Hearts of Iron IV - 22nd Development Diary - 28th of August 2015

[tommylotto]

Recconaissance should be

You are right, of course, but that symbol will probably be used by the cavalry battalion. Still, they should find something more NATOy than binoculars.

EDIT: According to this site, reconnaissance should be the slash and horse cavalry should be the slash with the lower triangle all black.

 

[misterbean]

Gebirgsjäger-Brigade might be smaller than normal infantry division, is my guess.

A German "Brigade" was something between a regiment and a division. In this case, they consisted of 2 or 3 mountaineer regiments but lacked a bunch of support units.

According to the website Feldgrau, this is what the Brigade consisted of:

Gebirgsjäger-Regiment 98
Gebirgsjäger-Regiment 99
Gebirgsjäger-Regiment 100
Gebirgs-Artillerie-Regiment 79

The 1. Gebirgsjäger-Division that grew from it, consisted of the following:

Gebirgsjäger-Regiment 98
Gebirgsjäger-Regiment 99
Gebirgsjäger-Regiment 100*
Gebirgs-Artillerie-Regiment 79
Gebirgs-Jäger-Bataillon 54
Gebirgs-Aufklärung-Abteilung 54
Gebirgs-Panzerjäger-Abteilung 44
Gebirgs-Pionier-Bataillon 54
Gebirgs-Nachrichten-Abteiliung 54
Gebirgs-Sanitäts-Abteilung 54
Gebirgs-Feldersatz-Bataillon 54
Gebirgs-Träger-Bataillon 54

*= was later used to create the 5. Geb.Div.

 

[FmrPFCBob]

I would like just an accurate discription rather than one that makes no sense as it currently does. It is open to interpretation that neither you or I can clarify
and only PDX can.

Then mod one in, several interpretations have been presented and all are equally valid in relation to the effect of the unit, you even presented some yourself. As long as the devs make sure the system works I don't care if they say unicorns deliver the supplies, I'm not going to nitpick over typos or something so trivial that can be explained or fixed by myself.

From a gameplay perspective the latter is the most important and it will also lessen the amount of "thinking" you have to do when reading said description. Which leaves brainpower to think about more important decisions.

Lessen the amount of thinking, leaves brainpower to think about more important decisions ?? C'mon, the human brain is trying to understand itself, sends satellites to comets, and creates virtual worlds in small electronic boxes. You only have to choose an explanation you can accept one time before you are free to figure out how Brazil can recreate the Sunset Invasions from CK2 in HoI4. This is a grand strategy game after all not Goat Simulator.

 

[RickInVA]

If the division was cut off and surrounded, would it still use less supplies? Those trucks and support equipment would be useless to provide anything, except use up more fuel to keep running. So in this example the division would use the same supplies as one without a logistics unit. The only way to understand the explanation is that the logistics company stores supplies for the division to allow for rapid movement, being surrounded and suffering lack of supplies. So in essence the division uses the same supplies but has extra stored with it, the resultant being it 'appears' to use less supplies.

I'd think one of the benefits of the Logistics unit would be that the division would have more of the right kind of supplies, better managed, with more professional staff to assist command in using those supplies most efficiently. And also, as other have mentioned, being more efficient in moving and distributing those supplies.

 

[Alpha2518]

Whats the difference between Artillery as a line unit and a support unit? I don't really see a difference other then support artillery decreases org. Are there any other changes like more or less soft attack in a line arty vs support arty? Does the difference affect which brigades get arty support in a division? What are all the possible differences from stats to how it works in combat?

 

[iconoclast91]

I would like to try and clear up some concearns. Or at least try to contribute to a better understanding.

@plasticpanzers

I have difficulty with the explanation of the 'logistic company'. 10000 men eat, shoot, use fuel for 10,000 men. How can you 'reduce' the use of
such supply/ammo/fuel by simply adding 150 or so more men plus their vehicles? You then have 10150 men who eat, shoot, and use fuel. The
explanation or usage may be an efficency in the use of supply rather than the reduction of usage which sounds just wierd.

Either re-explain the usage or justify it or change it to another type of support unit. Perhaps the 'static fortress artillery' of my eariler post. Would
make more sense for static, garrison, fortress units than a logistics company that simply adds to the logistic usage of 'stuff'.

on Div level we are usually talking about a Supply Batallion, so not 'just' 150 men. These people are usually maintaining supply points that are easily miltiple square kilometers big, possibly two (Forward and rear). Not stuffed with supplies, but a brigade supply point these day for example easily reaches the 20 square kilometer mark, with a bit of healthy dispersion between the 'subject-area'supply points. And brigade supply points are actually maintained by supply companies. On top of that, they categorise, stockpile, haul the stuff around, alocate, form convoys, have specialized vehicles (or simply more trucks than others) and in this Bn, everyone cares about just one thing: supply. That does make a difference. Especially since in the avarage line Bn's you pretty much only have a handful of trucks that are supposed to keep you going for the immediate future. Combat intensity does have its impact too.

A German "Brigade" was something between a regiment and a division.

Brigades were very mich rarities in Germany during that time frame, not so much during the cold war. Actually, this is when they fully adopted brigade structure.


The Gebirgsbrigade, as far as I know, has been formed that big because they knew they wanted to expand it into a division pretty soon, so it is another exception. I do not a single case, except the Gebirgsbrigade, where a Bde ended up so big, correct me if I am wrong. The actualy difference betwen Rgt and Bde is, that Bde's are enabled to act more independently for longer, due to a bigger bulg of support assets (especially Supply), and a bigger staff (higher ranking ppl, and more staff support). Both, the Rgt and Bde, have Bn's as line units.So the Bde and Rgt are usually competing to be a divisions line units, or you would find Bde's on Corps level as independent units. At least usually in WWII and Germany.

And this is why many armed services embraced brigade structure during the cold war; because in the case of a nuclear exchanged, they were believed to be more survivable, due to a certain independence from lines of communication that would likely fail in this event.

Cheers,

ico

 

[misterbean]

The Germans were masters in making that kind of stuff needlessly complicated. All I know is that this is what happened to the brigade in question, as well as the East-Prussian cavalry. The original 3 W-SS (Germania, Deutschland, Leibstandarte) started as regiments, before becoming reinforced regiments, and later on divisions. If they wanted to indicate that it wasn't a full-fledged division, they would tend to call it a "Brigade".

 

[LostinSpice]

I'd think one of the benefits of the Logistics unit would be that the division would have more of the right kind of supplies, better managed, with more professional staff to assist command in using those supplies most efficiently. And also, as other have mentioned, being more efficient in moving and distributing those supplies.

I agree, to a point but this is only half the answer. If a unit is surrounded and using it's own supplies up then better organization won't magic extra 105mm rounds or Panzerfaust to fight off another enemy counterattack. Yes, it will help what you have get to the front but unless the front line troops stop firing back they will run out of ammunition just as quickly as a unit without a logistics company, (if surrounded). The only answer is a logistics company adds efficiency but also stockpiles of supplies for my example above. So in game this would appear as the surrounded unit uses less supplies or it could stay out of supply beyond 30 days. One or the other.

 

[LostinSpice]

Whats the difference between Artillery as a line unit and a support unit? I don't really see a difference other then support artillery decreases org. Are there any other changes like more or less soft attack in a line arty vs support arty? Does the difference affect which brigades get arty support in a division? What are all the possible differences from stats to how it works in combat?

The answer is we don't 100% know. What we do know is support Art will be less guns and lighter (how this affects production/ combat is not known), move at the division's speed and will match the division's role, so in an airborne unit it will be airdropped as well. I'd guess until SPART is researched and produced putting normal ART in a Panzer division would slow it down, so support Art would be more useful in the early stages of the game for mobile units as well.

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

Whats the difference between Artillery as a line unit and a support unit? I don't really see a difference other then support artillery decreases org. Are there any other changes like more or less soft attack in a line arty vs support arty? Does the difference affect which brigades get arty support in a division? What are all the possible differences from stats to how it works in combat?

Support arty is very light, it doesn't do a lot of damage, but does not slow down the division, nor does it prevent paratroopers from paradropping, or mountaineers from being effective in mountains.

Battalion arty is stronger but also puts negative terrain effects on the division.

 

[Krafty]

I think one the main things people are forgetting with logistics brigades, is its not about 10,000 guys using enough for 11,000 guys, then the logistics brigade helping that...its about bringing supplies with you.

Im under the impression that many are looking at the supply issue as, you have 10k guys, you gives them supplies for 10k guys, and thats that. When I believe in reality, supplies went to a supply dump, and then stayed there. Im trying to think of the right way to explain this. Perhaps an example.

If you have 3 infantry divisions that are tasked for an offensive, you start sending supplies to these units above and beyond just rations and what they carry with themselves, you create supply dumbs, and even satellite dumps to service the various spread out troop formations. When the offensive lurchers forward, the supplies stay where they are. New satellite dumps and depots get formed but the massive amount of supplies, just sits where it was originally. (this is why even in modern conflict, like when the US left Lebanon, it left some 100,000 tons of equipment behind).

A logistics brigade can allow you to carry supplies with you and operate efficiently. This is of course really complicated to model in a video game.

Even War in the East/West, which is far more detailed, avoids this aspect entirely. It adds nothing. So the PDX solution was these logistics brigades lowering supplies. Is that exactly right? No. But it functions.

My only complaint is that a logistics brigade should ALSO represent a construction brigade. Not engineers, but actual construction. Like German FBD brigades that repaired rail and bridges.

A logistics brigade should also help a provinces infrastructure repair faster. I wonder if thats someone we can mod.

 

[Strongold]

Sorry if that have already been asked and answered but do we get to have motorised and mechanized versions of said support battalions?

 

[xtfoster]

Recconaissance should be

Logistics should be

Now that depends on which map symbols you use.

Based on the current NATO specifications (APP-6(C) which are identical to the US Army MIL-STD-2525A because they are custodians of the standard) you are correct. However, there WAS no international standard until 1949. If you base it on the Army Corps of Engineers symbols that the standard is based on (and were in use at the time), your first symbol is not recon, but the MODIFIER for horsed (kind of like the oval that modifies something to be armored, the three little circles that makes something wheeled (which is different than the horizontal line that makes something motorized btw), or the parachute the makes something airborne, etc. The second symbol is supply not logistics...I point this out because there is also a symbol for ordnance...and looking closer at the one use in the screenie...it actually is the one used by the US Army (the bottom quarter filled in black).

During the time period of the game most (but not all) countries had their own standards. Germany didn't use the same symbols as the UK and France (who almost had a joint standard but not quite), or even Italy or Japan (their notional allies). So basically, Paradox could choose any set of symbols they want and be reasonably accurate. Unless you want to have a different set of symbols for EVERY country, they aren't going to be any more or less accurate than any other set.

 

[MicMcMac]

Signal company ? Why do You need company? You have couriers just plain infantry. Where are mortars, Light artillery, rockets launchers big and small (it is not same weapons). Half of weapons is missed. Recon . There are lots of branches of recon, is this artillery recon, strategical recon, tactical recon ?

 

[misterbean]

Signal company would use radio, so it would be a lot faster.
Mortars and so on, I suspect, are an organic part of the infantry.
Since recon would be useful to the division on the tactical level, I think the answer is pretty clear.

 

[jdavis86]

Yay counters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They look great.

 

[MicMcMac]

Signal company. There is second line of comuinication it is by wire. Radios need comunication relley . They have short range. Out of comunication could be even tactical event. Look there is lot of tactic involved around radio. You can even avoid mass assault in eastern front if you build enough radios . Every tank have radio and phone make it without it will change tactic. Without comunicacion everything must be timed. Even mortars can't correct itself (50 mm excluded). Indirect fire (Art) or (Mort) need comunication or they do not work. Tactical_event blind_artilery . Mortars have parallel command chain and any short range artillery (rockets) operate differently than infantry. So if we will integrate integrate recon, AT,rockets.

 

[misterbean]

Signal company. There is second line of comuinication it is by wire. Radios need comunication relley . They have short range. Out of comunication could be even tactical event. Look there is lot of tactic involved around radio. You can even avoid mass assault in eastern front if you build enough radios . Every tank have radio and phone make it without it will change tactic. Without comunicacion everything must be timed. Even mortars can't correct itself (50 mm excluded). Indirect fire (Art) or (Mort) need comunication or they do not work. Tactical_event blind_artilery . Mortars have parallel command chain and any short range artillery (rockets) operate differently than infantry. So if we will integrate integrate recon, AT,rockets.

It's how every iteration of HOI has simulated this before. I see no reason to assume they're going to change that.

 

[Falestine]

HI, i just want to point out that i hate the fu^¨^ing fact your using anything that has to do with that devils alliance of world domination(nato).

 

[plasticpanzers]

"Bob", I am not a fanboy. I do not have to accept without complaint sloppy descriptions by a game maker. I am not paid to fix them or to sit here and
explain away errors in logic. Sometimes holding the feet of a developer to the fire a bit helps them produce a better project. Even small things count.
If you don't like my view on the dubious logic of the unit explanation then ignore it but If I see other bits of fluff like that I will point them out as well...

The game looks fairly decent so far but there are huge gaps in our knowledge of how it operates so I would like to help them fix stuff earlier rather then
later. I am myself not overly happy with the addition of such 'addon' companies such as these that can be done in such quantity. But that is my opinion
only...