Hearts of Iron IV - 24th Development Diary - 11th of September 2015

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rjohansen

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In Burma it was definitely both. Occupied Europe probably had more deaths than usual connected to malnutrion, but outside of POW camps, it werent endemic. Crash Course made a bit on it, not sure if its the best way to present the war, but interesting still.

I don't know what was going on in Burma though. But in Norway for instance, and probably for most other occupied countries as well, food and luxery was sparse. Malnutrition? Perhaps. But studies show that the population actually had a better health during the occupation years - less heart attacks than normal and much more. Because of lack of fat and sugar perhaps.
 
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potski

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the trade system in HOI4 absolutely make more sense, than a currency based trade system.
To import steel from Sweden, Germany must export something else to Sweden in order to pay for the steel.
And that is what this new trade system simulates better than a generic currency called "Money".
While I agree with the simplification of trade, this is a bit too much of a stretch.

In HOI3, trade was either something you ignored, using AI control, or would micro you to death with constant offers to trade, cancellations of perfectly good trade agreements. For those who could withstand this torrent of hell by the game, then gamey diplomatic results could be brought about, that were entirely unrealistic. And either way, stockpiles were out of control.

So something needed to be done.

But it's not more realistic to do it the way the devs have decided.

IRL Germany didn't buy iron ore from Sweden. This is the first issue. German capitalists bought iron ore from Swedish capitalists. Pre-war the two governments had little impact in this trade. There is a free market, German capitalists can buy iron ore anywhere they want, but presumably bought largely from Sweden because it was cheaper to ship it from the port (in Norway), than say buy it from the Soviet Union. This is not represented in HOI3 where artificial trades could be created (or refused) that didn't make any economic sense to the people who would have conducted them.

So I agree with the idea that there should be a free market. But I'm not even clear that your relations with the other country should matter. If Sweden (the government) had said to the owners of the mines, "We prefer you not to trade with German steel plant owners, they have been supporting the Nazis" would that have been agreed? The "sanctity" of the free market would have been raised immediately. But even if they could drum up the support in Parliament to place legal restrictions in place, then what would have happened is the Swedish iron ore producer would sell iron ore to a Norwegian shipping fleet, who would transport it to a Danish port to sell to a Danish entrepreneur, who would transport it by rail over the German border to sell to the German steel plant owner.

Even during the 1914-18 war, Germany was using that sort of indirect trade to get round military embargo, shipping goods to Holland (who was neutral) for instance. The UK government had to extend the trade embargo to stop ships travelling to Holland and some other European countries, and confiscate their goods, if they thought that they would be sold on to Germany. That was not really such an issue after 1940, as nearly all ships bound for North European ports were suspect, but I guess Sweden and Vichy France was subject to those restrictions in terms of anything they might try to import on behalf of Germany.

Anyway, only at war can foreign trade be truly controlled by governments, except perhaps with the Soviets, where all production was centrally controlled.

But we have the Swedish capitalist selling his iron ore to Germany, by what stretch of the imagination does he get a chunk of German factories to produce goods with instead of money? Even if you abstract out the individual capitalists, the presumption has to be made that there are always bilateral agreements where "we sell you our resources, you buy our manufactured goods". When in fact Sweden would have got money (in some form through foreign exchange rates) and was then free to spend that money on importing coal from UK, fish from Norway etc.

The IC you gain from foreign trade means that Sweden can produce infrastructure, fortifications, air bases, and other factories, including (if they choose) to use for military and naval production, built by factories in Germany.

Even if you argue that Germany produces civilian goods, which then frees up the factories in Sweden to produce infra etc then the problem is that those civilian goods teleport to Sweden - there is no requirement for Sweden to use it's convoys to carry these from Germany to Sweden.

[Which might have been the case in HOI3 anyway, if they were on the same continental landmass? Another unrealistic abstraction that meant Japan could buy resources from Nepal without using convoys, and even if railways would have to pass through a war zone.]

I'm not advocating the devs change the system - we are not playing an economic simulator. But it is hardly more realistic than HOI3. That would have required setting realistic limits on the stockpiles allowed, such as restricted by your infra or IC. And having custom duties and things like that, with a system which is only indirectly influenced by governments pre-war.

The trade system is a huge compromise which can be justified only if the game is accepted as a war game, not a long-term nation builder like EU4 or Victoria. As long as it has the end result that forces Japan and Germany to go looking for resources by conquest, rather than just buying huge stockpiles pre-war, and an embargo against Japan in particular matters, then I'm OKish with the new system.
 
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rjohansen

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Might still want to embargo Germany though if you're confident the rest of the world can still buy up all your surplus.

From what I understand, you can't embargo anyone in HOI4. Also, you can't choose who to sell to (free market), the only thing you can choose is who to buy from, am I correct?
 
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Bole

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I actually want to see my factories produce tanks made of oil, when I lack the steel. Seriously, guys - this is hilarious.

And you consume all you resouces every day. Because that makes sense. And less problems to the programmers.

Seriously, this is starting to smell EvW all over again.HOI3 is a perfectly fine product with little problems. Micromanagement hell with theatre construction. Update of graphics is welcomed. BetterAI. But then this is basically it. I would guess that development team is completely new in 5 years and i am starring to get very doubtful.It was the same with EvW, few delays, then ideas about abstract oversimplifications becouse they cant get a working product and then it was cancelled. And even if i believe that hoi4 will be released i cant see it beiing better product than hoi3 with such dumbed down abstract oversimplifications.
 
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tompalmer

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On the subject of Money (or rather lack thereof) in HOI4

So, when people ask for HOI4 to have a Money based trade system; What kind of money are you talking about?
A generic currency called "Money" would not do the trick.
In order to import anything, Germany had to export something else, to get the foreign currency they needed to pay for the import.
In that way, the trade system in HOI4 absolutely make more sense, than a currency based trade system.
To import steel from Sweden, Germany must export something else to Sweden in order to pay for the steel.
And that is what this new trade system simulates better than a generic currency called "Money".
Generally historians use a "neutral" currency, like IE : Dollars of 1990.
Germany paid a lot of things with gold (argentinian platine for example) stolen from jews and from occupied contries central banks.
The use of neutral countries (spain, sweden, portugal, switzerland) was also very helpful to get Dollars, ressources or weapons.
 

Vlad_Constantin

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Can you point out on a screenshot of the interface of HOI4 the amount of supplies stockpiled? There were two prominent figures in HOI3 showing the amount of supplies and fuel you had. Even if we assume that fuel is now subsumed within supplies, where are they?

Did you see in any of the videos on YouTube the players creating on map supply deposits?

This is what i understood from reading all the DDs and most replies of the developers.
 

21oliver

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Im not a big fan of the new system. The old system had issues, ones that i felt could have easily been fixed but instead it was totally scrapped. There are ways stockpiling could have been dealt with. First of all regardless of how good your relations its totally unrealistic of any nation to sell basically all their surplus resources, yet alone to a single nation (as we could say buy up all the Soviet Union's resources as Germany). So first of all each nation should have tried to maintain a surplus, not simply even balance. Secondly there should be a limit % wise how much a nation would trade of its resources to another nation, and this could have been based on your relations. It would have been a cap. For example at each "plateau" of relations a nation may be willing to trade you X amount of a specific resource. Next increase the time it takes to conduct political missions, it was far too short imo. This would limit your trade opportunities. Additionally you could have a spillage or waste % of resources stockpilied beyond a certain amount or if kept for a certain amount of time. You also could have reduced the chance of success of trade missions, even those at high relations. There are many ways this area could have been dealt with imo. I think we simply got a simplified setup which doesn't seem realistic. Almost feels like they dont want you to care about trade anymore but felt the need to include it so they can simply say that its there.
 

blue_yonder

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That is a very good point. I didnt even look at that....

gosh - you mean that your certainty concerning how the new trade system could and should be improved from its current awfulness, written within 24 hours of the DD, might not actually be as good as the concepts of podcat and darkenown and others who have been thinking about it for years and years? You and krafty should get together, and produce a masterpiece of pc gaming by this time next week.
 
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tompalmer

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gosh - you mean that your certainty concerning how the new trade system could and should be improved from its current awfulness, written within 24 hours of the DD, might not actually be as good as the concepts of podcat and darkenown and others who have been thinking about it for years and years? You and krafty should get together, and produce a masterpiece of pc gaming by this time next week.
In gaming design, you don't always do what you want due to lack of ressources (time/money).
I'm pretty sure the trade system is something sacrified of this behalf.
 

Yakdast

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"Aluminum". Where did the second "i" go?
Please fix this PI.
 
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Vlad_Constantin

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The "sanctity" of the free market would have been raised immediately.

I think you underestimate the power of the state over business.

Swedish iron ore producer would sell iron ore to a Norwegian shipping fleet, who would transport it to a Danish port to sell to a Danish entrepreneur, who would transport it by rail over the German border to sell to the German steel plant owner.

And this will result in a much higher price for the Germans, so they might prefer buying from the USSR or whatever.

Anyway, only at war can foreign trade be truly controlled by governments

Ever heard of export bans? China does this today with rare earth minerals in order to keep production of electronics local. So you can come up with legitimate claims that you are helping your economy, and hurt others in the process. Again you underestimate the power of the state. If countries don't do it today a lot, or they don't publicize doing it doesn't mean they are not capable.

Even if you argue that Germany produces civilian goods, which then frees up the factories in Sweden to produce infra etc then the problem is that those civilian goods teleport to Sweden - there is no requirement for Sweden to use it's convoys to carry these from Germany to Sweden

Maybe on the round trip of the ships, but this would mean that if the convoys are sunk the IC gain for Sweden should suffer too, and we don't know if this is true or false.
 

Czert

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I don't know if the DD was badly phrased or some people have a problem reading properly.

You CAN NOT choose who to export to.

You CAN choose who to import from.


Read again folks ,)
but common sense is saying exactly oposite right?
 
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albso437

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While I agree with the simplification of trade, this is a bit too much of a stretch.

In HOI3, trade was either something you ignored, using AI control, or would micro you to death with constant offers to trade, cancellations of perfectly good trade agreements. For those who could withstand this torrent of hell by the game, then gamey diplomatic results could be brought about, that were entirely unrealistic. And either way, stockpiles were out of control.

So something needed to be done.

But it's not more realistic to do it the way the devs have decided.

IRL Germany didn't buy iron ore from Sweden. This is the first issue. German capitalists bought iron ore from Swedish capitalists. Pre-war the two governments had little impact in this trade.

Actually the mines were owned by the state, but I will try to answer you in more general terms.

Trade wasn't so free as you make it sound.
The seller didn't accept payments in all curencies.
It wasn't so easy to exchange different curencies.
The German capitalists were not free to import whatever they wanted, nor use foreign currency unregulated.

It wasn't unusual that the national banks in the two respective countries were involved in order to make payment possibleat all.

I do however agree that one flaw with this new system is that the transport of the imaginary consumer goods. But on the other hand it's hard to move imaginary objects.
 

Had a dad

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Just a friendly reminder, video's with swastikas in them are not allowed to be linked to the forum.
 

TheDecider

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From what I understand, you can't embargo anyone in HOI4. Also, you can't choose who to sell to (free market), the only thing you can choose is who to buy from, am I correct?
From the devdiary you are commenting on said:
Embargos can be placed through certain national focuses as well to block trade.
It is indeed correct that you can't decide who to sell to, only decide who to buy from.
 
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Centurion1973

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but common sense is saying exactly oposite right?
Not really - in practice, you can choose from whom you buy a product, but you have very little ability to influence final destination of your product - it can change hands multiple times, before reaching final customer.
 
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PogoMarimo

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I'm dismayed but not entirely surprised by the comments in this thread. People upset by the lack of appreciable stockpiles without realizing the implications and insurmountable issues they raise in a short time frame strategy game like HoI. People not realizing the unnecessary complication things "money" bring when the scope of the stragic choices make these distinction irrelevant or even obtrusive.

I'm certain that PDS is taking the right steps for the right reasons, at least what they've shown, so all I can say is let's be patient and play it before slamming these new systems.
 
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misterbean

Fumbling My Way through History
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I haven't been following the entire discussion on embargoes and all that, but part of the reason that the Hindenburg disaster was suc a fierce explosion was because US wouldn't sell helium, forcing Germany to use hydrogen instead. Does anyone know if the US just wouldn't sell to Germany, or if they wouldn't sell, period?