Hearts of Iron IV - 24th Development Diary - 11th of September 2015

[Cardus]

My understanding is that a short temporary lack of a resource will cause production to slow down -- abstracting the country making due with alternatives or whatever can be scrounged up. A prolonged lack of a resource will progressive decrease production until it finally grounds to a halt. Thus, a stockpile is kinda sort of abstracted.

Yes, as far as I can remember in WWII Germany had stockpiles and the same Italy. From Hoi1 to HOI3 there were always stockpiles in game. Now the idea is to not to have stockpiles but to have some stockpiles. I cannot understand the logic: either stockpiles are in or stockpiles are not in. The same applies to production: either I need rubber for tires and cables otherwise the airplane cannot be completed or I don't need rubber. The fact that I need rubber, maybe some, maybe a lot, maybe so what it is too difficult for my simple brain.

 

[Cardus]

My understanding is that a short temporary lack of a resource will cause production to slow down -- abstracting the country making due with alternatives or whatever can be scrounged up. A prolonged lack of a resource will progressive decrease production until it finally grounds to a halt. Thus, a stockpile is kinda sort of abstracted.

Yes, as far as I can remember in WWII Germany had stockpiles and the same Italy. From Hoi1 to HOI3 there were always stockpiles in game. Now the idea is to not to have stockpiles but to have some stockpiles. I cannot understand the logic: either stockpiles are in or stockpiles are not in. The same applies to production: either I need rubber for tires and cables to complete an airplane or I don't need rubber. The fact that I need rubber, maybe some, maybe a lot, maybe so what it is too difficult for my simple brain.

 

[Victor Cortez]

Yes, as far as I can remember in WWII Germany had stockpiles and the same Italy. From Hoi1 to HOI3 there were always stockpiles in game. Now the idea is to not to have stockpiles but to have some stockpiles. I cannot understand the logic: either stockpiles are in or stockpiles are not in. The same applies to production: either I need rubber for tires and cables to complete an airplane or I don't need rubber. The fact that I need rubber, maybe some, maybe a lot, maybe so what it is too difficult for my simple brain.

The logic behind this have been discussed earlier in the thread.

either stockpiles are in or stockpiles are not in

Not so easy.
The game doesn't have any more "long term stockpiles". Previously you could stock up on resources that you would use during the whole war or so. This is not realistic for a number of reasons.
The game now has "short term stockpiles". This simulates the warehouses where resources are stocked before being used to produce things. This is realistic.

the same applies to production: either I need rubber for tires and cables to complete an airplane or I don't need rubber.

It has to be seen how much of an impact the lack of one resource will have on production. Also, it needs to be considered that HOI4 is a game, not a production simulator.
I would assume the reasoning behind this is that you can make do with what you have and overcome the lack of one resource, but not everything. For example, if you luck rubber, I would imagine the country authorities confiscate rubber from civilian vehicles or other non critical for the war effort machinery and use it for the planes.

 

[Cardus]

The logic behind this have been discussed earlier in the thread.
Not so easy.
The game doesn't have any more "long term stockpiles". Previously you could stock up on resources that you would use during the whole war or so. This is not realistic for a number of reasons.
The game now has "short term stockpiles". This simulates the warehouses where resources are stocked before being used to produce things. This is realistic.


It has to be seen how much of an impact the lack of one resource will have on production. Also, it needs to be considered that HOI4 is a game, not a production simulator.
I would assume the reasoning behind this is that you can make do with what you have and overcome the lack of one resource, but not everything. For example, if you luck rubber, I would imagine the country authorities confiscate rubber from civilian vehicles or other non critical for the war effort machinery and use it for the planes.

Ok. Let's say first that my memory was wrong. From what I read the Germany in 1938 had only 15 million barrels over an annual consumption of 44. That is about 4 months stockpile. Regarding Italy what I said was valid for the navy which had fuel for 1.5 year. As the war lasted more the navy stopped training and didn't use anymore the capital ships.

 

[Dzanic]

Maybe this had been asked...

How are landlocked nations supposed to trade if convoys are required?

And isnt it redundant to send convoys for trade if a fully functional rail line exists between two nations like the US and Canada for example?

 

[ASPGolan]

In the end, it doesn't really matter what solution is chosen as long as the game is balanced in such a way that the impact of a resource blockade takes a few months to completely cripple a production ability or supply. And as long as there are alternatives that you need to consider and prepare for (like the synthetic fuel from previous HoI) then it should be fine.

I don't really understand the hate against the idea of an actual economy system in the game. Paradox historic titles are grand strategy first of all, before HoI4 is a war strategy game. I wish it could make use of that advantage. Implementation of an adequate economy feature which is easily moddable & extendable is needed for all current and future titles, not just HoI4. The more detailed the sandbox is, the better - even if some things are automated in order to let the player enjoy those parts which are of interest in a certain historic period.

It would also be smarter to introduce such a feature in a game where the player does not micro the economy, in which less variability plays a role (in HoI4 the availability of resources would be the only thing the player can control and that allows the devs to better design the economy). If you go for such a thing directly, just like they did for V2, yeah, I see how you would might fail - but then again this is not an argument against introducing such a system in a simpler game, it's the other way around!! And as for the reason why it might be needed in HoI4 or any other game, it's even simpler to explain: the way the economy is scripted in previous titles hurts gameplay, it forces the player to use gimmicky gamey tactics in order to get around certain limitations (not to mention that's it's a grand strategy title with a historic flavour and history was as much about economics and politics as it was about the actual fighting!!!).

 

[mursolini]

From 1-100% You could find any figure as it's highly dependent on the circumstances. I wouldn't want Paradox to trust what's written in the forum in any case when it comes to hard-facts as they're pretty slick in doing their own research (as well as having their own experiences). There are researchers out there that does a mighty fine job of actually doing their job so that us ordinary folk don't have to dig through the archives and read every actual war-diaries of divisions and doctors.


If memory serves me right close to 60% of the German casualties in December of 41' was due to weather/exposure (although most were operational-losses rather than "dead") and about 2/3rds of that number were from units that was mobile up to the Russian counter-offensive. Now I'm not stating that ALL of those units were not/less dug-in than on other fronts and the non-combat attrition-rates are also naturally higher in units in frequent combat due to a lack of hygiene, food, rest etc but the numbers are still high enough that one cannot readily disregard them as just a fluke.
I would recommend reading Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organisational and Statistical Analysis by Nigel Askey for a thorough breakdown on German casualty-rates but I'm not going to start digging through my library just to bring you quotes. You can believe the statement or disregard it as you please.


It's not only about temperature but moisture, air-pressure, temperature, equipment, training, logistics/food/hygiene, lodging, officers, terrain, enemy actions etc etc etc and it's not a battlefield simulation we're talking about but a strategy-game. It might not even make sense to use historical/accurate figures due to game-play reasons and in any case a game on the operational/strategic level don't need to delve into casualty modifiers on that level of depth. I'm not trying to tell PDS HOW to develop a game (since they're clearly better at it than me) but there's not a word about digging-in/entrenchment in the new terrain-modifiers system and that is the reason I asked.

So, in other words, the game has to have mechanics that nobody knows how much impact it actually made.

Ok, I think your point is clear.

 

[DeclaredYuppie]

Was thinking a bit about trade and HoI-3 last night (god that's a sad statement), and started wondering about something. Re-reading the dev comments I think it's what they're getting at, but wanted to confirm:

In 3, trade was a not altogether obvious but powerful way to influence other nations. If you traded a lot with someone, you usually ended up with good relations and it would take events, ideology differences and alliance memberships to outweigh those. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it meant sometimes it was hard to naturally create friction between nations, especially if you left trade to the AI.

It sounds like in 4 though, that relations will drive trade and not so much the other way around. Is that a fair statement?

 

[Lifthrasil]

If Embargos can only be implemented via NF, does this mean I am limited to historical or at least "plausible" enemies when considering to embargo somebody?
Wouldn't that hurt the sandbox mode? If I as SU for example want to embargo Argentinia, because it's an enemy of Communist Brazil, how would I do that if there is no specific NF to "Embargo against Argentinia"?

 

[joe9594]

You cant. In this case realism has taken a back seat to gameplay. Stopping players from embargoing is like getting rid of stockpiles. We know what is coming so we will do stuff it would be preposterous for real leaders of the time period to even think of but which we know will be good. PDX are trying to lessen our ability to do stuff like that.

 

[FUregistration]

First of all, there are no stockpiles of resources, as all you have are assumed to be used every day.

How is that all we will have is assumed to be used every day? What if I don't want to? What if I'm importing resources and have my industry stopped? Does all those resources just... disappear...?

You have no control over who you export to, except you will not trade with anyone you are at war with.

And why can't I make specific trade deals with other nations? I don't want to buy Oil from the Soviet Union, I don't want to finance their defense against my German invasion if I can buy that oil from Romania and Venezuela.

Embargos can be placed through certain national focuses as well to block trade.

Does this mean we can only make embargoes through events? Or does this mean that we can make embargoes just like in HoI3?


Trade deals on an individual basis should be available to players, and to stop the trade dealing insanity of HoI3, yeah implement this system where whatever your industry is missing the AI deals with it. As for stockpiling, I tell you, this whole "no stockpiling thing" is a huge huge mistake.

 

[safe-keeper]

How is that all we will have is assumed to be used every day? What if I don't want to? What if I'm importing resources and have my industry stopped? Does all those resources just... disappear...?

Same way IC worked in HOI3, basically. If you didn't use it, it was wasted.

Not sure if I agree with there being no resource stockpiles, but I'm willing to give it a try. More sceptical to how they've removed fuel as a resource. That doesn't make sense to me.

And why can't I make specific trade deals with other nations? I don't want to buy Oil from the Soviet Union, I don't want to finance their defense against my German invasion if I can buy that oil from Romania and Venezuela.

Hindsight. They've said that if you can choose, you'll just stockpile from day 1, leading to stores of 999999 of every resource like in HOI3.

 

[Denkt]

Well the logistical DD will probably tell why they chose to remove fuel

 

[Praetorian44]

While this was an informative and interesting DD, I'm a little disappointed that it didn't cover supply as I thought that it would this week.

 

[Denkt]

This is an old DD, the new one will come tomorrow

 

[Beagá]

Same way IC worked in HOI3, basically. If you didn't use it, it was wasted.

Not sure if I agree with there being no resource stockpiles, but I'm willing to give it a try. More sceptical to how they've removed fuel as a resource. That doesn't make sense to me.

Hindsight. They've said that if you can choose, you'll just stockpile from day 1, leading to stores of 999999 of every resource like in HOI3.

Removing one part of the whole logistics of fuel does allow for easier programming.

One thing is extracting oil and that´s it, another is having to convoy oil to refinery, then send it elsewhere. It´s 2 convoy steps rather than one.

In the end, it´s acceptable as abstraction, certainly more than removing money, which kinda makes expanding the time line a bit more complicated.

 

[Axe99]

Removing one part of the whole logistics of fuel does allow for easier programming.

One thing is extracting oil and that´s it, another is having to convoy oil to refinery, then send it elsewhere. It´s 2 convoy steps rather than one.

In the end, it´s acceptable as abstraction, certainly more than removing money, which kinda makes expanding the time line a bit more complicated.

It could lead to some odd results though - the best example I've got is the Japanese fleet, which was severely limited late-war because of lack of fuel. If they don't need it in HoI4, then they'll have far more freedom of operation in a historical playthrough than they did IRL, in a way that is implausible and reduces the nuance in the game - well, unless they abstract fuel into supplies, in which case countries like China will have a rough time of it supplying their foot infantry because they need oil for it! I'm waiting judgement until we know a bit more, but fuel was a big deal (even for the US and UK, let alone for the likes of Germany, Japan and Italy) at a strategic level during WW2, and I'd be a bit disappointed if the game didn't reflect that, at least to some degree. Anyways, not long to wait until the DD now .

 

[FUregistration]

Same way IC worked in HOI3, basically. If you didn't use it, it was wasted.

Well if your factories aren't working they certainly aren't producing, but if your ships bring 100 tons of iron they won't just say: " Oh well, we can't use it today so let's dump it on the bottom of the ocean!!" Therefore it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Not sure if I agree with there being no resource stockpiles, but I'm willing to give it a try. More sceptical to how they've removed fuel as a resource. That doesn't make sense to me.

I didn't even knew that... so I can't store oil and I can't store fuel... wonder how that will play out...

Hindsight. They've said that if you can choose, you'll just stockpile from day 1, leading to stores of 999999 of every resource like in HOI3.

That argument is the sign of lack of arguments to defend their point. I mean, its a war of game mechanics where only game mechanic A and game mechanic B are possible, aka, is there only two possible scenarios, removal of stockpiles or everyone is going to stockpile enough to build a metal skyscraper that reaches the moon? What about making easy and simple mechanics that make players avoid stockpiling? What about game mechanics to limit such stockpiling?

 

[wingo]

Well if your factories aren't working they certainly aren't producing, but if your ships bring 100 tons of iron they won't just say: " Oh well, we can't use it today so let's dump it on the bottom of the ocean!!" Therefore it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.


I didn't even knew that... so I can't store oil and I can't store fuel... wonder how that will play out...


That argument is the sign of lack of arguments to defend their point. I mean, its a war of game mechanics where only game mechanic A and game mechanic B are possible, aka, is there only two possible scenarios, removal of stockpiles or everyone is going to stockpile enough to build a metal skyscraper that reaches the moon? What about making easy and simple mechanics that make players avoid stockpiling? What about game mechanics to limit such stockpiling?

Resources do not disappear, there is a simple explanation what happens to free resources - they do not get extracted. Because if you have mines and have bigger capacity than there is a market for your resources, it would be stupid to extract them and just create a small mountain of resources beside the mine for huge costs eventually bankrupting yourself - you only extract as much as you can sell. So available resources are just a potential capacity, in the end you extract exactly as much as you need.

 

[CaesarCzech]

Well, I personally do not like it. Way to oversimplified and restrictive for my taste, and abstract. For me it was better in HOI2 and HOI3.

I actually do not like several things I have seen. Air battle is one thing - too big regions. Same thing goes with automatic sea battles. Battle plans also - what if I want to place units by myself? I do not get prepared plan bonus? It is forcing a player to use new feature and AI that most likely won't be up to the task if any grand strategy PDX game is considered. Then this whole thing with civilian factories and trade.

On the other hand, National Focus, variant system, division builder, laws and political power system - great things! More sandy box game with freedom - great thing!

But the game in general gets way too much abstractions and automatisations for my taste. This is just my opinion, no one has to agree, but I needed to say what I think.

Yeah we will need new blackice 4