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Prodicus

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Yes, this definitely was the most constructive thread about the issue and some great ideas popped up earlier, so it served its purpose to some extent. But I wanted to point how "utopian" I think the aim of the thread is, to avoid disappointments. Conciliation will come when Paradox unilaterally satisfies most of the playerbase with an eventual patch (in which they maybe won't add anything that was talked about in the forums), not by lengthy discussion amongst ourselves leading to a compromise. So don't take it too seriously ;)

Fair enough, but didn't EUIV get ironman because of that massive thread over it last year? Wasn't there a great deal of demand for a CK2-> EUIV save converter well before they announced one?

I think Paradox is unusual among devs in that it takes its community very seriously, and is unusually willing to implement fan proposals. After all, they are a niche dev with a very motivated fanbase that comprises a disproportionate number of modders. I think if we on the forums established a consensus regarding the desirability of different game modes (or at least a copperman mode + more options regarding limits on expansion), they'd definitely consider adding it in, at least as DLC.
 

unmerged(372515)

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I don't understand game from any point then playing, but isn't it possible to make that option "easy" to reduce all these restrictions on conquest so that players that like expansion can enjoy the game? i am more for 1.2 option but there's no reason for other players not to enjoy their style of play.

Also, for us (1.2) I would like more in depth playing. usually after the war you deal with the WE, converting provinces, changing culture, reducing OE and after that again to war or you have nothing else to do. Trade is static, diplomacy to narrow, money is used very strict (gifts, buildings, army)...
 

Teije

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I think EUIV has gathered a lot of different players who want a lot of different things from the game: EU2 players, EU3 players, CK2 players, Vicky players, Paradox newcomers... I won't say what does each group of player want specifically, because that would probably lead to a flame :p, but anyway it's clear they want vastly different things from the game. And, in many cases, unfortunately, they're unable or unwilling to see that people different from themselves also exist and should not be forced to play the exact same game they, and only they, enjoy. So, yes, broader options would be great.

You've hit the nail on the head there. More options are always good. Frankly, the options can you set at startup in Paradox grand strategy games are pitiful. For comparison, look at a game like Distant Worlds (space 4x), where just about every starting variable can be set by the user to fully customize their own gaming experience. Without modding - just exposing the settings through the GUI.
 

IPlayer

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IMHO it seems that a lot of the people pro 1.2 are people who prefer the historical accuracy of the game and are mainly against ahistorical expansion. I want to play the way I want to play. I think that the game currently limits you too much. It seems to me that the 1.2 guys are people who don't really care about the other players and mainly newbies and people who just generally aren't that great in the game and are pleased that the game is really difficult with no real way to make it easier. I think that just so many of the stuff that are currently in the game just make the game unplayable or not fun for some.

I started a thread about the massive armies that the AI raises post 1.2 (which didn't erupt into a flame war luckily). For example i had Russia raise like 40000 men over their FL. There were people saying that FL are just a guideline and its a good thing that the AI is going over them if it can. Personally I'd like the AI to get to their FL and go ridiculously over them if not at war because I know i would pay at-least like 6 ducats if i were 40 units over my FL. But disregarding that you couple the ridiculous AI armies and the insane coalitions and you get something that is insanely powerful. Now if you look at my thread you could say that I was a giant empire spanned from India to Turkey and even parts of Russia, so no wonder the coalition against you was so big, (I was playing the Mughals FYI) but to that I would say that I played a game as Savoy. In that game i conquered 3 provinces and vassalized 1 OPM. I then got a coalition of: Naples, Aragon, France, Oldenburg and the Hansa to name a few. It is crazy how easily countries join against you even countries that are half a continent away from you.

I guess I just wanted to say in that rant that it should be taken down a notch and that people should really stop thinking of themselves and think about the entire community. I also don't mean to be rude to anyone that likes 1.2 ( i myself like some aspects about it) so please don't see it that way.
 
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Saladin Osmanli

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What's wrong with the term? HOI3 uses that term for a very similar concept. It's a mode that makes things less realistic for people who enjoy that. It would be perfectly fitting for a mode in EU3 that lowered (or removed) conquest restrictions.
Not so much wrong, but rather that I didn't get the connection between "arcade" and what the whole term is obviously referring to.
 

absinthia

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what is the purpose of this here thread?
it seems that the OP attempt to describe some dilema, but i can not understand what the subject is. there are a lot of text, but litle descernable content. there are some proposals, but i can not even understand what they are for, against or what it is supposed to fix.
Sorry, I realize it's a bit academic--chalk it up to occupational brain damage. It's supposed to cast the current debate on patch 1.2 in more general, neutral terms, suggest a more manageable amount of representative categories, and get the ball rolling on some proposals that might satisfy what these categories are looking for in EU4 without sacrificing other categories' fun.

i do understand the purpose of the thread it self, i just chose my words badly.
it is rather that i do not understand the point of the debate. what is the exclusive division between "risk" and "flexibility" camps, what defines those cathegories.

from what i gather through various threads it seems that there is a discord regarding possibility of world conquest by any faction. and i supose pro-conquest is in the "flexibility" camp.
what preferences is in the "risk" camp i am less sure about, as non-expansion seems pointless in a strategy game.

i am total noob to the EU-series and are in the process of getting to understand the basic mechanism and concepts. not wanting to ruin my learning-campaigns i have not updated to 1.2, so obviously i can not comment on the differences. my only point of comparison is CKII.
between the two series i would think CKII is on the more "flexible" end, catering for world conquest by anyone and player faction eventually becoming to big to fail.
what i like the most about CKII is the various ways to world conquest, wars of agression, marriage/inheritance and a great deal of scheming and ploting.

as for EU IV i find the PU/vassal, integration/anexation and royal marriage interesting in the same way. though i would not expect Saxe-Lauenburg to neither conquer Europa nor PU-integrate France/Spain/England.
considering the map size and my experience so far, world conquest is not on my menu.
how ever, regional conquest and world domination should be reasonably possible with a bit of luck and lots of good planing.
i do not mind failing to reach my personal goals, but i want to have fun loosing as well as winning.

i initially lay down a plan and jump on any oportunity towards it. but i easily get side-tracked by oportunities that goes far outside the initial strategy and require a new/extended one.

perhaps i am just on both sides of the fence and that is why i have a hard time grasping the points of debate...
 

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Fair enough, but didn't EUIV get ironman because of that massive thread over it last year? Wasn't there a great deal of demand for a CK2-> EUIV save converter well before they announced one?

I think Paradox is unusual among devs in that it takes its community very seriously, and is unusually willing to implement fan proposals. After all, they are a niche dev with a very motivated fanbase that comprises a disproportionate number of modders. I think if we on the forums established a consensus regarding the desirability of different game modes (or at least a copperman mode + more options regarding limits on expansion), they'd definitely consider adding it in, at least as DLC.

Yes, I do believe that Paradox listens to our opinions about the game and that some of the changes they do are directed by that. But right now, unfortunately, the opinions about 1.2 are something like 50% "IT'S THE BEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD" and 50% "IT'S THE MOST AWFUL THING I EVER PLAYED", with the average opinion being "1.2 is the best and the worst thing ever, and I absolutely love and hate it", so... I think they don't have much to work with this time, which is what I meant to say :p
 

Frogbeard

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You've hit the nail on the head there. More options are always good. Frankly, the options can you set at startup in Paradox grand strategy games are pitiful. For comparison, look at a game like Distant Worlds (space 4x), where just about every starting variable can be set by the user to fully customize their own gaming experience. Without modding - just exposing the settings through the GUI.

I've never tried modding, but I do like to code. I'm seriously thinking about whipping up a Java program that would open up any of the txt files that contain all the myriad options and display them with sliders to make it easy for people to set them however they want. Not sure if that would work well for people or is even a logical idea though. Any thoughts?
 

zodium

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i do understand the purpose of the thread it self, i just chose my words badly.
it is rather that i do not understand the point of the debate. what is the exclusive division between "risk" and "flexibility" camps, what defines those cathegories.

from what i gather through various threads it seems that there is a discord regarding possibility of world conquest by any faction. and i supose pro-conquest is in the "flexibility" camp.
what preferences is in the "risk" camp i am less sure about, as non-expansion seems pointless in a strategy game.

i am total noob to the EU-series and are in the process of getting to understand the basic mechanism and concepts. not wanting to ruin my learning-campaigns i have not updated to 1.2, so obviously i can not comment on the differences. my only point of comparison is CKII.
between the two series i would think CKII is on the more "flexible" end, catering for world conquest by anyone and player faction eventually becoming to big to fail.
what i like the most about CKII is the various ways to world conquest, wars of agression, marriage/inheritance and a great deal of scheming and ploting.

as for EU IV i find the PU/vassal, integration/anexation and royal marriage interesting in the same way. though i would not expect Saxe-Lauenburg to neither conquer Europa nor PU-integrate France/Spain/England.
considering the map size and my experience so far, world conquest is not on my menu.
how ever, regional conquest and world domination should be reasonably possible with a bit of luck and lots of good planing.
i do not mind failing to reach my personal goals, but i want to have fun loosing as well as winning.

i initially lay down a plan and jump on any oportunity towards it. but i easily get side-tracked by oportunities that goes far outside the initial strategy and require a new/extended one.

perhaps i am just on both sides of the fence and that is why i have a hard time grasping the points of debate...

Many people, though, have expressed that they prefer non-expansion, or at least that it should be a viable and fun strategy, in the past week. I haven't played CK2, so I can't comment on that, but I think if not prefer, then you're coming at EU from what I would call a flexibilist angle. The people who don't think non-expansion is pointless, I think, tend to prefer risk, namely external risk, in the sense that the game imposes risks on them beyond their control (so you can't just have a bigger military than the threat). I think it's safe to assume that all players like to have their own actions carry risk, but maybe risk is confusing. I'll think about that.

The world world conquest thing, well, you can probably ignore that. Lots of people have an opinion about whether it should be viable or not, but it's not been central to any points made for or against 1.2 mechanics. It tends to feature only in vague "for or against 1.2 in general" arguments. World conquest is basically the Kardashians of the EU forums: highly visible, fairly pointless issue that everybody knows about, some people hate intensely, and most don't care about.

I've never tried modding, but I do like to code. I'm seriously thinking about whipping up a Java program that would open up any of the txt files that contain all the myriad options and display them with sliders to make it easy for people to set them however they want. Not sure if that would work well for people or is even a logical idea though. Any thoughts?

Brilliant? I'm sure this improves when you get better at modding, but I am well and rightly tired of trying to find which file has what damn line, again.
 

Teije

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I've never tried modding, but I do like to code. I'm seriously thinking about whipping up a Java program that would open up any of the txt files that contain all the myriad options and display them with sliders to make it easy for people to set them however they want. Not sure if that would work well for people or is even a logical idea though. Any thoughts?

I (and I don't think I'd be the only one) would pay money for a true game editor, instead of having to muck around in undocumented text files.
 

bleakie

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Many people, though, have expressed that they prefer non-expansion, or at least that it should be a viable and fun strategy, in the past week. I haven't played CK2, so I can't comment on that, but I think if not prefer, then you're coming at EU from what I would call a flexibilist angle. The people who don't think non-expansion is pointless, I think, tend to prefer risk, namely external risk, in the sense that the game imposes risks on them beyond their control (so you can't just have a bigger military than the threat). I think it's safe to assume that all players like to have their own actions carry risk, but maybe risk is confusing. I'll think about that.

I think that "limits on expansion" and "randomness" more accurately describe the dimensions of dispute than "flexibility" and "risk". The changes in PU, CBs and claims belong to "limits on expansion", while the more decisive battles in early game belongs to "randomness".

Personally, I like the new limits on expansion, because those changes make the whole diplomatic system more coherent (no more PU abuse and 25% CBs before 1500). But I do not like the increased randomness. If I want to be defeated by the RNG god (in terms of a 0-9 roll in the first fire phase of a critical evenly-matched battle, for example), I don't need to play EU4. I just need to go to a casino.
 

Hartmann

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I've never tried modding, but I do like to code. I'm seriously thinking about whipping up a Java program that would open up any of the txt files that contain all the myriad options and display them with sliders to make it easy for people to set them however they want. Not sure if that would work well for people or is even a logical idea though. Any thoughts?

Thing is that people are likely to mess up their game with such sliders. E.g. there are lots of positive and negative opinion modifiers and the challenge is to carefully ballance these. Paradox themselves are still working on this and serious modders also usually invest a lot of time and testing into finding a perfect setting of values for such clusters of variables.
 

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I don't see why "arcade mode" should have negative connotations. To me it would be the same sort of thing as an always war mod. It wouldn't necessarily be easier, but it would provide an experience entirely centered around fast-paced strategy for those who want that sort of gameplay. Heck, I'm proudly one of those NOFUNALLOWED role-playing history nerds, and even I'd play a few games in arcade every now and then, just for the change of pace. We just need to realize that grand strategy gamers basically want three different games from EUIV, and it would be fairly easy to provide that for the community by creating three different modes with different expansion mechanics.

But if people would REALLY get offended by their playstyle being called "arcade", just call it Napoleon Mode or something.

Either way, there's no reason we should all get buttfrustrated at each other just because we want to play different variations on the same game. Instead of agitating to get our own preferred mechanics in a single game mode, which will just result in the devs pandering to everyone and completely pleasing no one, we should agitate to have the devs create several different game modes. To elaborate a bit more on how I see this working, we could have:

-A Historical Mode, where the ease of expansion fluctuates considerably based on the time and place, and in line with historical plausibility. So, for instance, in 1800 France or Austria can conquer and core Europe really fast (but massive coalitions will form really quickly for little AE), random international coalitions of natives don't form against GB (but attrition is much higher overseas until your tech/presence there increases), giant swathes of territory can be taken in 1700s colonial wars (but that massively increases colonial rebel chance), etc. etc. etc. It could allow for far greater fluctuations in power and a lot more risk to strong empires, but also greater opportunity for extremely skilled players (unless they're playing Ryukyu, Albania, etc., of course). This mode would generally be around 1.2 in terms of difficulty of expansion, with the historical part making certain aspects a lot easier and certain parts a lot harder.
-A Normal Mode, where expansion is somewhere between 1.13 and 1.2 in difficulty and speed. Perhaps keep the basic expansion mechanics constant in this mode for those who want a fairly consistent gameplay experience and less risk.
-An "Arcade"/Napoleon Mode, where expansion is easy for anyone who has the military and economic capabilities to carry it out. Make coring faster (or get rid of OE altogether!), make manpower replenish faster, etc., and have all these bonii apply to the AI as well, so the game presents a serious endgame challenge of massive blob wars.

I don't think any of these modes would be "easy" or "difficult", they would just offer fundamentally different experiences to players with fundamentally different desires.

Moreover, I'm not a dev and have only made a few crappy event mods in Paradox games, so maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about, but I don't think this would be enormously difficult to program. Surely if implemented it would solve the pointless divisions we've been experiencing lately.

Who's with me?

Besides appeasing people who want one thing and one thing only, Paradox could add a lot of variety to what the game offers with those modes. I know I'd play all three.


I think that "limits on expansion" and "randomness" more accurately describe the dimensions of dispute than "flexibility" and "risk". The changes in PU, CBs and claims belong to "limits on expansion", while the more decisive battles in early game belongs to "randomness".

Personally, I like the new limits on expansion, because those changes make the whole diplomatic system more coherent (no more PU abuse and 25% CBs before 1500). But I do not like the increased randomness. If I want to be defeated by the RNG god (in terms of a 0-9 roll in the first fire phase of a critical evenly-matched battle, for example), I don't need to play EU4. I just need to go to a casino.

I think flexibility goes beyond mere expansion, though. Just having options you can use to make weird things possible is also a nice draw. Think DDRJake's EU3 Ulm papal control game.
 

Olaf the Unsure

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Instead, the "compromise" should be to ask the cooks to serve all three soups separately.

That assumes, of course, that the cooks can do more than one soup well.

To borrow your analogy, I think we've had an overdose of only one kind of soup in the past, but now the cook seems to be working on a new recipe. And I'd rather he keep working to perfect the new recipe than return to making more of the same old thing.
 

Merrivale

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I would not mind at all if Paradox released a "1.1" mode option, but I honestly would mind if they spent a lot of time and development money on balancing it (it's not just as simple as going back to 1.1, there are a bunch of other changes and improvements made and balanced around the couple of 1.2 things people find objectionable).

I'd mind because that's effort that isn't going to improving the game I'm going to be playing and I'd rather see that effort directing toward improving internal country mechanics, religion, trade goods, colonization and natives, buildings, diplomacy around coalitions, and some other surprises I'm sure PI has up their sleeve. What I don't want to see is another Napoleon's Ambition, where after a huge freakout in the community with the removal of historical monarchs and leaders in EU2, they wasted an expansion mostly on adding them back in, only to see many of the complainers not using it because it didn't work well with the rest of the game, since the game wasn't designed for it.

Perhaps with the new DLC model I don't need to worry about a repeat of Napoleon's Ambition, but I want to see game mechanic improvement prioritized over game modes. And I also believe that until achievements are uncoupled in some way from the base difficulty ironman mode, adding a different game mode won't stop the complaining. It will satisfy some, including I guess the OP, but not enough.

So while I applaud the tone of this thread, keep in mind that the reason a lot of people get heated when arguing about this is that in a very real sense they believe the future of the game is at stake.

And I'd echo Pac's sentiment that one of the folks who spend a ton of time in the forum posting in all of these threads should redirect that toward modding a "1.1" mode. It doesn't have to be a solo effort, I'm sure a group could work on it.
 

bleakie

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I think flexibility goes beyond mere expansion, though. Just having options you can use to make weird things possible is also a nice draw. Think DDRJake's EU3 Ulm papal control game.

Can you give a link to the said game, I don't remember reading it anywhere.

Limits on expansion and the ability to do weird things are closely related, especially in the context of patch 1.2. The tighter limits on expansion restricts the amount of things that one can accomplish in the same period of time, so people will find the bottlenecks for achieving weird things more difficult to overcome.

Another change that closes many options is the improvement of AI, the third dimension suggested by OP. If you want to achieve improbable things, it is very likely that you need to exploit some dumb AI behaviour (blocking the Bosporus in mind) to overcome some important obstacles. If it is the more intelligent AI that start to limit the choices, then maybe it is the time to add AI intelligence to the starting choice. And for the sake of the integrity of the forum, label them as easy and hard. The word "normal" is a magical word that would attract people from choosing it, myself included. The disappointment of being unable to deal with the circumstances in "normal" settings can be potentially destructive. That's why a lot of people are insisting on playing in the default settings (Normal difficulty, Historical lucky nations, No AI/player handicap)
 

Nobak

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Can you give a link to the said game, I don't remember reading it anywhere.

Limits on expansion and the ability to do weird things are closely related, especially in the context of patch 1.2. The tighter limits on expansion restricts the amount of things that one can accomplish in the same period of time, so people will find the bottlenecks for achieving weird things more difficult to overcome.

Another change that closes many options is the improvement of AI, the third dimension suggested by OP. If you want to achieve improbable things, it is very likely that you need to exploit some dumb AI behaviour (blocking the Bosporus in mind) to overcome some important obstacles. If it is the more intelligent AI that start to limit the choices, then maybe it is the time to add AI intelligence to the starting choice. And for the sake of the integrity of the forum, label them as easy and hard. The word "normal" is a magical word that would attract people from choosing it, myself included. The disappointment of being unable to deal with the circumstances in "normal" settings can be potentially destructive. That's why a lot of people are insisting on playing in the default settings (Normal difficulty, Historical lucky nations, No AI/player handicap)

I thought it was in his sig, but no. I can't find it... hopefully I'm remembering at least the right person.
The concept of the game was to stay as OPM Ulm, convert to a heresy, force-convert every catholic nation to it, then go back to being catholic and control the curia. I don't think it was especially detailed so it might not have been a full-fledged AAR.
 

unmerged(235784)

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First let me just say that I like the idea behind this thread. Attempting to gather the reasonable people into a debate in order to find a workable compromise can only be to the good. :)


There seems to be a lot of focus about the merit of putting limits on expansion introduced in 1.2.

Let me first lay out what I think the issue looks like (more or less):
If you want to expand a lot in 1.2, the only way to do it is slowly and methodically, a few provinces at a time. This is because the AE modifier will punish fast expansion and because the WS system means you can only take a few provinces from your enemy even in the case of a total victory. Quite simply, there is an limit on how fast you can expand. Critics say this is not historically accurate, pointing to cases such as the Mughal and Ottoman Empires both of which had bursts of rapid expansion. Supporters reply that if rapid expansion was to be permitted, that would make it far too easy for the player to just keep expanding and become dominant (and perhaps even do a WC). Fast expanding states were typically led by a competent warrior King/Sultan and often ended or slowed down once this man died. Since the player is immortal, he can just keep on expanding however. A limit on the speed of expansion is therefore neccessary to balance the game, say supporters.

Some supporters have shown screenshots where they've been succesful in creating large empires despite the 1.2 restrictions, saying that they did it without having a single coalition war and with no countries in a coalition against them on the screenshot. This raises the question of whether AE really does make the AI smarter. Surely if they decide to gang up on a country doing a large expansion over 10 years they should also be ganging up on a country that has a massive expansion over 100 years.


The problem is then: How to allow bursts of rapid, large scale expansion without making the immortal player OP?

My suggestion for a solution is to make fast expansion easier but at the same time making new lands harder to digest.
Have provinces cost less WS in a peace and make AE more gradual in the sense that nations are slower to punish an agressor but have longer memories on who used to be agressive in the past. On the other hand, a lot of new provinces should create a lot of revoltrisk and have other negative effects on the conqueror. There should be a limit on how many provinces can be integrated at once, counted as a percentage of your total number of provinces. (To be perfectly honest I haven't quite thought the whole thing through so please tell me if I missed something!)

You would be able to choose to either do a steady expansion or to do it by leaps and bounds. The former should be slightly more effective in the long run but both ought to be made into viable strategies IMO. The great advantage here is that it would add some flexibility to your expansion strategy without making the game easier to play.
 

DDRJake

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I thought it was in his sig, but no. I can't find it... hopefully I'm remembering at least the right person.
The concept of the game was to stay as OPM Ulm, convert to a heresy, force-convert every catholic nation to it, then go back to being catholic and control the curia. I don't think it was especially detailed so it might not have been a full-fledged AAR.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?569992-Granada-tips&p=13248686&viewfull=1#post13248686

If you like inconsistancy, spelling errors and insights into game mechanics, that's the thread for you. Ulm was a fun game because it was a way to completly ignore the infamy mechanic of EU3. Despite playing a mod, everything there could have been done in vanilla.