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Since Europa Universalis was just released I think its time for the much awaited Hearts of Iron III

the europa universalis map is beuatiful and all I can think while playing the demo is how panzer tanks subs cruisers and the luftwaffe would look in such an updated envionment

also the game seems to run very fast and without the notorious slowdowns of hoi2
 
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Dark Scipio

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A better AI, more politicial and civil options, No generic manpower and IC (so persia wont be able to put everything into building tanks, or Soviets putting all IC in one day into Aircraft carriers)

Most important: A new research system: Combine the Researchsystem of Hearts of Iron I with the techteams of Hearts of Iron II. Its just silly that I can research 1945 infantry but I never developed better AT guns since 1939. And even if I did, the 1945 infantry wont be better.


Perfect: No provinces any more: Free movement, cities, factories etc...


And of course: 2D map and sprites.
 

unmerged(94130)

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Dark Scipio said:
Most important: A new research system: Combine the Researchsystem of Hearts of Iron I with the techteams of Hearts of Iron II. Its just silly that I can research 1945 infantry but I never developed better AT guns since 1939. And even if I did, the 1945 infantry wont be better.

And the specialization of teams.
So an aeronautical team won't be able to create a carrier prototype or an insdustrial team won't produce a tank.
Or creating new specialities, like naval_test_efficiency or weapons_test_efficiency.
 

Dark Scipio

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Kouak said:
And the specialization of teams.
So an aeronautical team won't be able to create a carrier prototype or an insdustrial team won't produce a tank.
Or creating new specialities, like naval_test_efficiency or weapons_test_efficiency.

I really dont think that one tech team should do it all alone. For example Infantry 19XX should be researched by a military officer (Mastein for example), but the small arms by Mauser, the guns by Krupp, the Logistics Vehicles by Opel etc. Just as an example.
 

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I posted this in a smaller thread first but maybe i can put it in this big thread too? :)

KeanoManu said:
Fredriko said:
More intressting and funny diplomacy and intelligence.

This is something i lack in all games of this types that exist today. Just look at the world today - there's much talk and big threats but then.. nothing. Look at Venezuela-Colombia or Israel-Iran/Lebanon/Syria, they're threatening eachother all the time but nothing more. In this types of games we can't do that but we can attack the other country without reasons all the time. It would be much funnier to play if we could play the war of words too.

Wars aren't always about winning land neither, in fact most wars today are more about replacing the government to one that are more friendly towards the attacking country and it's allies.

We need more options to use in the game.
I also agrees that it would be fun to play from before WWI into modern day (maybe to March 2003?). From there it would be "easy" for users to create the future. :)

Another thing that i may add are to include much more states that are availible to be liberated. We had Kosova for just some months ago and look at countries like Spain or Belgium. Russia, China, Iran & United States may also have some states that can be liberated if someone defeats them. It's not realistic that it will happen in the close future but who knows? We can't have to many options and choices. :)
Countries should also be able to break-up from inside without any foreign invasion. That's probably more realistic to what may happen to the countries i mentioned. And maybe that foreign forces may interupt when it happens (Yugoslavia). As you can see, i want more different types of war and diplomatics that what are availible now.
 

unmerged(94130)

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Dark Scipio said:
I really dont think that one tech team should do it all alone. For example Infantry 19XX should be researched by a military officer (Mastein for example), but the small arms by Mauser, the guns by Krupp, the Logistics Vehicles by Opel etc. Just as an example.

I agree.

But or me, my idea was the simplest solution for improving the HoI2 research system...may that HoI3 will bring a brand new system :)
 

Estland

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Using smaller units, like regiments and battalions.

Can change province landscape (if much factories, province becomes urban, etc).

Can mobilize units (you demobilize them and got more manpower, then mobilize without using IC).

More time, of course (from 1918 to 2018?).

Can play as Partisans (maybe if your nation is annexed, you can continue game as Partisans).
 

unmerged(74599)

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Dark Scipio said:
A better AI, more politicial and civil options, No generic manpower and IC (so persia wont be able to put everything into building tanks, or Soviets putting all IC in one day into Aircraft carriers)

Most important: A new research system: Combine the Researchsystem of Hearts of Iron I with the techteams of Hearts of Iron II. Its just silly that I can research 1945 infantry but I never developed better AT guns since 1939. And even if I did, the 1945 infantry wont be better.

Pretty simple to fix actually. You just modify the tech tree and make 1938 AT guns a prerquisite for 1939 Infantry, or whatever. I did this for some things so that tanks need the AT guns research prior to the tanks themselves.
 

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I reckon an early 20's start would be best... It would cover a multitude of pivotal events.. The Russian revolution/civil war, the Czech legions, the Polish/Soviet war, the three Silesian uprisings... The formation of Yugoslavia, the founding of the "Ustaše" (1929), the great depression in 1929.. The ability for the USA to remain interventionist by re-electing Woodrow Wilson, or otherwise continuing as per history.. Italy's transition to Fascism, Monarchy or some other psuedo reality, the pressing of Italian possesions in North Africa, Italy could later decide to or not to attack Abyssinia (Ethiopia, Eritrea & Somalia). The possibility of a third Balkan War (Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania & Turkey). The Greek rebellions in Pontus (northern coast of Anatolia), the Armenian/Georgian & Azerbajiani crisis... The Division of the M.E. To take on T.E. Lawence's suggestions or not, the Republic of Hatay, the French Syrian/Turkish war, the Graeco/Turkish war in Western Anatolia.. The failed implementation of the Treaty of Sèvres and later the materialisaiton of the Treaty of Lausanne..


Wow, so much stuff to do... Would be the BEST starting period!
 

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Fluid lines....

Its been mentioned already but I want to add my support for it.

I too would love to see the province system gone as well, replaced with a fluid border/front line.

Or, keep the province system but incorporate a fluid line system where a province could be co-occupied/owned while at war or during battles. If you're attacking and you're winning the front line would be continually moving to represent your progress.

Similar to how Civ IV has its "fluid" borders determined by several factors only its done solely for battles in the case of HOI3.

If the game does get done, it will most likely be 3-D which I would think would make this easier to do?
 

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I expect any new HOI game to look exactly like Rome and EU3 from a gameplay perspective. In other words, 3D game with provinces.
 

unmerged(35344)

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If hoi3 is to impress me it needs a completely new or heavily upgraded game-engine. Take naval battles as an example: they are a total compromise due to the shortcoming of the current engine (weird cv-bb battles, weird subs etc).
I could make a huge list, but its shortcomings, inadequacies and potential solutions have been brought up and discussed many times during hoi's existence. I just hope Paradox have listened...

But my fear is Paradox will continue on adding pointless gimmicks like they with DD instead of improving and expanding the base-concept to make hoi (3) more real.

Time will tell, I am no blind believer but a hopeless "hopetimist"
 

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hellfish6 said:
I expect any new HOI game to look exactly like Rome and EU3 from a gameplay perspective. In other words, 3D game with provinces.

That would be a very big mistake IMO. The processing power should be used to calculate a province-less battlefield, not eye candy - it's not what people want.
[EDIT] Though with graphics cards taking most of the burden off the hands of the CPU I don't think it statement is really as relevant now.[/EDIT] And it can be done and has already been done: Airborne Assault doesn't use provinces, just a 2D vector kind of map that reads off the terrain under it.

I'm aware I'm preaching to the converted here. I was reading this thread to compile my own ideas and photoshop jobs but I see you've done a pretty impressive job so far...
 
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hellfish6

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I would be a huge mistake, I think, but that's never stopped game companies in the past. Lots of games, lots of sequels especially, go down that road of graphics over gameplay (or graphics at the expense of gameplay) and many of them fail miserably. It's a lot easier to have an artist make sprites than it is to have a programmer/designer figure out a good way of using those sprites.
 

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hellfish6 said:
I would be a huge mistake, I think, but that's never stopped game companies in the past. Lots of games, lots of sequels especially, go down that road of graphics over gameplay (or graphics at the expense of gameplay) and many of them fail miserably. It's a lot easier to have an artist make sprites than it is to have a programmer/designer figure out a good way of using those sprites.

I hear ya. With the Total War series being the point in case I think. It's still good fun, but many mistakes were made in Medieval 2, which are relevant to some people's comments here.
The comments I'm referring to are "I want more x", whether that be provinces, time range, things to research. The list goes on. Medieval 2 did this with it's agents (merchants princesses, etc) leaving the player with a terrible micromanagement situation. Meanwhile, the core of the game was neglected, the battle engine still not having evolved to a state where 'proper' battles can be fought. Fighting while giving ground? Nope :)
Don't mean to be too OT here, but bear with me....I just hope Paradox can make the correct decisions in this area and knows that their audience wants an improved game that allows them a better way of fighting war. I and many others do not want exactly the same game with a 3D map that will add nothing (I actually think a 3D map takes away from the authentic feel [EDIT] I've no problem with a 3D map per se, but I like the authentic WW2 map feel. However, the map is a the main source of our information and must be used efficiently for this purpose and an old style map probably isn't the best way to do this[/EDIT]). Eye candy is not why we play - I use counters.
HoI2 is a good game, but has some very large flaws, which I'll flesh out in a mo, and I hope that Johan and Co can take the series into new territory if they make a HoI3.
I may start another thread with my ideas proper, but some of the biggest things that need to be addressed are:

  • Information management; whether this be unit lists, provinces (which must go), commanders and extends to things like supply efficiency. For example, there should be a map overlay showing arrows drawn from supply depots to units and every stop in between. The thickness of the arrow represents % of supplies 'getting through'. This means that at a glance you can see where supplies are getting stopped. This is just s simple example of an at a glance information dissemination which should be everywhere in such a complex game. Information should be clear, concise, easy to access and relevant.
  • Unit management. I can't begin to add up the time lost getting RSI by clicking through unit lists. This also links into why I hate the province system; what I always end up with is a mass of divisions in provinces, especially after a battle, with absolutely no structure whatsoever. Unless your units are grouped into corps stacks or army stacks then there's no way to keep them together - but then they have to be in the same province. It's a hugely unsatisfactory system to represent this kind of mass warfare IMO. So yes, a province-less battlefield is obviously the way to go, but coupled with that we need some sort of organizational system to make full use of such a feature. What I'm suggested is basically the hierarchical system that is in Airborne Assault, which makes sense as it's basically just the structure of forces themselves. I'm probably being incoherent, so I'll try to attach a picture



Right, the image above is pretty obvious, but this is what I think the game should look like (forgive it's crudeness I'm not on my photoshop computer). This shows the structure of your forces, what units are connected to what command. Units can't just wander off (as happened to me many times on the Eastern front when my allies took control over their exp. forces they'd lent me and decided to take them for a walk leaving a gaping hole in my lines) as they are part of this structure.
Now here's the cool part, totally stolen from Airborne Assault but hey, if I clicked on the corps (xxx) and tell it to move, then it'll move. No surprise there. But if I clicked on the icon for one of the armies (xxxx) and told it to move it would execute a 'plan' to fulfill whatever orders I give it (move in this case) and issue orders to it's subordinates to execute that plan. This goes for any unit in the entire hierarchy. I can click on an army group if I wish and tell it to move to the interior of Russia. The general in charge, Bock in this case (with all his traits) will then execute that plan to the best of his ability and organize all his subordinate units to make it happen.
Also, the mouse wheel will scroll the map in or out and the level of detail that the map displays is relevant to your zoom level. If I were to zoom in on the map above I would eventually be able to see divisions and meddle with them if I desired (Hitler anyone? :D).
Like I said this kind of thing is possible, has been done in other games (organization in Airborne Assault and level of detail zoom in Supreme Commander to name but two) but if there is to be another HoI it absolutely needs this kind of interface so you can mange things properly and avoid the click-fest.
Sorry this turned into a rather long post, I was going to save some of this for my own thread, but hey :) I do not want to see the same game again. Paradox, you must innovate and you're smart enough to do so. Lot's of ideas from people on this board such as hellfish6 show the kind of innovation needed and with your own development skill the next HoI could be an astounding product.
 
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LaDoncella

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In my opinion, the province system should be keep. (as mentioned [new:rome, medieval2]TotalWar system requires an stupid amount of micromanagement)

But instead of static provinces (province=stalingrad owner=URSS)
it should be dynamic that shows the progress of contenders(province=stalingrad owners=URSS,90% Germany,10%) and depending of the owners of the adjacent provinces its shown on the map
 

Luka

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Thanks hellfish :)
I've got plenty more ideas of how to implement it too. I've done some programming in my time in a variety of languages and recently finished a computer program designed to deal with huge masses of data. I implemented many algorithms to deal with huge data sets and there are very clever things that can be done nowadays.
I've read some of the other threads and people seem to take issue with a province-less system by saying you wont know where the front line is, how will you know when troops are out of supply, terrain, etc. I will explain the way this will be calculated:
  • Terrain
    This will be calculated by simply looking at the terrain on the map underneath the division. Simple enough, though a terrain map at the resolution required of the whole world may be a bit large and suck up a lot of memory if it is a bitmap or something. It could be vector based (i.e. a certain terrain could be enclosed in a n-sided polygon defined by n 2D points), algorithms could then use a K-D tree to see what divisions are on what terrain - or any other mappable feature. This should be quite quick to calculate in 2D.
  • Front Line
    This can be calculated using plenty of methods. Two that spring to mind are level sets and any fast marching method. These can take the location of our units and construct a smooth flowing border around them, it's not really a problem. This could also be used to adhere the front to places like rivers.
    Also some have asked how certain things like penalties can be worked out as we'd have no explicit boolean states of attacking and defending. Well, how does this work in real life? If there is an enemy unit between you and your objective, then you must attack that unit in order to reach your objective on the path chosen. This also implies that objectives should be point locations or areas - bridges, towns, junctions - just like in real life. Similarly for rivers - if there is one between you and your objective, you must cross it. Simple as that.
  • Supply
    If objectives are towns, cities, junctions, etc, then the roads that connect them are the supply line. Just like in real life (see where I'm going here?:D). Again, there exist many efficient algorithms at working out this supply line. The 'traveling salesman' is a very popular maths problem and there's a ton of literature on it. Anyway, one could take this further; I've recent read a book on the Great War by John Keegan and he mentions how the schlieffen plan in the North was hindered by the capacity of roads, there was simply not enough roads to carry the required amount of troops. So a simple capacity could be built into the roads, multiple routes could be found and so on.
    Back to supply, which is quite simple in this regard as it's the same as the current system, just via roads and rail system; if the computer can trace a route from a supply depot (which should be placed on the map by you or the AI) to your unit through friendly territory then it is considered in supply. Any destruction of supplies along the way will be shown graphically in the supply mapmode...

    Again, sorry for the crude image, but it demonstrates the need for a kind of visual 'at a glance' information so desperately needed in a game like this - and this is only one example of it. This kind of game should be prolific with it. You can look at your entire theatre of war (from which detail level you'll be able to see army groups only) and instantly be able to see on which front your supply situation requires your attention. You then zoom into the appropriate level, locate the cause of the issue and deal with it.
    I could go on...and maybe will :)
 

hellfish6

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What might be useful is little graphical representations of combat actions - along the front line (to signify intensity and directions of attack) and along the supply lines, where you'd see where your supply lines were being attacked (assuming that enemy partisans/air raids were hidden by fog of war). Could be something as simple as a little explosion to show that ground combat was occurring, a periscope to show where a suspected enemy sub was torpedoing your supply lines, or a dive bomber to show where enemy air strikes were affecting you.

Kind of similar to your idea, I always thought it would be better from a wargamer's perspective anyway, to remove air units entirely. At least as they exist now.

In a provinceless combat system, you'd theoretically be able to build airbases wherever you want to. Paris, instead of having a province air value of, say, 6, could instead have five airbases of varying size - size 1 being the equivalent of a dirt strip with basic services to a size 10, a large multi-runway, extended runway length airbase with extensive maintenance and service capabilities.

You can base air units at these air bases. Instead of working like they do now, a whole unit representing at least 100 aircraft taking off and attacking very randomly and very unrealistically, you'd instead have a combat radius attached to the airbase. An airbase with a unit equipped with long range P-51s would have a larger combat radius than an airbase that had P-36 interceptors based at it.

OK... let me explain this fully a little more clearly.

1. You have a provinceless combat system. Because of this, you can build airbases anywhere you want on the map.

2. You can build your own air units (see my sig for further info on that)

3. The air units you build are deployed to airbases (and can be redeployed to other air bases).

4. Once deployed, the air units begin performing air operations. Of course, this is dependent on org/morale/supply levels like now.

5. Air units are given a combat radius. This combat radius is proportional - if your air unit has one fighter squadron with a 500km combat radius and 10 interceptor squadrons with 200km radii, the air unit's total combat radius will be 500km, but the strength/effects of that combat radius will be much higher at 200km than it would at 500km.

6. Air units can attack every enemy unit within it's combat radius. That doesn't mean that they will, per se, but they'll have a %chance to. When an enemy division enters a combat radius, the proportional strength of the air unit at the relevant distance from the air base will determine if the enemy unit is detected by the friendly air unit, how effective any strikes are on that enemy unit, etc.

7. Air-to-air combat occurs when combat radii of enemy forces overlap.

8. You can order air units to attack specific enemy targets (other airbases, which would possibly damage any enemy air unit based there, or bridges, cities, factories, divisions, etc). Combat will continue until the air unit is depleted (org, morale, supply or strength) or until their mission is complete (bridge destroyed, enemy division moved out of combat radius, etc). Once the combat is over, the unit will become idle (if org, morale, strength or supply is depleted) or return to their default mission (interceptors will intercept, multirole fighters will conduct air and ground attacks, tactical bombers will go after enemy units/supply lines, strategic bombers will bomb enemy installations within their respective combat radii).

Does it make sense? It's late at night here and I've been up for 18 hours.

This is an old picture I made, but it kind of helps to illustrate the point. At some time when I'm more conscious, I'll fire up MS paint and represent this better visually.

jamaica2fn8.gif
 

Luka

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Makes perfect sense. Since HoI1 I've thought that having air forces represented as a similar individual entities to ground units was not the correct way to represent this era's aerial warfare. I have a programme called Battlefield which goes through every major WW2 battle. Nigh on every time air power is mentioned and analyzed it is talked about in terms of air cover, precisely as you are describing it here. This was particularly evident in the war against the U-Boats and the mid-Atlantic air gap where a small portion of the atlantic has no air cover resulting in losses in that region.
What irks me about the current system again, is the micromanagement involved. As so many have pointed out this is a grand strategy game, if I've build enough fighters for air cover on the Eastern front for ecample, then they should be used appropriately regardless of whether I give them a specific mission or not. Ground units kind of do this alrady - they will defend themselves if attacked, but I do not want to loose an entire air stack because I didn't tell them explicitly to move away from a province that was about to be captured by the Russians.
This is the kind of behavior needed that I was referring to in my earlier post. In the previous pictures, the guy at the top of that structure, Bock in this case, can make decisions for himself. If he needs to pull back, he'll pull back but the player always has the option to override and issue explicit orders.
So yes, the air cover idea is a very good one. I've come up with a few ideas about how to have this system yet retain the ability to direct attacks against specific targets if one wishes;
This just shows the usual radii of aircraft action from an airbase near the front.


Using a few simple mouse clicks you can determine if the stack is covering a large area to intercept intruders, or if you wish them to attack a certain area beyond the immediate front line and any situation in between.


Again, this is stuff that I'm just coming up with off the top of my head. If Paradox make another game, this kind of command and control ability should be well thought out and executed. I love you guys, but the HoI games were anything but :)
 
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