Hearts of Iron IV - 20th Development Diary - 14th of August 2015

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MGL 86

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Or, he would have failed against the same country that Napoleon failed against. Including its corruption, ineffective government, inadequate military, backward industry, and low national unity.

I could very easily argue that the absolute totalitarian government of Stalin that the people of the SU were subjected to would have conditioned them better for occupation by another dictatorial regime. Russias immense size has always been its largest advantage in repelling invaders. To conquer can be easy. To hold what you conquered is an entirely different scenario.

Replacing Stalin with Hitler will never end good for Soviet people. First one is ruthless pragmatic dictator who wanted to make Soviet Union strong no matter what price, second one is just a racist who wanted to exterminate slavs. Which one is lesser evil for Soviet people?

Desperate times require desperate measures. Ruthless Stalin and his totalitarian regime, propoganda machine is best suited for unite people and stop war machine like Nazi army. If average Ivan lost hope, mass desertion, slacking off on factory work would have been common. Under democracy Russia could have been collapsed just like France.

Of course in the long run democracy is better than any other government form, but when you got only few years to prepare for the total extermination war against strong enemy that some strange concept like living space, master race totalitarian is better choice.

Totalitarian state can control all nationwide resource (manpower/industry/natural resource/equipment) to only what really required without much opposition from population be it tank production, more industry or even suicidal mass assault.

Imagine free news front page in 1941 Oct in Moscow. "Is president Stalin behind the failures of recent military failures?", "Kiev lost. Will Ukrianains rise against Russia?", "Major worker strike in ... because ... shortage" etc
 
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asteris_

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With all due respect, but I think you are a little lost here. Don't judge or compare anything in history based on dipoles like bad vs good, evil vs lesser evil.
I for once don't really think any "democratic" country were any better (colonialism, imperialist wars etc) or treated its people any better (unemployment, suicides, poor health care etc). Communists were hunted down in every Western country, including mine. How democratic that sounds?

But who am I to say anything, if you feel USSR was a living nightmare feel free to do so. Just don't oversimplify or overcomplicate things, we are talking about a game. Mentioning that does anybody know the answer to my question in the previous page?
 
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kis12134

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Mentioning that does anybody know the answer to my question in the previous page?

Unlikely. The flag and the country name will change, but the national tree focus probably won't, since one of the main ways to change government is using them (at least for Germany).
 

BigPoppa1111

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First one is ruthless pragmatic dictator who wanted to make Germany strong no matter what price, second one is just a communist who wanted to exterminate the non-proletariat.

There fixed it for you. See how easy that was?

Remember, it was rather late in his political career that the drugs started to tax Hitler's grip on reality. We can sit here and go back and forth whitewashing dictators and their deeds all day long, by using the same sentences and just changing a few words.

It's impossible to say what alternative routes would have meant for the SU. But to say that Stalin's way was the only one that would have worked is rather silly.
 
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Lex Tserenjav

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Stalin's policy did work for SU. There is no denying here.

No one will ever know democracy government would have done better than communism to defend Russia. Because as you may have guessed by now it didn't happen.

Everyone knows Hitler is a racist and Stalin is a communist. Which one is worse?
 

Sernista

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Stalin's policy did work for SU. There is no denying here.

No one will ever know democracy government would have done better than communism to defend Russia. Because it didn't happen.

Everyone knows Hitler is a racist and Stalin is communist. Which one is worse?

Well (assuming for Communism here we mean good old twentieth century style Leninist violent-revolution into totalitarianism), one is a terrifying perversion of a benign base principle ("Everyone should get a fair share of the things they work hard to make, rather than a very few people having all the things and all the power"); the other is explicitly built on hatred from the word go. So... they're both awful, shockingly enough. I don't think anyone really has things to gain from "who was quite worse", though my position on that question should be obvious from the above. Neither is a road we ever want to follow again, in the forms it was traveled in past.
 
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zlocish

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Communism is an economic system. You are confusing it with political systems that it existed with.
Communism is not only a economic system. You are clearly confusing it with socialism. Also, communism in real world was a barbaric system that took 10 milion lives of innocent people. I think that's it.
 

misterbean

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We really are getting dangerously close to things we should never discuss on this forum. I suggest we agree to let everyone have their own opinion, and leave it at that.
 
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Sernista

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Communism is an economic system. You are confusing it with political systems that it existed with.

The point of the snippet was to disambiguate between the two meanings of the word, and to make it clear that in the context of that sentence I meant Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist/Etc totalitarianism. But in complete agreement with Misterbean, this has really gone far enough.
 
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GhengisKhan

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How about we keep the discussion on the DD and you guys take your philosophy discussion onto the history forums or something.
 
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Tinos91

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At first I want to apologise for my bad English, but my mother tongue is German and I am really not the best in learning other languages.

I think it was quite unlikely in 1936 of Trotsky to take power in the USSR, but indeed Trotsky and the Left Opposition or the United Opposition (including not only the Trotsky gues but also the former supporters of the triumvirat of Stalin, Kamene andSinowjew [the latter sided with Trotsky for a short period]) posed a real threat to Stalin. Most people in the Gulag-System of Stalin were communists who sung the "International", when getting shot. We know that since the opening of the archives of the former Soviet Union in 1989. Stalin hit against many Red Army leaders because it was Trotsky who founded the Red Army in civil war. A brutal civil war, which should not be over-ideologised in any way, especially concerning a game. So I won't deal with anti-communist (although I indeed think it's stupid) propaganda, because I think I commie vs. anti-commie discussion want provide anything useful for the game. But I want to mention that you got shot by "democratic nations" to as a disobdient soldier and a well-known British war hero called Bomber Harris really was fond of his work (like personally enjoying it), when he killed many Kurdish civilians, which expressed their disobidience to the British colonial-government in Iraq. Or why do you count the famine-victims in Ukraine on the "Socialism"-counter, when on the other hand the famine-victims since the 50ies have not been counted on the "Capitalist"-counter. So such discussions lead to no-where, especially, because there is just one thing we all could agree on: We want to have fun, when we play HOI IV.

How would Trotsky work out in an USSR game or how should he? My knowledge comes from Russian-historics, the original writings of the time and exiled-Russian historics (and my ability to understand basic Russian). In my opinion he would embrace significant more Democracy (why? because he got killed because of his propaganda for communist democracy for instance and his main work was "Revolution betrayed" which prophesies that the Soviet Union is going to become a capitalist dictatorship (Putin) if it does not embrace democracy). It does not really matters if it was his genuine belief or just a tactical manouvre: He would not be able to overthrow Stalin without such demands and could not hold onto any power without giving the Soviet population at least some significant Democracy. Because he would not be able to perform a coupe d'etat, you would need at least some revolutionary processes to put Trotsky in power and then he would have some support from a part of the military leadership, because they would think Trotsky is a safer choice then the purges of Stalin. So far my humble opinion on internal relations.

Now to Trotskys foreing policy. It's true that Trotsky is the internationalist, but indeed he was against on spreading the revolution with the power of bayonet. He opposed Lenin for instance on the attempt to do this in the Soviet-Polish-War in the 20ies. But, he would indeed support the Spanish Revolution maybe as far to the cost of an early-all-out-war, he would support the Reds in China and the Yugoslavs in their guerilla war much more than Stalin. He would not perform the Molotov-Ribbentrop-pact, but I think he would not work as fine together with the Allies as Stalin after the German attack on the Soviet Union.
 
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Mackus

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Stalin is hated by many modern leftist, because he also killed communists, not just anticommunists.
Lenin was murdering everyone who was insufficiently communist, and everyone loves him today. Stalin murdered people who were less OR more communist than him, and he is hated for being no-true-scottish-communist.
Democracy under Trocky would be similar to democracy under Stalin, with one key difference: One would execute everyone who's not Trockyist, other everyone who's not Stalinist.
Which, unless you are either Trockyist or Stalinst, is not that big of difference.

Back to topic.
I don't think communist countries should generate less world tension. World was terrified of reds.
Its was only because of co-belligerence against Germany, that they were ignored while swallowing eastern europe. Any bonuses they get in reducing war tension ought to be situational, not hardcoded.
As to allies not getting puppets, I get it was balance issue, but I think its silly that Axis minors would fight Wallies to the death, but submit to communist USSR. US and UK wanted unconditional surrender only from Japan and Germany, but minors would be welcomed to switch sides in exchange for abandoning their recent conquests and democratising. A "Make $CB_TARGET_COUNTRYNAME$ Safe for Democracy" cassus belli, that results in change of government and switching sides if enforced could be Allied alternative to puppeting.
 
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Ferrous Will

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Why is the symbol of communism in the first screenshot the eagle of the 3rd Reich with the Iron Cross in the background?
Or am i just seeing that wrong?
probably a placeholder.
 

Opanashc

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Do you get a GUARDS division template at the beginning of the game or does it have to be awarded - researched as a national focus perhaps?
In real life, guard divisions were created out of distinguished divisions. Hence, I would presume you don't get guard divisions - but you can make a nice template, with lots of firepower, and call it a guards division.
 
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