Hearts of Iron IV - 24th Development Diary - 11th of September 2015

[jamesd]

Prove it. Cite your source because I cited sources to the contrary.

Third Axis Fourth Ally by Mark Axworthy. "German oil reserves never rose above 1,500,000 tonnes after 1939. Thus in 1939 and 1940 Germany maintained oil reserves approximately equal to Romanian annual oil deliveries. Once the invasion of the Soviet Union began and consumption increased dramatically, German reserves fell to about six months of increased Romanian deliveries. These time spans therefore represent the approximate duration the Wehrmacht could theoretically have maintained its campaigns uncurtailed without Romanian oil."

There's a table which shows Romanian oil deliveries to Germany by year:
1939: 1,556,000 tonnes
1940: 1,304,800 tonnes
1941: 3,173,700 tonnes
1942: 2,302,400 tonnes
1943: 2,472,700 tonnes
1944: 1,078,900 tonnes (deliveries stopped during August)

So what the author is saying is that German oil reserves in 1939-40 were in the order of 1.3-1.5m tonnes and by 42-43 were dropping to around 1.2m tonnes.

P.S. I was sorely tempted to come back with a sarcastic and aggressive post after reading your response to my earlier message. A little tact can go a long way.

 

[No idea]

One thing doesnt seem to make sense about no stockpiles. What happens if the trade just stops for a single day? Suddendly all your factories that use that resource work at less efficiency? I mean, factories, not to talk about goverments, surely had some small stockpile of everything. Perhaps just for a week or so, but some stockpile of raw materials.

 

[Shampoocat]

One thing doesnt seem to make sense about no stockpiles. What happens if the trade just stops for a single day? Suddendly all your factories that use that resource work at less efficiency? I mean, factories, not to talk about goverments, surely had some small stockpile of everything. Perhaps just for a week or so, but some stockpile of raw materials.

Please read the Thread. It has been stated numerous times, that there will be a smal internal stockpile to prevent exactly that from happening.

 

[Dadoz]

First of all, there are no stockpiles of resources, as all you have are assumed to be used every day. There are six different types of resources that are spread around the world.

• Oil - Ships, Tanks & Planes.
• Rubber - Tanks, Trucks & Planes.
• Aluminum - Planes & Support Equipment
• Steel - Tanks, Ships & Guns
• Tungsten - Heavy artillery, Anti-tank guns and Jet planes
• Chromium - The most modern tanks.

• Are supply stockable?
• Heavy artillery mean that an HOI4 artillery battalion is a battalion of Heavier artillery pice (like the 150/150mm) end the light/medium abstracted in the infantry regiment? (or as support battalion).

 

[Peekee]

Has they said if resource can be bombed. At site? In transport on land? (I Assume convoys can!)

 

[Alandrin]

1) I don't understand why you need oil to PRODUCE tanks/ships/planes, is not realistic >>> possible solution >>> you can have a % amount of your oil to be used by your industry/civilians but not because you are producing tanks. And definitely you will need a surplus/stockpile to be used when you move your troops/ships/planes (this should be implemented in the supply system of course well balanced and following the historical availability).

2) Aluminium/ Iron everywhere in the map >>> again not realistic as there were many countries that faced shortages of this materials, including Germany >>> possible solution >>> again follow the historical path, maybe include iron to be transformed in steel, maybe reduce the amount of Steel/aluminium needed. Stockpile here is not so important as we can have a surplus to trade as they do in the actual system.

3/ Coal not included, I agree this is not essential but it adds flavor >>> possible solution >>> add it to be used by your factories and trade. Again stockpile is not so important.

4) Lack of synthetic rubber industry >>> really important for USA and Germany.

I didn't like at all the trade system in HOI3 (very tedious) but trade during ww2 played a mayor rol and the actual system doesn't reflect it (or reflect it in a very different way) >>> PE: Axis are going to suffer shortages of oil, thats ok, but this is going to affect their production instead of affecting their supply lines??? Germany was able to produce lots of tanks even if they don't have the fuel to move them because they have a powerful industry.

Again seems Paradox is over simplifying the game to do a more approachable game. That's good but I am afraid they are killing a bit the historic flavor. Lets pray for modders and DLCs...

 

[moosch]

In working metal you use good quantities of oil based products as lubricant during milling and such. Furthermore fuel supply is a different issue and will be covered by a later DD as stated by Podcat. Don't mix up production and supply. Those are different things.

I too saw the hugh amount of Iron/Aluminium on the map and hope that this is because the game hasn't been balanced yet.

So far I like what I see in this DD. It's not perfect but looks better than HOI3.

 

[No idea]

1) I don't understand why you need oil to PRODUCE tanks/ships/planes, is not realistic >>> possible solution >>> you can have a % amount of your oil to be used by your industry/civilians but not because you are producing tanks. And definitely you will need a surplus/stockpile to be used when you move your troops/ships/planes (this should be implemented in the supply system of course well balanced and following the historical availability).

2) Aluminium/ Iron everywhere in the map >>> again not realistic as there were many countries that faced shortages of this materials, including Germany >>> possible solution >>> again follow the historical path, maybe include iron to be transformed in steel, maybe reduce the amount of Steel/aluminium needed. Stockpile here is not so important as we can have a surplus to trade as they do in the actual system.

3/ Coal not included, I agree this is not essential but it adds flavor >>> possible solution >>> add it to be used by your factories and trade. Again stockpile is not so important.

4) Lack of synthetic rubber industry >>> really important for USA and Germany.

I didn't like at all the trade system in HOI3 (very tedious) but trade during ww2 played a mayor rol and the actual system doesn't reflect it (or reflect it in a very different way) >>> PE: Axis are going to suffer shortages of oil, thats ok, but this is going to affect their production instead of affecting their supply lines??? Germany was able to produce lots of tanks even if they don't have the fuel to move them because they have a powerful industry.

Again seems Paradox is over simplifying the game to do a more approachable game. That's good but I am afraid they are killing a bit the historic flavor. Lets pray for modders and DLCs...

I assume oil is needed to keep your factories working. Although coal would be far more important in this, as i guess machines would be electric powered, not oil powered, but since coal is not a resource any longer...

 

[Joppos]

One thing doesnt seem to make sense about no stockpiles. What happens if the trade just stops for a single day? Suddendly all your factories that use that resource work at less efficiency? I mean, factories, not to talk about goverments, surely had some small stockpile of everything. Perhaps just for a week or so, but some stockpile of raw materials.

I do recall podcat on more than one occasion saying that there is a small actual stockpile, or buffer, for resources behind the scenes to combat those kind of things. I guess such a buffer would simply represent factories taking time to use up the resources they've been given.

Anyhow, in the larger picture there is an abstracted national stockpile in the game. See, If you lack some but not all of the required resource types for a prod. line, you will still produce stuff from that line. So the prod. line then takes from this rationed abstracted stockpile in order to not cease production completely. Granted it could be a more detailed mechanic, this seems perfectly fine.

 

[Cybvep]

I mostly like the system, but ATM it seems strange and even a bit illogical that you need oil for tank/ship/aircraft production, but not for consumption.

 

[elmalvad0]

Food was sparse. But was never a "real" problem, was it? People didn't die of hunger, they died from enemy bombs.

In Burma it was definitely both. Occupied Europe probably had more deaths than usual connected to malnutrion, but outside of POW camps, it werent endemic. Crash Course made a bit on it, not sure if its the best way to present the war, but interesting still.

Link removed - Had a dad

 

[jju_57]

Third Axis Fourth Ally by Mark Axworthy. "German oil reserves never rose above 1,500,000 tonnes after 1939. Thus in 1939 and 1940 Germany maintained oil reserves approximately equal to Romanian annual oil deliveries. Once the invasion of the Soviet Union began and consumption increased dramatically, German reserves fell to about six months of increased Romanian deliveries. These time spans therefore represent the approximate duration the Wehrmacht could theoretically have maintained its campaigns uncurtailed without Romanian oil."

There's a table which shows Romanian oil deliveries to Germany by year:
1939: 1,556,000 tonnes
1940: 1,304,800 tonnes
1941: 3,173,700 tonnes
1942: 2,302,400 tonnes
1943: 2,472,700 tonnes
1944: 1,078,900 tonnes (deliveries stopped during August)

So what the author is saying is that German oil reserves in 1939-40 were in the order of 1.3-1.5m tonnes and by 42-43 were dropping to around 1.2m tonnes.

P.S. I was sorely tempted to come back with a sarcastic and aggressive post after reading your response to my earlier message. A little tact can go a long way.

Oil deliveries are not in question. It is how much was stockpiled that is in question here. You claim (or this writer claims) that it was 6 months worth. One problem here is comparing tonnes to barrels. But it is very well documented that at the outbreak of war Germany had 15 million barrels stockpiled and in May 1941 the stockpile decreased to under 9 million barrels. See W. Tomberg. "Wehrwirtschaftliche Erkenntnisse von 5 Kriegsjahren," (November 1944), pp. 58, 61; see also Speer’s remarks in Imperial War Museum, FDC 1, Interrogation of Albert Speer, 5th Session, May 30, 1945, p. 3.

I checked the ratio and it appears that there is about 6.8 BOE (barrel of oil equivalent) per TOE (tonne of oil equivalent). So this writer says 1.5 million * 6.8 = 10.2 million barrels in stockpile. Now the question is military usage. Once again I refer to a report by the German high command done in May 1941 that said they will use 7.25 million barrels per month. That means the stockpile would last about 45 days.

Most likely the writer was taking into consideration ongoing imports outside of Romania and domestic production. But that is a wrong method. Either way he is the only person to claim 6 months. To last six months the monthly usage would be limited to no more than 1.7 million barrels per month. Pre war 1938 German consumed 44 million barrels per year or 3.67 per month.

It is very clear that your source is flat out wrong in their assumption of 6 months worth of stockpiles.

 

[jju_57]

I mostly like the system, but ATM it seems strange and even a bit illogical that you need oil for tank/ship/aircraft production, but not for consumption.

Well you need fuel for consumption not oil. We don't know what the supply DD will provide. Oil is a resource and fuel is a produced item.

 

[Vlad_Constantin]

To clarify some things...fuel/oil/supplies (whatever it will be) stockpiles WILL exist in the game, just not in the form you are used to from HOI 3. We probably will be able to create on map supply deposits as preparations for offensives. These are the oil reserves you are saying Germany almost depleted in the Battle for France, and all that. is not a huge building in Berlin full of oil.

Second, the devs have said that coal is something too common to represent in the game, and even if factories would use coal for their electricity, it shouldn't limit factory numbers as you could trade coal on the free market as you would trade steel or oil in the game currently. End as it is very common, it would add extra calculations for no extra effect and you will start complaining that the game is not optimized.

Please stop bringing up the same topics again and again

 

[albso437]

On the subject of Money (or rather lack thereof) in HOI4

In the EU4 universe, the currency Ducat is used.
It is representing a specific amount of gold.
In reality a coin made in country X didn't necessary have the same value as a coin made in country Y,
due to differences in weight and purity.
But if they would have had the same weight and purity, then the value of the two coins (at least in theory) would have been identical.
Thus the ducat system in EU4 make sense.

In 1936 the situation was way different.
A German Mark did not equal a Brittish pound or a US Dollar.
One of the main goals of the 4 year plan for Germany was to make herself less dependent on import.
This wasn't only in order to become selfsufficient in case of war, but one of the big reasons were that foregin trade demands foreign currency.
And foreign currency wasn't something that Germany had unlimited amounts of.

After the Kristallnacht, Göring was furious.
Not becuase of the pogrom itself, but due to the sheer number of broken windows that needed to be repaired.
Germany could not simply produce that amount of window glass within a reasonable period of time.
So Germany had to import window glass from Belgium.

The jews were ordered to pay for the reparations, so it wasn't the actual cost that gave Göring a headache.
The problem was that Germany had to pay Belgium (among others) in foreign currency.
And foreign currency was something that Germany didn't have enough of.

So, when people ask for HOI4 to have a Money based trade system; What kind of money are you talking about?
A generic currency called "Money" would not do the trick.
In order to import anything, Germany had to export something else, to get the foreign currency they needed to pay for the import.
In that way, the trade system in HOI4 absolutely make more sense, than a currency based trade system.
To import steel from Sweden, Germany must export something else to Sweden in order to pay for the steel.
And that is what this new trade system simulates better than a generic currency called "Money".

 

[potski]

To clarify some things...fuel/oil/supplies (whatever it will be) stockpiles WILL exist in the game, just not in the form you are used to from HOI 3. We probably will be able to create on map supply deposits as preparations for offensives.

Can you point out on a screenshot of the interface of HOI4 the amount of supplies stockpiled? There were two prominent figures in HOI3 showing the amount of supplies and fuel you had. Even if we assume that fuel is now subsumed within supplies, where are they?

Did you see in any of the videos on YouTube the players creating on map supply deposits?

 

[Bole]

I must say that i am really disappointed by Paradox by the latest development on Hoi4. No stockpiles of resources ? You are joking right ? Seriously, stockpiles of resorces or lack of is one of the biggest strategic aspects of the grand strategy genre. I want to bomb the stockpiles of enemies. Steal them. Stockpile resources to be successful in war. Be on a limit and fail or not. etc, basically this should be a core functionality. Cancellation of EvW, streching the release of HOI4 for two years, etc. On top i just managed to log in or merge or whatever you want to call this my account after spending way to much effort how to do this and you also probably expect from me to now search for keys, etc.

But seriously, no stockpiles of resorces in grand strategy game ? More time you guys get until release you just manage to dumb the game down or maybe you will also manage to get it cancelled like EvW.

 

[jju_57]

I must say that i am really disappointed by Paradox by the latest development on Hoi4. No stockpiles of resources ? you are joking right ? Seriously, stockpiles of resorces or lack of is one of the biggest strategic aspects of the grand strategy genre. Cancellation of EvW, streching the release of HOI4 for two years, etc. On top i just managed to log in or merge or whatever you want to call this my account after spending way to much effort how to do this and you also probably expect from me to now search for keys, etc.

But seriously, no stockpiles of resorces in grand strategy game ? More time you guys get until release you just manage to dumb the game down or maybe you will also manage to get it cancelled like EvW.

Might help your knowledge if you actually read the thread.

 

[Dario50]

So ive been thinking about this problem of stockpiling in HOI 3 you could stockpile 99999 goods without a cost. So here is my idea for HOI 4 if you want to stockpile goods you need to build warehouses the same way you build civilian industry, military industry, etc and each warehouse can have lets say 1000 goods of resources stockpiled. so you can stockpiles some goods but not extreme amounts without killing your military production capabilities.

 

[SonGoku]

I actually want to see my factories produce tanks made of oil, when I lack the steel. Seriously, guys - this is hilarious.