, but i am kinda worried that there will not be any fuel/oil demand for mechanized troops/air/sea. Having fuel consumption is realistic, and also give flavour to experience. Having a brand new division of Tigers on the eastern front, just to see it stand lifeless near the front because of a lack of fuel sucked, but it was also fun at the same time.

I hope you at least reconsider implementing fuel consumption for tanks, planes etc.

You're not the only one worried about that my friend

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-mega-thread-post-all-discussion-here.891473/
 
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Might as well. I've been considering doing this for a while, actually, because it's a subject that comes up often and it'd be handy to have this to refer people to. From the top of my head (will probably update this later):

{snip}

On balance, I, personally, feel HOI4 is a big step in the right direction, rather than a dumbed-down version of HOI3. I'm looking forward to the added depth more than I miss the features that have been cut.

I agree that there are a lot of improvements in HOI4 vs. HOI3. The logistic change we have been discussing here is, however, so big that it mainly cancels out the other "pluses" for me.

However, what distresses me more is not the gaps or advances where you compare HOI4 to HOI3, but when I compare the gaps between HOI4-that-is-being-built with HOI4-that-could-have-been. HOI4 could have been a giant leap forward in WWII gaming. HOI3 showed a lot of what could-have-been, but instead of continuing to evolve, Pdox went in a whole different way. IMHO, and without making a laundry list of examples because it is just my opinion, Pdox is making a game that is more eye-candy and "fun" than deep and rewarding. I play a lot of games that are fun. The Total War games, for example, are fun. But I don't mistake them for accurate historical simulations. IMHO and based on statements by the Devs, HOI 1-3 (which I have played all of them) were progressive attempts to be an accurate historical simulation and be fun. IMHO HOI4 is just intended to be fun, and I think that is a shame and not what I has looking for.
 
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Denkt has pointed out the beneficial effect that merging supplies and equipment has in terms of supplies that are only useable by certain units. One cannot use 88 mm shells in a 20 mm cannon. This benefit is in my opinion offset by reverse effects. Now we will be producing ammunition that can only be used in tank 1 variant A, and not tank 1 variant B with the exact same armament. We will be producing uniforms that can ONLY be worn by tank 1 variant A crews, food that can ONLY be eaten by tank 1 variant A crews and fuel that can ONLY be used by tank 1 variant A. It seems to me not much has been gained there.

Stockpiling and hindsight is not necessarily the same thing. As I am sure Podcat knows, Sweden had very large stockpiles of oil well into the 1980s. This was not because Sweden knew world war III was coming. This was because Sweden knew it is pointless to have motorized weapons and no fuel for them. It is insanity to produce or indeed stockpile motorized equipment and not fuel. You have both or none. As warfare has changed over the decades, stockpiling raw materials in case of a conflict is becoming less meaningful as conflicts tend to be shorter and more intense. There is no time to produce weapons to make a significant difference once hostilities have broken out. To stockpile fuel and supplies is still valid. To stockpile other strategic resources was still valid in the era of WWI and WWII.

Then there is the distinction between hindsight and foresight. If Germany knows it will challenge the world in some ways that might lead to war in 1939, preparing for war in 1939 is not hindsight or “cheating”. It is the obvious thing to do and to know war is likely coming as a fair advantage to the aggressor from the moment they start planning aggression. As their intentions are revealed and the threat level (now present in the game) increases, non-aggressive nations could apply not hindsight but sense to stockpile too. The greater the power and direct control of the leadership (policies), the greater the possibility to bring whatever economical assets the nation might possess to bear on this need. The actual stockpile would have to be paid for (as it seems mostly by leasing out industry or trading off excess resources) and is not conjured up by magic or cheating hindsight.

The greatest problem with the system is, however, that I produce the same thing at the same costs to obtain a weapon, supply it with ammunition, fuel it and repair it. Different activities should require different conditions to be met and tax the nation in different ways. To produce and replace a weapon should have a specific cost, to fuel it another and to repair it another and to arm it another.

It is not a question of throwing a tantrum and tossing the toys out of the pram to point out that in a grand strategy game it is disappointing if it turns out there is no distinction in terms of stress on the nation’s production capacity between producing and operating weapons. This is a problem so significant that it is valid to point it out even if it is too late for Paradox to change it before release. What else would the forums be good for? Some people here seem to think the only opinions “allowed” are praise of the decisions made and perhaps complaints about spelling mistakes which can be sorted out in time.

People frequently complain about the lack of balance in stockpiling in HoI3. Good luck with the balance of movement/fuel usage, ammunition usage in combat and not in combat, attrition from dusty conditions, attrition from malaria and disease, attrition from desertion and attrition from accidents all poured into a single attrition value.

A truly HORRIBE scenario would be if manpower is thrown into this unholy mix through production and the “all things that can happen to a unit”-attrition. Your people would then die to fuel the tank, die to arm the tank and die to feed the tank crew. I fear it is likely to turn out this way. Otherwise there would have to be separate attrition rates for equipment and manpower. If supply and fuel had not been mixed into the attrition system, a fair abstraction could well have been that manpower and equipment suffer the same levels of attrition. That is no longer possible.
 
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One of the things that disappoints me most about all of this is that we haven't anything from Paradox on this matter. The points of criticism are valid, made by people who care about the game. No matter the reply, this shouldn't be ignored.

All former versions of HOI have been flawed on release, mainly due to bugs. I can remember HOI 1, a strong contender for the position as the game I've played most in my life, was released just before christmas and totally unplayable on launch.

In the same way, I'm afraid I will feel HOI 4 lacking on release if it's without a working supply system. And it annoys me since I know Paradox can do better.

As a sidenote, I can tell that I once had a boss that wad an old army officer. He told me that logistics class was the most boring subject at the officersacademy, but he had a good teacher that made it interesting. In the same way it could be nice if Paradox made the supply system interesting and not just an annoying hurdle on the way to conquering the Urals or Berlin.

I'm imagining something like an integral part of the game, like research or production, since it is an integral part of warfare.
 
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One of the things that disappoints me most about all of this is that we haven't anything from Paradox on this matter. The points of criticism are valid, made by people who care about the game. No matter the reply, this shouldn't be ignored.

All former versions of HOI have been flawed on release, mainly due to bugs. I can remember HOI 1, a strong contender for the position as the game I've played most in my life, was released just before christmas and totally unplayable on launch.

In the same way, I'm afraid I will feel HOI 4 lacking on release if it's without a working supply system. And it annoys me since I know Paradox can do better.

As a sidenote, I can tell that I once had a boss that wad an old army officer. He told me that logistics class was the most boring subject at the officersacademy, but he had a good teacher that made it interesting. In the same way it could be nice if Paradox made the supply system interesting and not just an annoying hurdle on the way to conquering the Urals or Berlin.

I'm imagining something like an integral part of the game, like research or production, since it is an integral part of warfare.
Paradox has a long experience on developing games for WWII and they are no stupids. If the game is going in this (arcade) direction with so high (and completely unrealistic) abstraction there should be a very good reason. My guess is that there is a business strategy and/or a game engine issue. The "standard" player doesn't know (and maybe doesn't want to know about history and operational warfare). That player just want something fun to play. This is the big part of the market so, from the business point of view, it really makes sense to dumb down the game as much as possible. Another problem can be the game engine (which maybe cannot handle anything we are used to have in HOI3). At this stage the only thing we can wish is that HOI4 will be a great success but, also, that someone gets the license for developing HOI3 for those that like history, realism and immersion.
 
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Paradox has a long experience on developing games for WWII and they are no stupids. If the game is going in this (arcade) direction with so high (and completely unrealistic) abstraction there should be a very good reason. My guess is that there is a business strategy and/or a game engine issue. The "standard" player doesn't know (and maybe doesn't want to know about history and operational warfare). That player just want something fun to play. This is the big part of the market so, from the business point of view, it really makes sense to dumb down the game as much as possible. Another problem can be the game engine (which maybe cannot handle anything we are used to have in HOI3). At this stage the only thing we can wish is that HOI4 will be a great success but, also, that someone gets the license for developing HOI3 for those that like history, realism and immersion.

I think you're right that we're at the "too late to change anything fundamental"-stage now. It still doesn't excuse their silence though.
 
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Also, something that annoys me, is the idea, that the people who are against the new supply system are people with a need for detail in the game.

I'm a historian, have been working on a couple of museums, and this detail vs. abstraction or depth vs. overview is a constant balanceact when you make a new exhibition. It's not one or the other. Guess it's a bit the same when you make a historical game.

And the balance just tips in the wrong direction with the supply system imo.
 
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Paradox has a long experience on developing games for WWII and they are no stupids. If the game is going in this (arcade) direction with so high (and completely unrealistic) abstraction there should be a very good reason. My guess is that there is a business strategy and/or a game engine issue. The "standard" player doesn't know (and maybe doesn't want to know about history and operational warfare). That player just want something fun to play. This is the big part of the market so, from the business point of view, it really makes sense to dumb down the game as much as possible. Another problem can be the game engine (which maybe cannot handle anything we are used to have in HOI3). At this stage the only thing we can wish is that HOI4 will be a great success but, also, that someone gets the license for developing HOI3 for those that like history, realism and immersion.
Are we thinking of the same game? Are we now back to talking about dumbing down whatever that stupid "definition" meant anyway.
Why would the engine not be able to handle it? we have confirmation from screenshots from earlier in the development that fuel was in fact a part of the game. This means imho that it must have been a design question regarding what would make for the best game.
What part of the system is arcady?. The abstraction from production of supply does not take anything from the game, you produced what you needed anyway. Supply capacity/throughput to areas on the other hand is now way more transparant and its possible for even the newest player to understand and fix "problems" that arise due to shortage of supply.
Fuel while not in the game is moved into the production part of the game instead, while you can argue about if that a good or bad decision its not like the concept that Oil is needed to fuel certain types of military hardware has been removed from the game. It has simply been moved from only being a supply thing into being a supply (units with tanks etc. take up more supply in areas) and a production thing (Oil used for production of tanks/trucks/ships).
Its not a question about dumbing down the game or anything else. Heck the production side of the game got even more complex because of this addition. Imho its a matter of a concious decision about what makes sense for the direction the game is going and for what adds choice to the players what makes it easier to convey information, what works and is fun gameplay. Why the decision was made we do not know, but there is certainly a reason a "functioning" system was removed and replaced with something new.
 
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I'm personally interested in how supplying and repairing ships, particularly capital ships, will work. It clearly can't use the same method of resupply as everything else and I don't remember seeing this covered yet.
 

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One thing that have not been talked much about is that in HOI3 supply consumption was constant or binary (for fuel). In HOI4 consumption of equipment will depend on many factories like if divisions are in battle, if they are moving, the weather and the stats of the equipment. This mean that it will be much harder to know how many equipment you need in the stockpile in HOI4 compared to HOI3. If you create to many division you will lose because you will run out of equipment to fast and if you create to few divisions you will lose because of lack of combat power.
 
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What about no supplies, no fuel, no money, no independent units smaller than a division (in HOI3 in several mods we had even battalions), no NATO counters, no OOB, no unit leaders, no air units and much more "arcade" abstraction to come?

That's a short list if you compare it to Safe-Keeper's post of improvements.
Also some of your points are not true.

Nato symbols: they will be in the game.
No air units: nonsense, every last one of your planes is represented on the map.
No independent units smaller then a division: Hoi3 also had divs as a basic unit. You could build 1 brigade divs, but you will be able to build smaller divisions in Hoi4 too. Also you mention mods as if they won't be avaliable for Hoi4.
No OOB: I consider that as a positive aspect, but I guess this is personal preference.
Supplies, fuel: I'm not happy with the lack of fuel and ammo need for units, but this is the only aspect I don't like so far and I'm willing to give it a try before I judge it.
 
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I like to say that if HOI3 came after HOI4, and not the other way around, people would probably still complain as much, or more, that it was dumbed down. The division designer would be gone, you would have generic "industry" instead of three types of factories, you would no longer have vehicles, equipment and guns individually tracked, you would no longer be able to form factions, supplies would only be generated at your capital, and there would be no more variants. Sure, you would also get an OOB system and various other goodies, but the game would still feel dumbed down due to the stuff you were losing.

Back in the day when Hoi3 came out there were people who were out of their minds about how the game will be dumbed down from Hoi2. Just like as people are complaining now about Hoi4.
 
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