Hearts of Iron IV - 28th Development Diary - Weather & Terrain
- Thread starter podcat
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Podcat says it will be in HoI4 too, related quotes:
Key phrase "gain those winter specialist traits through fighting"
- 2
Considering most WW2 combatants had at least superficial role in WW1, one would assume they do know how to build a trench that can withstand bad weather, at least I know no cases of outright trench network collapse due to rain in WW1. Nor would I expect one in WW2, since we are talking about wars of major industrial powers, that should have basic experience in agriculture, building buildings that can withstand rainfall, and at least basic understanding of medicine.
Surely experience can speed things up, but being incapable of building trenches that can withstand rainfall and mud, when most of your officers spend last war in exactly this kind of trenches would be too hilarious to be acceptable.
- 3
Urban motorways in the 1930s? The first autobahn were only built then, there weren't many of them at first in Germany and I think none outside, in the rest of Europe. The first motorway in the UK and the Interstate Highways in the US were not built until the 1950s.
The German autobahns expanded significantly from 1936-39, but were to connect cities, not to improve traffic within cities. But infrastructure, which you are confusing with terrain, is now on a state basis, not province. The game simulates this building project by a National Focus for Germany to improve its infrastructure in a number of states.
Speed of movement is a combination of both infra and terrain, so even if the state of Berlin has a terrain malus as urban, it will probably have a bonus as infra=10 compared to rural areas.
The infra can be damaged by bombing and ground combat, and this simulates roads being blocked by rubble from surrounding buildings, as well as damage to the roads themselves.
There are also two types of movement which you are confusing: marching and strategic redeployment. Your suggestion that specific main roads through a city are cleared for military use only, sounds more like a Division using SR, not a Division deployed in combat formation advancing in a number of small units through the side streets of a city.
SR in reality had little to do with roads:
There is no specific separation of roads and rail in HOI4, just like HOI3, they are lumped together in infra. I can't remember the details of how the speed of units using SR was calculated, but it makes alot of sense that SR is done primarily on the infra level, regardless of terrain. It hardly matters that a railway passes through swamps, jungles or mountains or the Mongolian plains. If the infra of them all is 4, then the speed of SR should be about the same IMHO. And is not really dependent on the type of unit either. Perhaps the weight could have an effect on the time loading/unloading on to the trains, and be factored into the total time taken to redeploy.
If you SR through a state with a city, then you do it by rail as part of the scheduled movement of cargo trains. Nothing to do with how many people commute in the city. And those trains should travel at least as quickly in urbanised/industrialised states with undamaged infra as in rural states.
- 2
- 1
Yes, but it was a couple of days forecasting not one month
- 1
Great DD! I only have 1 question, even though it isn't really part of the subject:
Will lakes be tiles units can move into? In the Winter War the Russians tried to supply the "Motti's" by walking across lake Ladoga, of course that didn't work. I just thought it might be interesting to be able to walk on to a lake tile in the Winter and try to flank an enemy position.
Keep up the good work
Will lakes be tiles units can move into? In the Winter War the Russians tried to supply the "Motti's" by walking across lake Ladoga, of course that didn't work. I just thought it might be interesting to be able to walk on to a lake tile in the Winter and try to flank an enemy position.
Keep up the good work
Quite a few members of 101st Airborne got trenchfoot during the siege of Bastogne. Knowing and doing are not always the same thing. Most of the actual soldiers would have been in their diapers during the Great War.
- 4
Are global warming and meat hating veganism implemented?
Last edited:
- 1
On the whole movement through urban vs plain thing, I think part of the issue is that in HoI4 (as far as we know) there's only one type of movement rate (unless you strategically redeploy) - it's the same whether you're advancing on enemy territory or driving/marching from Berlin to Breslau. Some random thoughts, could be rubbish, I've never tried to manage the movement of a large combat formation ever, let alone in the 1940s. Some thoughts, not sure how good they are so take/leave as appropriate:
I'd actually expect driving/marching speed to be similar in cities and plains, or even faster in cities - sure, in cities the roads are bunched together, and there's more traffic (but it's the 1930/40s here, so we're not talking modern-style gridlock, and roads can be shut down and whatnot) but on the plains, there are fewer roads and they'll often be of lower quality and not as wide. That said, when a unit is just moving on roads, I'd expect it to be pretty similar on plains as it is on woods (assuming same level of roads/infra, and no hills). Think French units driving to the front in the Phoney War with complete assurance that they're not going to bump into a rapidly advancing panzer division.
The differences in movement speed are, as I see them, driven mainly by movement in a 'not definitely friendly' or even 'definitely hostile' environment, so the formation isn't just bundled up and driving without scouts or what-have-you and not worried about ambushes or potentially coming into contact with enemy formations. In this context, cities would be substantially slower than plains, because on plains you can see a lot further ahead (and aerial scouting is more effective), so scouting won't slow things down as much. Same with woods.
Maybe it'd be nice if it was possible to mod in different rates of movement and maybe some kind of toggle as to which is being used - so you can go 'low org, fast movement' or 'high org, slow movement' (where org represents combat organisation - so while a column travelling in peacetime would be well organised, it wouldn't be organised to go into combat quickly)? Again, I'm not on top of the details of this, so idea could be rubbish.
A bit early for global warming, but if it's scripted I'm sure you could up the intensity of hurricanes in the Caribbean and Northern European summers (and floods) if you wanted? As for meat hating veganism, I'm not sure that's a terrain/climate thing (?!), but according to some very* quick-and-dirty googling, modern-day veganism kicked off in November 1944:
So it's technically something covered in the period, although I'm not sure if modelling niche (extremely at the time!) alternative lifestyle groups is within HoIs scope. Maybe a Vegan vs Omnivore (carnivore?) mod where different nations are overtaken by revolutions of the pro-Vegan or pro-Omnivore (carnivore) camp and then duke it out for the future of the treatment of animals? .
* Because, while I like to have some rigor to what I look into, I'm not sure how important this is to HoI4.
I'd actually expect driving/marching speed to be similar in cities and plains, or even faster in cities - sure, in cities the roads are bunched together, and there's more traffic (but it's the 1930/40s here, so we're not talking modern-style gridlock, and roads can be shut down and whatnot) but on the plains, there are fewer roads and they'll often be of lower quality and not as wide. That said, when a unit is just moving on roads, I'd expect it to be pretty similar on plains as it is on woods (assuming same level of roads/infra, and no hills). Think French units driving to the front in the Phoney War with complete assurance that they're not going to bump into a rapidly advancing panzer division.
The differences in movement speed are, as I see them, driven mainly by movement in a 'not definitely friendly' or even 'definitely hostile' environment, so the formation isn't just bundled up and driving without scouts or what-have-you and not worried about ambushes or potentially coming into contact with enemy formations. In this context, cities would be substantially slower than plains, because on plains you can see a lot further ahead (and aerial scouting is more effective), so scouting won't slow things down as much. Same with woods.
Maybe it'd be nice if it was possible to mod in different rates of movement and maybe some kind of toggle as to which is being used - so you can go 'low org, fast movement' or 'high org, slow movement' (where org represents combat organisation - so while a column travelling in peacetime would be well organised, it wouldn't be organised to go into combat quickly)? Again, I'm not on top of the details of this, so idea could be rubbish.
A bit early for global warming, but if it's scripted I'm sure you could up the intensity of hurricanes in the Caribbean and Northern European summers (and floods) if you wanted? As for meat hating veganism, I'm not sure that's a terrain/climate thing (?!), but according to some very* quick-and-dirty googling, modern-day veganism kicked off in November 1944:
So it's technically something covered in the period, although I'm not sure if modelling niche (extremely at the time!) alternative lifestyle groups is within HoIs scope
. Maybe a Vegan vs Omnivore (carnivore?) mod where different nations are overtaken by revolutions of the pro-Vegan or pro-Omnivore (carnivore) camp and then duke it out for the future of the treatment of animals? .* Because, while I like to have some rigor to what I look into, I'm not sure how important this is to HoI4
.- 1
@juv95hrn , go to the top of the page and hit the link that says "Show only dev responses" . First thing I always do after reading a DD . I most often can't be bothered to read a thread of 200 posts, but the dev posts often contain lots of additional info.
.
. First thing I always do after reading a DD . I most often can't be bothered to read a thread of 200 posts, but the dev posts often contain lots of additional info.This gave me an image in my head of drawing up roads and zoning industry in HOI4, for then to manage massive traffic jams of trucks and tanks
.- 1
- 1
@juv95hrn , go to the top of the page and hit the link that says "Show only dev responses"
This gave me an image in my head of drawing up roads and zoning industry in HOI4, for then to manage massive traffic jams of trucks and tanks
HOI Skylines confirmed.
- 2
- 1
My point was more along the lines of "Digging trench networks is not the same as spending a few hours digging a foxhole and requires more than a worn out shovel and and an IQ of a warm meatloaf."
- 2
depends, if they are not warm, or thoroughly refrigerated, and then cut to make a sandwich, then yes they should be insulted
Edit,
He wasn't but the person he quoted might have been
- 1
They included reservists in most units. I expect they formed up in their home town bases, then were entrained to be taken to the front, ie. strategic redeployment.
Rightly or wrongly movement is attack, so the only speed of a Div assumes contact with the enemy. Divs are then fully deployed in combat formation, usually over a front of 5-10 kms. The supply train, HQ and other support units might proceed down a couple of roads, but the frontline forces are going cross-country in open countryside, advancing rapidly village to village. But in urban its block to block, or even potentially house to house, with each street a possible ambush location. Think Stalingrad not Moscow Victory Day parades.
Whether there should be a bonus for units to move while not in contact with the enemy is debateable. The game allows you to SR in nearly all those situations, and under SR the terrain either has no, or little effect on movement speed.
The only (in)famous example I can think of where a unit marched and their tanks drove a long distance without using trains, while nowhere near the front was the Das Reich thugs moving from southern France to Normandy in June 1944. Forced because of the destruction of the railways in northern France before D-Day. But even then you can argue they needed to maintain combat formations because of actions by the resistance and the Allies total air control. Their movement north is remembered for their visits to Oradour-sur-Glane and Tulle, rather than any great speed of movement.
- 2
Aye, good point, SR should probably cover it. I think there were situations where units moved significant distances off-rails but not in combat formation (units coming up behind the Allied advances in France in '44, and in the North Africa campaign are two situations I think it happened in, but if I've scrambled my memories set me straight), but SR still does this close enough, and in most cases there'll be rails involved.
Indeed. Any kind of proper earthworks requires a Civil Engineer.
(We don't call them Hole-Diggers for nothing
)Absolutely. But even when you're not anticipating incoming fire around every corner, traveling across an unfamiliar city is difficult & time consuming.
I'm sorry that I can't remember the documentary (it was probably Time Team or Top Gear
) but I remember this little factoid because I thought it was interesting.In the last 400 or so years, the average speed crossing London hasn't changed. 6mph
(that's a little under 10kph to Europeans & Brit's born after 1970)Having driven across London a few times (and several, other, European cities recently) all I can say is that you need a good sat-nav in order to achieve this.
- 1
- 1
Yes, but isn`t that the reason "officers" have to get years of education before they get to command anything? And division tends to have many officers, some of whom specialize in digging the ground, making bridges and all similar support work. Also, you seem to heavily underestimate what one can do having only 10k shovels and a hundred axes.
- 1
As for meat hating veganism, I'm not sure that's a terrain/climate thing (?!), but according to some very* quick-and-dirty googling, modern-day veganism kicked off in November 1944:
So it's technically something covered in the period, although I'm not sure if modelling niche (extremely at the time!) alternative lifestyle groups is within HoIs scope
* Because, while I like to have some rigor to what I look into, I'm not sure how important this is to HoI4
Well, I wasn't really expecting someone to take my post seriously and actually look into it
but while we are at it: Vegans sees moral and health issues with eating meat and nowadays they also focus on the cows farts which contains methane, thus creating global warming according to the theory. An hypothetical vegan movement in Germany at the time might have brought attention to this problem since it might turn the lebensraum to mud or dust. That was my screwed connection to weather and HOI. Hitler was, not really a vegan but at least ate some sort of vegetarian food and in Germany the naturist movement could perhaps have picked up the issue and used it in their propaganda.
Well... Maybe matter for a rather crazy mod
- 1
I guess is it an OK approach, however it raises the following question:
Is UI able to cope with significantly increased number of various elements? In HOI the unit statistics page is useless if type of units increased from 20 to 200 since it is not scrolalble vertically.
But in Hoi 4 screenshots I see various places as well where I am not sure how will an extended list of option look like.