Hearts of Iron IV - 19th Development Diary - 3rd of July 2015

[Axe99]

Cheers for the DD, and my word a good DD it was, really liking the look of how equipment works, should add a heap of enjoyment and attachment to our particular war economies, particularly once your work in the whole different versions thing into it . Also a big fan of theatre prioritisation, that's a great quality-of-life improvement . Hope you all have a great break . I 'ave to say, it was great to get a DD a week after another DD (and with a bonus Johan screenie thrown in ), and I'm so hankering for HoI4.

@rjohansen I wouldn't worry too much about the whole Fascist UK thing (and I'm firmly in the 'I prefer a historically plausible game and not a fantasy mid-20th century 'Fun with Tiger Tanks' game) - if the game span out of control without player intervention (or Germany conquering UK and puppeting, or similar), it would hardly feel either like a WW2 game or a plausible game set in the period and playtesting would find this out pretty quick and adjust. If it's something that can only be done with player intervention, then we as players just don't do that stuff (all PDS games require a certain amount of 'house rules' if you want to play them historically plausibly - but for me I find it doesn't create an issue because if I'm in a 'historically plausible' mindset, I wouldn't even think of doing certain things even if the options are there in terms of gameplay mechanics).

I'll be playing during vacation so there is a little chance for some bonus AAR perhaps

You're on holidays, so you should do what you want . But if you you did want to do this I'm sure it would be very well received .

To have a good and flexible civil war mechanic, we needed the V2-flag/name system for nations.

Proof that Vicky 2 makes everything better .

 

[varsovie]

The cool thing with equipment, as we have shown you before, is that battalions will pick up the best gear they can take from your produced stockpiles, and will attempt to replace old gear if there is a surplus if their upgrade is prioritised enough. This means that you may end up with a division with whatever amount of tanks you can get delivered at the end of a war.

Thanks all, and we’ll be back in 6 weeks time, when we are back from Summer Holidays, and lets see how much new stuff you can figure out from screenshot #2.

For the equipment, yes in some desperate or opportunistic situations (aka N. Africa,) Btn. got heteroclite equipments, but they never got issued "whatever available", it would've been a doctrine, logistic and ability assessment hell. Is there any mechanic in-game that makes it so if I get 50/50 new/old of the same model of tank, they all get concentrated in different Btn. without the "prioritize upgrade micro" tediousness?

As for the screenshot ; I can figure that it's 2am in january and it's daytime in the UK... So I assume the time isn't Greenwich time or that you for some reason use 12H clock instead of a clearer 24H one.

 

[rjohansen]

This game is supposed to be a game, not a history book.

If they force me to play in certain way, I might as well go and buy a book on WW2 with pictures. The history is thrown right away once you start the game, and only certain historical things will happen. Do you think AI will always form the same armies and same divisions and use the same strategies as it did historically, with same battles happening?

Sorry mate but not gonna happen. A game should have 'what-if' possibilities to be enjoyable. And there is only so much times you can play the same thing out before getting bored.

And if you are bringing UFOs and orcs into this...well you failed to understand the points of those posts entirely. Historical plausibility doesn't mean fantasy.

Yeah sure, I like an alternate-history game. But not a what-if UK turned fascist, thats just plain stupid and has nothing to do with alternate history, just fantasy. UFOs and aliens is just as likely, UK should never turn fascist.

 

[rjohansen]

@rjohansen I wouldn't worry too much about the whole Fascist UK thing (and I'm firmly in the 'I prefer a historically plausible game and not a fantasy mid-20th century 'Fun with Tiger Tanks' game) - if the game span out of control without player intervention (or Germany conquering UK and puppeting, or similar), it would hardly feel either like a WW2 game or a plausible game set in the period and playtesting would find this out pretty quick and adjust. If it's something that can only be done with player intervention, then we as players just don't do that stuff (all PDS games require a certain amount of 'house rules' if you want to play them historically plausibly - but for me I find it doesn't create an issue because if I'm in a 'historically plausible' mindset, I wouldn't even think of doing certain things even if the options are there in terms of gameplay mechanics).

I hope you are right. Would have tagged you, but don't know how, so I quoted instead. If the AI starts doing strange stuff like civil war in UK, then the country turns facists and stuff, then this game is clearly not for me, I'll just continue playing HOI3 instead.

 

[jamesd]

Peekee said: ↑
#1 How does equipment take damage in combat? (Is it just manpower that takes damage and if manpower falls below a percentage the equipment is lost?)
#2 Presumably a battalion with 50% equipment only gets 50% of it's combat stats. (Or is it non-linear?) What about a Division though? If a mixed intantry / tank Division has Infantry Battalions with 100% equipment and Tanks at 0% equipment would they get no stats benefit from the tank Battalion?
#3 Can you capture enemy equipment? Would be nice to see Germans using captured French tanks for example.

#1 wait for combat diary
#2 its linear, and on division levl its as you say. no tanks, no benefit
#3 not right now, but may happen in the future at some point

Re infantry equipment taking damage, I hope that equipment loss is much slower than the manpower loss. One of the reasons to have riflemen was to have men to carry additional ammunition for machine guns and to keep them firing when the gunner became a casualty.

I also hope there's some mechanism for different nations to specify different amounts of equipment for their infantry. Early war and for lesser developed nations riflemen provided the majority of infantry firepower, while later war more developed nations were switching to more of a fire team focus where the riflemen were there to support and protect the LMG. It wasn't so much a matter of better LMG's as it was of more LMG's. For example Germany started with infantry platoons of 3 x 12 man squads with 1 LMG ea, but then changed to 4 x 10 man squads with 1 LMG (so more LMG's per man) and later changed to 3 x 9 man squads with 1 LMG and an equipment reserve of 6 LMG's per company (again more men per LMG). Late war the infantry of Pz Divisions were operating with 3 x 10-12 man squads with 2 LMGs each.

 

[potski]

Would have tagged you, but don't know how, so I quoted instead

Just put the @ symbol in front of their name. You don't need anything else. When you submit the post, the system automatically puts the link in to their portal assuming you spelled the name right. Like:

@rjohansen

 

[jamesd]

support battalions are assumed to be truck towed if attached to motorized. for main combat battalions of those types they are either slow, or self propelled on top of armored hulls (think Wespe etc). I think thats enough detail, but I'm sure someone will mod in more at some point

I very much hope that changes without needing a mod. Main combat artillery battalions attached to motorised or armoured divisions should move at the same speed as the motorised troops. Nations that could field motorised divisions also fielded artillery tractors that could tow guns and more or less keep up while moving. Artificially limiting German Panzer Divisions to 8 support guns without SPA is ridiculous.

In 1939 a Panzer Division had:
24 towed 10.5cm light field howitzers
8-20 towed 7.5cm light infantry guns

In 1941, well before any Wespes or Hummels entered service, a Pz Division had:
12 towed 15cm heavy field howitzers
24 towed 10.5cm light field howitzers
0 or 6 self propelled 15cm heavy infantry guns
4 towed 15cm heavy infantry guns
20 towed 7.5cm light infantry guns

Even late war much of the panzer division's artillery was towed, with:
6 self propelled 15cm heavy field howitzers (Hummels)
12 self propelled 10.5cm light field howitzers (Wespes)
8 towed 15cm heavy field howitzers
4 towed 10.5cm cannons
12 towed 10.5cm light field howitzers
6 self propelled 15cm heavy infantry guns
8 towed 12cm mortars (these are more light artillery pieces than infantry equipment)
28 self propelled 7.5cm infantry guns
2 towed 7.5cm light infantry guns

This is also ignoring the German non-divisional artillery, the majority of which was motorised and not horse towed.

Can I suggest that artillery be completely rethought. Firstly it needs to be divided into at least 2 categories - field and medium/heavy which have their own production runs. The artillery in the support column of the divisional planner should be the medium/heavy and the artillery in combat brigades should be field. The support battalion should be variable in size, either a "battalion(-)" with 6 guns, a "battalion" with 12 guns or a "battalion(+)" with 18 guns. The field artillery battalions would just be 12 guns. This would allow players to build comparatively accurate divisions, with the above translating as follows:

1939 Pz Div: 3 field art bns
1941 Pz Div: 1 support art bn & 4 field art bns
1944 Pz Div: 1 support art bn(+), 4 SP & 2 towed field art bns

 

[Charles Reeps]

Yeah sure, I like an alternate-history game. But not a what-if UK turned fascist, thats just plain stupid and has nothing to do with alternate history, just fantasy. UFOs and aliens is just as likely, UK should never turn fascist.

Amazing--you appear to believe in historical determinism. The USA, a representative republic, during this period had started becoming the fascist nation it today is; however, it didn't need to happen. I'm sure in the last 40-years many would have said this couldn't happen to the USA. In fact I have a much easier time accepting that Britain, a previous aristocratic dictatorship, could have an easier time slipping back into dictatorship. I do accept that in the time period a fascist dictatorship is highly unlikely, but some form of dictatorship (e.g., socialist dictatorship like the USSR) is not fantasy.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

The USA, a representative republic, during this period had started becoming the fascist nation it is today

What? How is the 2015 USA government facist? Imperialist perhaps but in no way facist. And a dictatorship? Both half's of the congress are in total gridlock and the president has made fewer executive orders than any president in recent history. How does anything you just said or implied about the U.S. Have any basis in reality?

 

[Vidkjaer]

It would be interesting if you, as Axis/Comintern/Allies, could use espionage to infiltrate enemy political system, promote your own ideology, fund underground supporters and secret cells and eventually cause a civil war/coup in the target country. And then support the civil war on behalf of the side that you had covertly promoted.

For example, German spies infiltrating Mexico and creating fascist rebellion there, and then supporting the coup and helping the fascists win the civil war, also gaining a new member for their faction. Or for example Soviet spies backing a communist revolution in Brazil.

Implemented in HOI3.
HOI4 will most likely have it also.

 

[Charles Reeps]

What? How is the 2015 USA government facist? Imperialist perhaps but in no way facist. And a dictatorship? Both haves of the congress are in total gridlock and the president has made fewer executive orders than any president in recent history. How does anything you just said or implied about the U.S. Have any basis in reality?

The US government has gone completely off the rails. No matter the President, Congressional make up, nor the Supreme Court tends to matter. The left and right wings of our two-party system is merely a choice between two socialist entities; two of the same thing equals no choice and effectively a one-party system. Despite the "total gridlock" our massive bureaucratic machine continues to function, and this "machine" has the power of all three branches of government rolled into one. This means the "separation of powers" is an illusion for the masses as this bureaucracy serves as judge, jury, prosecutor and executioner trampling over the citizens' rights. Our police are increasingly militaristic. Add the imperialism and you have a more fascist-like slant to our government. This discussion would require a much more detailed interaction--one we cannot avail ourselves of on this forum. BTW: I might consider the USA an Oligarchy, but remember that fascism contains an oligarchic element.

 

[Oddb@ll]

Getting wildly OT here guys....

 

[Axe99]

Here's a question to hopefully get people away from the current state of US politics! Only of anyone can answer, and it's the right time and not something for a future DD:

- How does the game prioritise equipment - ie, what's considered 'best'? Is it an automatic 'highest tech model first, then the model based on that tech level with the most 'version' points put into it', or is it the 'highest average level of stats'? For example, if you had a kick arse late model Pz IV that, due to better reliability, might be better on the field than a Panther, would the Panther automatically be the 'best' tank available, or would the game know that even though it was a later tech model, it's better sending GrossDeustchland Pz IV H's instead?

No worries if this isn't all worked out yet - it's a bit nitty gritty and detail-y, but more relevant than whether the US is the next fascist juggernaut or not .

 

[Vlad_Constantin]

How does the game prioritise equipment - ie, what's considered 'best'? Is it an automatic 'highest tech model first, then the model based on that tech level with the most 'version' points put into it', or is it the 'highest average level of stats'? For example, if you had a kick arse late model Pz IV that, due to better reliability, might be better on the field than a Panther, would the Panther automatically be the 'best' tank available, or would the game know that even though it was a later tech model, it's better sending GrossDeustchland Pz IV H's instead?

The best tank will be the best tank that YOU CHOOSE TO BUILD, in other words, the fact that you research the Panther, doesn't mean that all your newly produced tanks become Panthers. You will still be producing the Pz IV. Also the variant can only become as good as the next generation model, so the Pz IV (variant max) will be exactly the same as a Panther "stock", and no need to throw your away your production efficiency for that.

 

[Haresus]

Yeah sure, I like an alternate-history game. But not a what-if UK turned fascist, thats just plain stupid and has nothing to do with alternate history, just fantasy. UFOs and aliens is just as likely, UK should never turn fascist.

Butterflies. If Hitler is a pretty nice guy and does not start WW2, but the Japs are invading Commonwealth territory and the British response is lacking or even disastrous.... Then the masses might look for stronger leadership. Especially if Hitler's planned policy of keeping up strong relations with the British is a success. Let us not forget that newspapers such as the Daily Mail (Daily Heil) praised Hitler prior to the war.

So, yeah, Butterflies. If things go ahistorical, then the possibility of the UK going fascist should be there. Even if it is just a Nazi puppet regime.

 

[rjohansen]

Amazing--you appear to believe in historical determinism. The USA, a representative republic, during this period had started becoming the fascist nation it today is; however, it didn't need to happen. I'm sure in the last 40-years many would have said this couldn't happen to the USA. In fact I have a much easier time accepting that Britain, a previous aristocratic dictatorship, could have an easier time slipping back into dictatorship. I do accept that in the time period a fascist dictatorship is highly unlikely, but some form of dictatorship (e.g., socialist dictatorship like the USSR) is not fantasy.

USA today, fascists? UK could have turn communist? What?

 

[Razor]

Thanks for another sober and solid diary Johan. I believe you have reached a good job allocation now

 

[panzerzombie]

The chances should be non-existent in my opinion.

But isnt this game supposed to be about WW2 and the period from 36-45? Not a what-if world that never would have happened? Do people really want a fantasy fiction game or a history game. Britain would never have had a civil war, that is just plain stupid and they never would have turned fascist either. Neither would the USA for instance. It stops beeing alternate history when things would never had happened, at least within the timeframe of the game, it becomes silly fantasy, could just as well throw in a few trolls, orcs and elves or even UFOs and alien invaders. And the game would be ruined in my opinion. At least make such silly changes optional.

Then YOU should play the game exactly like it happened in ww2, same tactics, same troops, same everything.........if you don´t its a FANTASY !.....duh

 

[rjohansen]

Then YOU should play the game exactly like it happened in ww2, same tactics, same troops, same everything.........if you don´t its a FANTASY !.....duh

It's a bit difference with alternate history and pure fantasy in my opinion. Of course the war will vary from game to game. But really, a fascist UK? That is just not realistic in any way.

 

[RVallant]

Butterflies. If Hitler is a pretty nice guy and does not start WW2, but the Japs are invading Commonwealth territory and the British response is lacking or even disastrous.... Then the masses might look for stronger leadership. Especially if Hitler's planned policy of keeping up strong relations with the British is a success. Let us not forget that newspapers such as the Daily Mail (Daily Heil) praised Hitler prior to the war.

So, yeah, Butterflies. If things go ahistorical, then the possibility of the UK going fascist should be there. Even if it is just a Nazi puppet regime.

I'm already looking forward to setting up the Anglo-German Alliance to rule the world. Something that seems impossible in HoI3.