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DominusNovus

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shutupandtakemymoneyfry.jpg


Seriously though, Heart of Darkness has been an excellent expansion to an already excellent game. Here's hoping for more in the near future!

As a recent new-comer to Victoria 2 (the crisis system really sold me on buying V2) and since I agree with DominusNovus' sentiment:



EDIT: Augh! Ninja'd! XD

Thank you, both.

On a more serious note, I'm very glad that HoD sold well enough to encourage the idea of future expansions for Vicky2.
 
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mrwrong

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As a new user of this game i'm mixed ....... On the one hand I like the fact that it's not as war based as HOI ... but on the other hand when it does come time for war , I find the VIC 2 war system to be lacking ... it really doesn't do much to draw me in , not like in HOI where I have to figure how many of each units I need to produce , where they should be sent etc. ... the HOI units just feel so much more REAL and alive compared to the VIC military system ...

If combat could be improved , maybe having a greater selection of units besides the generic type from EU that would go a long way ... ( Hint in HOI3 , when you click on a unit for information there's at least a picture of it )
 

KPJ

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(only have read the OP)

I'm very happy for your success with this expansion. I think Victoria 2 is probably the best of the PDS franchises for the reasons you outlined; it has a more loyal and 'hardcore' fanbase that want substantive changes and appreciate the things like AI improvements which "don't sell well on the box." You keep expanding, we'll keep buying :)

quick edit:
While you're reading, maybe you'd be interested in an idea that could integrate well with the election improvement idea you outlined above.

What about adding personalities and reputations to political parties? Having some faces attached to the parties, with as much detail as generals (i.e. random name from a database that already exists, random portrait based on culture, plus a few newly designed political traits), possibly even interacting with generals, would add a lot to the political game. A new party leader can spell the end for a strong party, or a particular leader can never get elected again after that disastrous war. The Socialist leader could have a feud with the Communist leader and prevent a coalition between those parties. The Reactionary party could be lead by a general (X has entered politics! No longer available as a general) who had gained a lot prestige in that last war.
 

dz_duck

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As a new user of this game i'm mixed ....... On the one hand I like the fact that it's not as war based as HOI ... but on the other hand when it does come time for war , I find the VIC 2 war system to be lacking ... it really doesn't do much to draw me in , not like in HOI where I have to figure how many of each units I need to produce , where they should be sent etc. ... the HOI units just feel so much more REAL and alive compared to the VIC military system ...

If combat could be improved , maybe having a greater selection of units besides the generic type from EU that would go a long way ... ( Hint in HOI3 , when you click on a unit for information there's at least a picture of it )

The combat system could use a lot of work. It's a very difficult thing they have to model, though. The warfare in this period goes from Napoleon/ACW style, through trench warfare, into the beginnings of blitzkrieg. How the heck do you model all of that in one system? I don't want to gripe too much, so yeah, here's to an improved combat system if there's another expansion.

Now I'm just waiting to be reunited with my computer so that I can actually play HoD (dang laptop with Intel integrated video:sad:).
 

lizardo

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Well, it's good to see that V2 is recognized as part of the franchise continuum and not a just a one off.

- Naval changes, a good improvement as far as it goes. Could have been better still.
- Newspaper. Fluff. Someone should have had the presence of mind to say no, do something useful.
- Colonization, nice but not much of a change from all previous colonization schemes.
- Crisis system. Interesting, looks like some cross pollination from Pride of Nations has been happening. Be more interesting if the player could initiate a crisis.

-------------

Ships live in a hostile environment and you don't need to rust away the whole hull to sink one, you just need a hole in the right place and the sea does the rest. Ships also have critical systems such as guns, fuel, ammunition, supplies, crew, propulsion. As these systems fail the ship, while largely whole, becomes incapable of performing critical tasks. Read about the sinking of the Bismark and it's sister ship and you can appreciate this.

Speaking of rust, ships should rarely sink at sea from rust or wood worms, the crew on board does work to maintain things, that's part of the maintenance cost. They can become more costly to maintain.

The game still magically upgrades ships (and other military units). This has to end. It's necessary to go back to the HoI system with a hull and attached features that can upgrade, at a cost. Upgrades should at least require the ship to be docked and likely at a shipyard.

Ships need to be crewed from the population, and when battles are resolved casualties counted and war weariness affected.

The crew needs to get experience, not the hull. That is, you should be able to move an experience crew to a new ship.

Naval battles should be able to occur on navigable rivers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mobile_Bay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Island_Number_Ten

Ships should be able to engage in coastal land battles (like it was in V1 and HoI), target forts and towns and be targeted by land artillery. And airplanes.

I hope that the maintenance cost featured in the ship description is an estimate of what is paid for resources, not just money that vaporizes.

Building and upgrading ships should require pops who are paid to do this.

It's good that ship building ports have been limited and made appropriately costly. It would have been better if geographic conditions were the limiting factor for port location and size instead of arbitrarily assigning one to a state. The time wasted developing the 'newspaper' could have been devoted to this. Then you have a meaningful reason for ports to be where they are and a rational understanding of why some places do better than others.

It makes the game more meaningful when you use rational means instead of random means.

-------

Instead of the newspaper, it would have been much nicer if someone had gone through the program and removed all of those hateful dialog boxes that demand that we acknowledge such amazingly trivial things such as "moralists have enhance morality" (or something like that), "(state) is electrified" etc. It's like a club beating the game purchaser again and again and again and again. Some pathological narcissist did this to us, please kill it.

--------

The 'new' colonization system seems just a rehash of all the earlier ones. The colonization points are, like their diplomatic point cousins, kind of lame and gamey. It fails also to allow the player to do things that would be reasonable to do because of the gamey nature arbitrary limits are needed to contain it.

As example of the contradiction, the US can't colonize in Africa but it somehow already has a thriving colony there. What, they forgot how as soon as they did it?

What's needed is a better system that gives the player 'economic' choices. That is, the player must manage scarcity of resources to accomplish his goals. If his goal is colonization it comes at the cost of other opportunities.

The best way to do this is to utilize leaders from the leader pool, pops, and resources. Form organizations (like brigades or factories) that are funded and tasked to colonize. They can be funded from investors or the government, or both.

The game needs to develop a wider range of roles for leaders and this is one. If you look at the wikkipedia entry for the Liberia foundation you find leaders. Those leaders also served in other roles such as politicians, military officers and industrialists.

The same guy who went and established the Liberian colony was responsible for finding and promoting the guy who developed the Monitor for the North.

In battle, colonization, diplomacy, and research, leaders are necessary. And having to allocate scarce leaders is a much better scheme to do things that to wait for colony points or diplomatic points.

Further, this would allow players to plan and implement goals (fire and forget) rather than wait for bells to ring to pounce on the pellet lever.

Money should go to leaders and pops to pay for their efforts. Always.

----

Instead of wasting efforts on a 'newspaper' that I have to click to learn things I already knew or don't really care about, why not develop a system to pay pops to construct everything that is built in the game.:

-

From factories to the Panama Canal, the player presently throws money up in the air and it magically transforms into a factory or canal. Why not have staffed services that are paid to perform these tasks. And who recruit or dragoon foreign workers if none are locally available.

Have a system of work related attrition for jobs. Some jobs are as dangerous as battle.

-

Have female pops, and age groups for all pops. Then issues of fertility can be made interesting.

-

Presently factories are randomly located. This is inane. there are geographic and marketing reasons why factories locate. As example most textiles located in the New England area instead of the South because of water power. But Vicky doesn't recognized the existence of these resources.

-

Stop randomly upgrading states with nonsensical upgrades. The player should pay for and build these. When you get mining improvements in a farm RGO and department stores in the desert, the game loses its verisimilitude. You begin to feel that you are wasting your time doing something stupid.

-

Create a logistical system, this also explains why things are where they are and confers a cost on moving your dirt around. Strategic movement should be reinstated and made part of this system, competing with goods movemen t. It can be pretty abstracted, but there needs to be one and it should reflect the cost of different modes of transport.

-

Have separate Naval and Land military tabs. Really. Please. V1 retained some military management from HoI. Meager as it was it was at least something. V2 dispensed with even that minimal functionality in favor of total chaos. In a rare moment of lucidity and mild chagrin we were given 'rally points'. Which, though not solving the problem, at least acknowledged the burden placed upon the player of managing hoards of randomly placed units.

If you have separate naval and land military tabs, you then have the screen real estate for the player to design what his armies/fleets should look like (what kinds of units they should contain) at which point all created or unassigned units could move to (or strategically move to if strategic movement is reinstated) an appropriate army and with minimal stress a player can have all his armies/fleets composed exactly as he wants in a proactive way. You could even filter for the type of leader you want and assign a base of operation.

People work best when they can plan and implement, not when they have to play whack-a-mole or press a lever for a food pellet on command.

-

Restore the linking feature of the ledger. The ledger keeps shrinking and losing functions.

----------

Again, all things that could have been addressed with the resources that were wasted on a feature that tells the player everything he already knew happened last month, for which he must take time out of the game to click and read (or they pile up).
 
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unmerged(624310)

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I did notice the AI got a lot less retarded in many ways, which is awesome, but it still drops the ball big time in certain ways.

Capitalist AI's still like to build a factory for an advanced product before you own factories for the base goods. Presumably they decided there's a good margin on the advanced product, but the factory promptly goes under because it can't get its supplies. They've no concept of a supply chain.

The Diplo AI is too persistent. I spend the entire game banning the USA from Mexico (I like to hold Mexico in sphere to keep the Americans from moving west), It happens like clock work, every time the ban expires I see them starting to influence again and I ban them again. The AI needs to learn when to give up. Retrying every so often is good behavior, my priorities may have changed, I may be dealing with somebody else, but they are just too on the ball about it. Its a diplomatic game of whack a mole I can't lose (I regen more than enough influence to keep them out during the ban period), but they never just cut their losses and try somewhere else, and its just tedious and not fun, worse its all the USA does. It has to focus points to get anywhere vs me since I'm already at 100 influence it needs to outspend me to go up, and never seems to try and do something else with its influence when I ban them, they just sit around waiting for another shot at Mexico.

Naval Invasions are still kind of flaky, They do them more often now sure, but now they'll do them when its a bad idea. I'll have the AI uncover its homeland to go ship an army out to Micronesia or Cyprus, or some other inconsequential location. I once invaded Dai Nam and they promptly stuck their entire army including reserves in a boat and made a b-line for Cyprus. Needless to say I sank the transports, blockaded Cyprus, and then occupied their homelands without being contested. Sure they had Cyprus locked down, but what did I care, didn't stop them from getting annexed.

Need to give the AI the ability to bribe me to join its side in a crisis. I'm guessing the AI's hatred of picking up infamy is preventing it from considering offering a bribe as good option. Possibly combine with some kind of Standing offer/counter offer system. AI offers me a cut down to size I say no, I'd rather have territory, that kind of thing. Relative standings in determining who the AI wants to join needs to be less important, who's getting weakened should be a large consideration. France may hate my guts, but they have a vested interest in keeping Russia strong as a Ally/Balance against Germany. Likewise they should love the idea of of any thing that separates nations from Germany no matter their relation with other backers. Who's losing territory should be far more important than relationships to other backers.
 

BBBD316

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Speaking as someone who played and mildly enjoyed Vicky 1, this game is so much more accessible, whilst not getting rid of all the differences compared to EU and HOI series.

I would say that any extra depth you can add would always be appreciated.

1. Idealogical non-core rebels should be able to release their homeland.
2. A NF to try to get capitalists to build a factory we need, barrels and telephones I am looking at you.
3. Following on from TypoNinja, infamy from bribing other GP's into support you in a crisis should be charged at GW rates after they are invented to stimulate the GP's jockeying for position.
4. I like the idea of politicans being like generals, I would love to be able to support a great leader to a party that would not normally be able to be voted in and ushering in a new age for the party.

But I must stress I really love the game and thank you all for your hard work.
 

FOARP

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As a new user of this game i'm mixed ....... On the one hand I like the fact that it's not as war based as HOI ... but on the other hand when it does come time for war , I find the VIC 2 war system to be lacking ... it really doesn't do much to draw me in , not like in HOI where I have to figure how many of each units I need to produce , where they should be sent etc. ... the HOI units just feel so much more REAL and alive compared to the VIC military system ...

If combat could be improved , maybe having a greater selection of units besides the generic type from EU that would go a long way ... ( Hint in HOI3 , when you click on a unit for information there's at least a picture of it )

You, I, and probably the majority of Vicky 2 players feel this way. The combat model is just unsatisfactory - a move = attack system (i.e., the HOI system) would make much, much more sense, particularly in the later game. Naval warfare is even more unsatisfactory.

Maybe this goes beyond what can probably be included in an expansion, but simply implementing move = attack and a very basic supply system (e.g., you're armies have to be connected either to friendly territory or a port to recover org/strength) would immeasurably improve this game.

Yes, I know, "Vicky is not a war game blah, blah, blah" - please explain why nearly every AAR is a tale of inter-continental conquest then.

All we need now is an expansion that models civil wars. Imagine a 1918 Russia being torn apart by competing revolutionary parties and interested great powers!

Dynamic civil wars is another thing that the community have been asking for in Paradox games since forever. Ideally every country would be able to spawn a new state inside its borders with the appropriate flag and name for the rebelling ideology using the flags/names already found in-game. CK2 comes closest with its faction model, but Vicky 2 is still mirred in the past with the undifferentiated (yeah, I know they are 'ideological' and 'rebels with a cause', but in the end you barely notice this), easily defeated 'Red Rebels'.
 

lizardo

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The more EU influences that go back into the toilet the better.

In HoI some military leaders were available to the political hierarchy. It didn't really get developed much beyond that and Vicky really has dropped the ball on utilizing leaders.

It would be wonderful if nations were simply structures that were utilized by leaders to achieve their goals. For example you could see Germany changing behavior and goals radically with a change in leaders.

Beyond attributes, leaders would have goals, a bank account and be given decisions to make. Pops, leaders, resources, organizations. That's how every action should be accomplished. Vicky leader attributes are kind of nonsensical, judgmental, and complicated. Needs to be more like HoI.

Something very useful from HoI was the information in the province display box that showed what links there were to other provinces. This had great information about the nature of those links, or missing links. But that wonderful function didn't survive the transition to Vicky.

----

In the future, probably good to solicit input before stuff is developed, not after it's out the barn door.

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Addendum ships.

Not all battles are on the high sea, some occur near land or between features that limit the battle area. Lete Gulf is such an example where the straight the Japanese were transitioning allowed the Americans to 'cross the T'.

And of course leadership and training are always important. https://thediplomat.com/the-naval-diplomat/2013/06/03/when-hollywood-gets-seapower-right/
 
Last edited:

TristramShandy

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Great work by podcat and the other devs / guys at Paradox, I'm loving HOD whenever I find myself with the time to play it :)
 

Beagá

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The more EU influences that go back into the toilet the better.

In HoI some military leaders were available to the political hierarchy. It didn't really get developed much beyond that and Vicky really has dropped the ball on utilizing leaders.

Depends, military tradition was a good thing EU III had that should be here. Fight lots of battles? You will have good generals. Else, a bunch of noobs. Also, already said that military spending should influence the quality of generals.

As for national leaders, it´s obvious you can´t please everyone. While some people would love having Bismarck and have hissy fits if it was some random computer generated guy, some people would be very pissed if every time you had a conservative Prussia you had to swallow a historical leader with stats you might not like.
 

1alexey

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I would really love to see goverment policies get more attention.

-The fact that tariffs are used by almost no-one and everyone prefers to just charge taxes is ahistorical and ridiculous.
-People are not bothered by 100% tax rate. High marginal taxes are more creature of 1900s, income taxes didn`t even exist in 19cntury in many countries (hi, US).
-I would really like to see tax and tarrif policies to be cornerstone of political debate, and regions should often wote for parties based on tarrif policy.

Also, the voting habits of Pops should really be revamped.

-High-militancy pops should vote more for opposition, while low militancy vote for rulling party.
-Minorities should vote much more like a block. It is both historical, and gives barring minorities from political proces at least some sence.

The voting system should dictate political parties. If you have first past the post, you should only really have 2 or 3 parties, getting the 90+% of vote.
Political parties should always want to change political system so it suits them more, not according to ideaologies.
Political&Social reforms should be two-way road, not one way. IT is next to impossible to get reform revocation.
 

c01mhth10ch

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I don't know why is Victoria one of yours least played games. if I was to discover paradox games earlier Victoria would be my favorite. I was on the verge of buying it sometimes before HoD came out but I figured I'd wait for Victoria 3 since I came this long without it, I'm not sure I could take a step back in user friendliness and visuals compared to CK2.

Anyhow, Victoria is the best timeline, if done well it will be best grand strategy game ever, bring on Victoria 3 and don't forget ideabox :)
 

DBtotalwar

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You could integrate the cabinet system with the election process by making it more of individuals instead of parties. Like $North_German Name$ is running on the Conservative ticket. $North_German Name$ wins the election! He has become Chancellor!

If it's a monarchy then it would be pretty easy for cabinets... you just put whoever was king/queen during which time period. You could put dynamic party leaders (or let us name the head of state, but not government).
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On a side note, has anyone noticed that if you're playing as a monarchy, they still call you king no matter if you're even playing as Britain, where Victoria was [Queen]. A small detail but could still be improved :)
 

Phalanxia

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Dynamic elections and political system are the last pieces of the puzzle to make Victoria II into the really great game it has the potential to be, but it would be very easy to screw up. Drawing on my knowledge of coaltiion formation and parliaments as a political scientist and thinking about how they are relevant to the game, a good dynamic cabinet system might look something like this:

Instead of asking "How can we create a cabinet system that fits the current political system", we should be asking "How can we change the political system so that we can have cabinets?"

Possible Parliamentary model - let's take a country with the Liberal, National Liberal, Conservative, Catholic, Socialist, Communist and Reactionary parties. The election happens, and the player is presented with a broad array of possible coalitions, including {[Liberal; National Liberal; Catholic], [Conservative; National Liberal; Catholic], [Liberal; Socialist], [Communist; Socialist] [Conservative; Catholic; Reactionary]}. There's plenty of interesting research on how exactly coalitions are formed, but it's not necessary to discuss that here, other than to say that any such coalition formation would have to be minimum win-set (so the smallest number of parties to form a majority possible), and to be ideologically consistent (so liberals can form coalitions with conservatives or socialist, but not at the same time).

Each party not in government would have its own 'shadow cabinet', composed of politicians and beyond the control of the player. What's key is that we represent both the desires of individual politicians to get into government (and be head of it), and the desires of parties to be in government and carry out their policies. So, let's say the [Liberal; National Liberal; Catholic] government is formed, and the parties' composition of that coalition are 60%; 25%; 15% of the government. Accordingly, parties will want roughly that share of the ministries to go to them; but, if we take the prestige mechanic for generals and apply it to politicians, voters could also want a certain amount of 'prestige' in their government. This would reflect the need for influential politicians in the party to also be influential politicians in the government and disincentivise the player from forming coalitions with large parties that have massive majorities, with prestige for ministers being generated by holding on to different shadow cabinet positions (so being shadow minister for war generates more than being shadow cabinet minister for agriculture, for example),

It also wouldn't really make sense for politicians to have specific bonuses like generals do, otherwise you'd just end up with the Hearts of Iron problem of putting the best ministers in each position and having them sat there until the end of the game. Instead, whilst politicians should have simple general-like personalities (so pacifists immediately resign if a war is declared for example, a Francophobe means you won't be able to ally with France etc.), it also makes sense to have different but general values of competence - say military, economic and technological. So, if you have a naval minister who is top notch at military competence, but crap at economic and technological competence, naval units would become more effective in combat and cheaper to run, but both more expensive and take longer to build in less efficient factories, and also with a slower research pace in the naval school. This minister would therefore be good to have in the middle of a war, but not in peacetime. Obviously, some competences would be more important than others, as military competence in agriculture wouldn't be used at all for example. It also makes sense to have a 'leadership' competence for the head of the government - this would be a kind of meta-competence that affects the efficiency of all the other ministers in government.

Finally, parties should impose stronger constraints upon governments than they do now, and we should see more flexible governments. Returning back to the [Liberal; National Liberal; Catholic] coalition, assume that the liberal parties are free trade, and the Catholic party is protectionist. Government policy might either be then explicitly free-trade or status quo depending on how trade is weighted in the issues for the voters for those parties - if Catholic voters aren't bothered by protectionism, then the coalition policy might be free trade, whereas if they're ardent protectionists, the policy would be status quo. Under the latter, the Catholic party would have a veto over trade policy, and if tariffs are lowered by the player, the Catholic party would exit the coalition and the government would fall. Vice versa if the liberal voters are ardent free traders as well. Causing the government to fall would then present the player with a choice of either selecting a different coalition (with possible coalitions only selectable once every Parliament) or dissolving the legislature and calling a new election. This would be a much more interesting dynamic than the current silly max-mins imposed by the largest party of the largest ideology - seeing the government fall because it raised taxes or cut military spending would add a whole new dynamic to the game and economic decisions by the player.

Presidential systems could exist as a hybrid between this and the current system, without the need to build coalitions.