Hearts of Iron 1 was an expensive, bug-ridden, loss-making failure, and I'm okay with that.

[ruzen]

The threads topic is the definition of Zealus Paradox Fans and Paradox is getting so much space and exploiting peoples feelings.

 

[aruon]

Many people may not know this, but in the old days, Paradox was not their own publisher. They used Strategy First as a publisher.

To give you an idea of how that relationship ended, Paradox started their own publishing because that was where the money was. And when they finally ended their contract with Strategy First, they also patched games to remove the DRM Strategy First made them put in the games. (And people wonder why I like this group of folks...)

heh, since you mentioned Strategy First, i looked them up on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_First

wooooooooow. what a bunch of greedy conniving bastards. it's a good thing PI broke them off before they were run into the ground. seriously SF even screwed over Stardock- now another major publisher, as well as Battlegoat Studios before they made PI their publisher. and apparently they're still up to no good.

 

[aruon]

The threads topic is the definition of Zealus Paradox Fans and Paradox is getting so much space and exploiting peoples feelings.

oh great you again.

first off, it spelled "zealous". everytime i see this, it peeves me like crazy.

secondly, what the hell is your problem? every time i see a post of yours, it's always about how PDS fans are mindless sheep or about how PI are just stealing people's money or otherwise exploiting them while you conveniently don't give any kind of validation as to why.

 

[Fonz]

I've only started PDS games since HOI3 and CK2, so I don't know too much about PDS back in 2003. But damn, in 13 years they went from 7 devs working their asses off on an unpopular WW2 game to a friggin publisher that's going to release Stellaris, HOI4 and more updates for EU4 with full on art and sound teams.

If only my money grows at that rate

 

[fredgiblet]

Im not sure i totally agree with the not AAA titles anymore. I've played several AAA titles recently and id say the quality mark has been surpassed as of late by PDS's games.

Thing is most AAA games are FPS/RTS's and PDS's games are not really that sort of game. Id say their games are AAA for the type of games they make. Your not going to see many AAA studios pushing back a game for more than a year just because they aren't happy with it. Maybe Blizzard or Valve but thats about it.

They may be AAA for grand strats, but grand strats aren't a AAA niche.It's like saying a champion lawn bowling team are world class athletes, they may be the best lawn bowlers int he world, but as athletes they don't measure up to the major league players.

I love HoI, but 2 and 3 are not AAA games by any reasonable definition.

 

[GhengisKhan]

but I doubt anyone would disagree with me that having the full experience for modern Pdox games will go deeper into your wallet than any crappy AAA title like battlefield and it's DLC ever would.

Thats pretty untrue nowadays. WIth my battlefront example. I paid 60 for the game and they wanted another 50 for the season pass which will include only 4 DLC packs. This looks like this will be true with Fallout 4 as well. I think that is going to be the norm now not the exception. Everyone aims to make 50 to 100 dollars worth of DLC a year for you now.

 

[RELee]

I don't know what it is that people expect out of a Paradox game. Maybe I enjoy them so much because when I was growing up hitting each other with a stick was about all we had to entertain ourselves with.

I've played plenty of games with lousy AI's and had fun. When I was a budding teen in Backwoods USA I quite often played chess games by myself because I didn't have others around who played chess. Had plenty of opponents for a game of checkers though.

If you totally lack imagination, then I can see why you get annoyed with Paradox.

I bought GalCiv because reviews said it has the best AI of any 4x space game, and yet I still prefer the old game of Stars! which had no AI to speak of.

To each his own. I have no problems with people who provide constructive criticism, but I see more and more people who can't type two sentences without insulting someone any more, whether it be the fans of Paradox or Paradox itself. Speaks volumes about your own self-worth.

I've been hanging out here since Johan and company couldn't afford to have me. I think I'll stick around a while longer.

 

[Maizel]

Thats pretty untrue nowadays. WIth my battlefront example. I paid 60 for the game and they wanted another 50 for the season pass which will include only 4 DLC packs. This looks like this will be true with Fallout 4 as well. I think that is going to be the norm now not the exception. Everyone aims to make 50 to 100 dollars worth of DLC a year for you now.

I think Fallout 4;s is going to be 80, or 60 depending if you got the season pass. But in any case. I think major DLC for CK2 at release price alone has passed the €100 mark quite some time ago. Let alone all the cosmetic stuff.

 

[GhengisKhan]

They may be AAA for grand strats, but grand strats aren't a AAA niche.It's like saying a champion lawn bowling team are world class athletes, they may be the best lawn bowlers int he world, but as athletes they don't measure up to the major league players.

I love HoI, but 2 and 3 are not AAA games by any reasonable definition.

Well looking up the definition of AAA its either a hug game or marketing budget OR critical acclaim. Id say EU 4 might hit that. EU4 sold extremely well also. Depends on what definition your using for reasonable.

 

[GhengisKhan]

I think Fallout 4;s is going to be 80, or 60 depending if you got the season pass. But in any case. I think major DLC for CK2 at release price alone has passed the €100 mark quite some time ago. Let alone all the cosmetic stuff.

Correct but how long has CK 2 been out now? I bet when one of those titles has been out that long their DLC might equal that as welll. If they stand that long. Most FPS's don't.

 

[aruon]

I've only started PDS games since HOI3 and CK2, so I don't know too much about PDS back in 2003. But damn, in 13 years they went from 7 devs working their asses off on an unpopular WW2 game to a friggin publisher that's going to release Stellaris, HOI4 and more updates for EU4 with full on art and sound teams.

If only my money grows at that rate

hey, they even founded GamerGate before steam came along. so PI even beat Valve to being the first company to create a digital marketplace.

 

[safe-keeper]

The AI does get really frustrating sometimes, though. EU4 can be pretty irritating when you're in a war where you depend on your allies, as in "hey, we've got 14 000 men and you've got 12 000 men, and the enemy army is only 11 000, let's crush them togeth... wait, where are you going, why are you taking your army back into your own territory?!" . You've just got to look past that and enjoy the game for its good sides, I guess.

It's like Company of Heroes, which can be so frustrating it makes me want to tear my hair out, but at the same time can be so much fun that I forgive it for its shortcomings and quirks.

I bought GalCiv because reviews said it has the best AI of any 4x space game, and yet I still prefer the old game of Stars! which had no AI to speak of.

Of course you do, it's the best one out there :3 .

 

[Ostheim]

I agree with that. But AAA doesn't necessarily mean quality. Just like Big budget films can be much worse than independent productions.

€40 seems a fair price to me, and is also one of the reasons I put up with the insane amount of DLC Pdox pumps out. Most of it is good stuff, but I doubt anyone would disagree with me that having the full experience for modern Pdox games will go deeper into your wallet than any crappy AAA title like battlefield and it's DLC ever would.

Raising the basegame price to 60 bucks, knowing that you will most likely 'have' to spend at least a hundred more bucks for the DLC that you want, will put the whole business model in a whole other light, even if it is only 20 bucks off from the total.

Good points, I doubt HOI4 will have as much DLC as CK2 or EU4. I kind of hope it does though because I'm used to it now, and in the end if Paradox is motivated that means ultimately more content and flavor to extend the life of this game for us.

 

[Amaror]

Hang on, why wouldn't it cost $60? I fully expect it to be $60 just like every other AAA game out there. It should be at least $50 IMHO. You think Paradox games are still categorized as unpolished "indie" like games that they used to be?

Because Paradox titles aren't AAA titles. Yes, they are really really good, but the title AAA isn't about Quality, at least not in most peoples definition.
It's more about high production values and highly polished graphics. That's not really telling about quality though. Creative Assembly is what I would call a Grand Strategy AAA company and I am sure glad that Paradox isn't really like them.
Speaking about money I don't think 60 dollars would be a good prize for a paradox game. I would most likely still buy it, but the majourity of your customers won't be zealous fans of your products, even if your as niche as paradox, and they will think twice about buying a paradox game.
If you look at it you would have two big strategy titles, Total War: Warhammer and HoI or Stellaris, next to each other. Both costing the same, a normal strategy fan that's not predisposed towards either franchise will most likely pick up Total War: Warhammer. Let's not kid ourselves here, in terms of presentation with videos and screenshots paradox games aren't really up to par with creative assembly games no matter how superiour I think they are.
And now we have the situation were paradox titles will not only be competing with creative assembly, but also with themselves given how closely HoI and Stellaris will release. Hell, I am a huge paradox fan and I might not even buy HoI, though that's entirely dependent on whether they geoblock it or not.

 

[Gunburned]

I think part of success is being able to try new things, making mistakes along the way.
And Paradox showing such great potential in proving their able to continue on , fix and improve those mistakes.
This is what sets them apart from many others that failed.

 

[FOARP]

Plenty of games ask 60$ for base price, and more $$ on top for season pass or day1 DLC. And people still buy them.

I started gaming back when the most expensive game you could buy was £9.99 from Woolworths and came on two or three cassette-tapes. Plugging that into an inflation calculator tells me that it would cost £26.40 in today's money (or ~38 US$ at today's exchange-rate). That's what an un-expanded game is worth to me and I still haven't seen any game where there was a real obvious reason why it should cost more other than niche appeal (e.g., Matrix games).

DLC is a different matter since you can identify what the additional content you're getting is.

 

[RELee]

Of course you do, it's the best one out there :3 .

I've always knowed I had good taste.

 

[fredgiblet]

Thats pretty untrue nowadays. WIth my battlefront example. I paid 60 for the game and they wanted another 50 for the season pass which will include only 4 DLC packs. This looks like this will be true with Fallout 4 as well. I think that is going to be the norm now not the exception. Everyone aims to make 50 to 100 dollars worth of DLC a year for you now.

Yep. Because game prices have stayed static while costs and inflation have gone up. The only place they're gaining is on distribution with direct download options, everywhere else it's getting more expensive. If you don't want that you'll have to accept inflation and pony up $70-80 for the base game.

Personally I'm OK with it as long as the extra content is good. Like the Fallout expansions or the HoI 3 add-ons. CK2 is over the line for me, but it doesn't help that I'm not a huge fan of the game itself. Train Simulator is kind of ridiculous until you realize that the average player will probably only snag a couple of trains that they particularly like.

I bought GalCiv because reviews said it has the best AI of any 4x space game, and yet I still prefer the old game of Stars! which had no AI to speak of.

Still waiting for Stars! Supernova.

Well looking up the definition of AAA its either a hug game or marketing budget OR critical acclaim. Id say EU 4 might hit that. EU4 sold extremely well also. Depends on what definition your using for reasonable.

Extremely well for Paradox? Or extremely well compared to AAA games like Fallout or CoD? I'm betting on the former.

 

[GhengisKhan]

Extremely well for Paradox? Or extremely well compared to AAA games like Fallout or CoD? I'm betting on the former.

Currently EU4 is just under a million on steam spy and Fallout 4 just under 3 million. Compare that to how much each cost to make and take the fact that EU IV is a niche game and probably 1/1000 the promotion budget ( probably even lower than that ) id say extremely well by any standard.

The games PDS make also have a much longer lifespan (for me anyway) than these FPS games also. Fallout 4 was fun but i lost interest after only 502 hours. I haven't started it in over a month. I usually play PDS game for a very long time.

 

[Secret Master]

Fallout 4 was fun but i lost interest after only 502 hours.

I understand your point, but even 502 hours is pretty good for some high end games advertised on American television. There are plenty of people who might only get 200 hours out of Fallout or COD, and then move on to something else.