Hearts of Iron IV - 33rd Development Diary - Supply

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Jul 4, 2015
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Don't confuse complexity with depth. A game mechanic that is complex does not necessarily add depth to the game.

They go together nicely in a ww2 grand strategy game imho :)




If my grand strategy game wasn't complex to a degree, I wouldn't like it as much. I like hard games :D
 

Denkt

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For somebody what you call an easy game could be a hard game and what you call and hard game could be an easy game, it is not something that is set in stone.

HOI3 in my opinion is not that deep game and from the HOI IV DDs Im sure HOI IV will be superior in both strategy as well as deepth:)
 
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For somebody what you call an easy game could be a hard game and what you call and hard game could be an easy game, it is not something that is set in stone.:)

Im going to go out on a limb here and assume that most players would consider HOI3 harder and deeper than say Angry Birds or Candy Crush :)

Sometimes it is what it is. ;)
 

Enewald

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Lol sorry, my sense of humor is bad.



And I agree. It's too late. The first release of HOI3 was bad also. So maybe, they will fix it.

5anEL.png

:p
dammit, it still hurts.
However, there is no way HoI4 launch will be as bad as HoI3 launch *starts praying*
 
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Hanitora

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They go together nicely in a ww2 grand strategy game imho :)

If my grand strategy game wasn't complex to a degree, I wouldn't like it as much. I like hard games :D

Like I said, don't confuse complexity with depth. You can have ridiculous degree of complexity without any depth. Or difficulty for that matter. I did not find HoI3 to be particularly difficult. It was just mind bendingly tedious and excessively time consuming to manage everything manually. In my opinion, the game would have played the same without the supply system. I just traded a colossal stockpile of fuel in the beginning of the game and called it a day. Beyond that I hardly even paid any attention to the supply.

Another example, the OOB mechanic, while amazing on paper and incredibly complex, added very little value to the gameplay. In fact, I'd say it detracted from the gameplay. Because really, micro management like this isn't something a leader would do. You'd have lackeys for mundane tasks like that. After the novelty wore off, I was asking myself "why am I doing this?"
 
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Cardus

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It's a curious decision, and I share (some of) the concerns about how it will affect navies in particular (I'm fine with the approximations for the land and air war), but over 800 posts of argument/pleading/whining about an announced feature on a game that is ALREADY IN BETA is ridiculous.

They are NOT going to change anything at this point - if they find the game crashes, they'll fix that. If they find the balance is totally out, they'll tweak that. They are NOT going to rewrite a major system because a particularly noisy minority of the community throw their toys out of the pram, however many hundred times they do so.
Even though you are right about the substance of what you are saying there is no need to be offensive. You should be aware that many players in this forum spent hundreds/thousands of hours on HOI and they really like it. So if they say something that in their opinion is a step backward it is just their opinion (even though we all know that counts nothing) with some arguments. From my side I respect the opinion of those that says that not to have supplies and fuel is ok and I hope that my opinion against that is respected as well.
As I said several times I hope that HOI4 will be a big success (to make happy you, Paradox and all those that like such designs) and for me and people like me (which don't like arcade games but prefer very much realism over simplicity) I hope to get a revamped version of HOI3.
 
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Like I said, don't confuse complexity with depth. You can have ridiculous degree of complexity without any depth. Or difficulty for that matter. I did not find HoI3 to be particularly difficult. It was just mind bendingly tedious and excessively time consuming to manage everything manually. In my opinion, the game would have played the same without the supply system. I just traded a colossal stockpile of fuel in the beginning of the game and called it a day. Beyond that I hardly even paid any attention to the supply.

Another example, the OOB mechanic, while amazing on paper and incredibly complex, added very little value to the gameplay. In fact, I'd say it detracted from the gameplay. Because really, micro management like this isn't something a leader would do. You'd have lackeys for mundane tasks like that. After the novelty wore off, I was asking myself "why am I doing this?"

Micro manage was optional in Hoi3. Even Barbarossa in manual was something you could skip and just handle it to the AI. And the OOB wasnt necessary to set up. It just gave some bonuses but otherwise, your divisions performed well anyways. It was mostly for the roleplay and cool factor really.

Hoi3 was only tedious for those people who played all micro/roleplay, and those were usually the same kind of people who enjoyed doing it in the first place. I am one of them. Im an Ops ocd planner. :)
 
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Hanitora

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Micro manage was optional in Hoi3. Even Barbarossa in manual was something you could skip and just handle it to the AI. And the OOB wasnt necessary to set up. It just gave some bonuses but otherwise, your divisions performed well anyways. It was mostly for the roleplay and cool factor really.

Hoi3 was only tedious for those people who played all micro/roleplay, and those were usually the same kind of people who enjoyed doing it in the first place. I am one of them. Im an Ops ocd planner. :)

I am also someone who roleplays, but I found that this mechanic added very little to the game. It did not add much authenticity, it did not really add difficulty since it was easier to manually conquer countries than to have the AI do it, given that AI was a bit daft. The only issue was remembering to move all of your colossal hierarchy.

From a roleplay standpoint, authenticity is the goal and in my opinion HoI3 did this worse than HoI2. Just removing the research teams hurt HoI3 more than the new features added to it could compensate. Then again, I'm very hardcore about historical accuracy and military equipment so I will freely admit to being biased toward the apparent production focus of HoI4. I'm sure most people don't care nearly as much about this aspect.
 

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Forgive me, I am missing what your trying to explain to me. I understand what you saying, were you agreeing with me? The more you have tanks, planes and ships the more oil you will need...


That you said your always producing got my thinking.


I then went off on my own little tangent so take no notice. :)
 

Modestus

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I would not say that big stockpiles are an error because the war will consume equipment very quickly and from my understanding it is better to have few divisions at max strength then alot of divisions at very low strength. One major error you can do in HOI4 is to build more divisions then what you can support.

It would seem pretty difficult to build more Divisions then you can support because the very equipment that you use to build those Divisions is what supports them, the error would be not to use them .
 

Had a mom

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I don't understand why so many people are complaining about the new system here.
I would give it a try and complain about it, if it is really bad after playing it at least one time but not crying all the time before.
It is like always, if something new is coming many people are shouting about how sh**** it will be just because it is new.

The most important thing should be the balancing in the game in my opinion. And to be honest the supply system was not well balanced in HoI III, I never had problems as germany with fuel or supplies - and that was just weird in difference to history.

Maybe many people should just realize that the new system is not longer about active bringing supplies to the front (food, ammunition and fuel are coming automatically depending to bottlenecks) but rather about producing and bringing equipment to the units. I mean you still need to have the (abstract) supply system running to bring your equipment to the divison - having problems with the transport route means not to bring equipment in and that is not unrealistic or mainstream.

200_s.gif

uhf67.jpg


Maybe your progressive logic makes sense when people are talking about Sushi, bungee jumping or online dating. This is a game that aims to be realistic and historical though, and for that reason it is completely possible to the deduce from game mechanics to the extent which this aim will be reached.

Have a look at this list. Feel free to tell us where we are wrong.
 
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RickInVA

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I'm unsure why some people seem to think that IRL that none of these countries stockpiled strategic resources. All countries stockpiled strategic resources to greater or lesser degrees. Germany wanted to stockpile 10 times as much as they did, they simply lacked the foreign exchange to purchase it, but they would have if they could have. Even the United States passed a Strategic Resources law in early 1941 to stockpile 15 strategic resources, 12 of which the US did not produce itself in any quantity. Great Britain had vast fuel stocks all over the world to fuel the British fleet.

I think this would have been a great area for the devs to align stockpiles with National Decisions, to require industrial capacity to build storage and transportation systems, and to balance what was, admittedly, a less than ideal system in HOI3. But rather than design a better system they simply threw stockpiles out.

Similarly there were a lot of good ideas in the HOI3 supply system, but also a lot of flaws. Rather than try to fix the flaws and produce a robust system that offers great strategic depth, models the real life decisions that needed to be made at the highest levels (Do we give the fuel to Patton or Montgomery?), and would also add depth to the strategic bombing campaign, they, again, just threw out the whole system.

I won't talk about the whole fuel debate, I have posted enough on that already. But lets look at the supply system as it is going to be. I think there is some merit in the idea of supply regions, and that large cities increase the ability of defenders to hold out. But lets look more closely at the actual supply itself. Where does it come from? As far as I can tell it grows on the ground like mana. If it represented only food and perhaps clothing, items that the civilian population produces, that might have some reasonableness to it, but supply surely also has to include military stocks like ammunition doesn't it? And regardless of what it represents, how do I make more of it? Is the mana-like supply that appears from the ground now a more-or-less hardcoded restriction on how many divisions I can have? Shouldn't the player have a lever to make more or less supply at their command? (Not without cost of course, please don't assume I mean it would be "free".) The player can make more or less divisions, air force and fleet, but not more or less supply? Do people really think this is a good thing, not just to agree with what has been offered, but to actually agree that such is good game design?

Those of us that feel as I do don't want Total War: World War Two. I want something deeper, more detailed, with more options and ways to interact. HOI4 is becoming so automated, that between making a Battle Plan, assigning one of your handful of leaders to it, assigning some divisions, and letting it go (and yes I know you can micro more than that, but the Battle Plan system rewards those that use it over those that micro). not having to worry about supply, etc., I'm not sure what Paradox thinks the player will be doing.

At this point I'm hoping for good mods.
 
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FUregistration

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You don't have to be rude, just because I don't want pointless things in the game. And I don't think having equipment stockpiles is pointless (at least to a certain point with tech and all)
I'm not being rude, I'm just saying that your opinion on what is pointless in a war strategy game is so ridiculous it made me facepalm twice. Go read something about pos-industrial warfare and you will understand why.

I don't want something that people can build up before a war to combat hindsight, I think this is the best idea Pdox had when it came to HOI4.
I'm sorry you want stockpiles, I don't think it will happen. No money either. It was one of the major goals about hoi4, Hindsight. They chose to combat it with no stockpiles, as opposed to trying to balance it all out with all the resources and countries and what have you.
You are telling other players how they should play their singleplayer games at their homes? You are telling us how we should enjoy the game?
Not only that, you assume that just because we know how in real life world war 2 unfolded, we are incapable of roleplaying it and not exploit our knowledge of events?
And even worse, do you honestly believe, do the devs honestly believe that removing all that stuff will stop players from getting hindsight advantage?

If so, then I'm sorry but....... you are totally delusional and naive.

I wouldn't call what HOI3 had "extra layer of strategy" more hopelessly opaque that was unengaging gameplay wise and not particularly realistic either.
Well if you only played the poorly balanced vanilla HoI3 I can understand your opinion, but I modded the game heavily and played other people's mods. Mods which actually made things matter, the same things that Paradox is just removing left and right instead of just fixing what was malfunctioning and balancing the game properly.

What is worst is that by removing all this features it probably means the game engine, the hardcoded stuff, won't be able to handle things that modders could mod in, like stockpiling, fuel, and so on. This means the Hearts of Iron series is a goner for a lot people.
 
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KiwiNoob

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Why can't fuel be included in supplies?

Because as described fuel is different from supplies. It moves like supplies but the scarcity factor means that it cannot be generally produced like supplies (and as such included in the general supply system).

It should use the supply mechanic but in parallel to supplies (I.e. it's own separate 'supply' system)
 
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