HBS_Kiva on tuning the economy:

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HBS_Kiva

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Is it just a 1 = recovery and 0 = loss or could we do a .5 and have a 50/50 chance of recovering our mech vs it being destroyed ?
It's a float so you can make it 0.5. I didn't want to go that route because a random die roll that might or might not take away that large of a portion of your overall net worth seemed super-arbitrary, even more so than headshots or failed Guts tests. I don't want to ever reload a save, but I'd reload in a heartbeat if I lost an important 'Mech to that die roll.
 

Jaidenhaze

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I guess what I'm trying to say is: I don't believe in 'good players' and 'bad players'. I think anyone can be 'good' if the game teaches them how to be good.

I'd also like to build a 'hardcore' variant ruleset, with granular configuration options that let you tweak a variety of difficulty-affecting settings, but I believe the base game should be compelling all on its own for everyone.

But honestly? once you have the game, you can do what you like with it. I'd suggest starting with 'DestroyedMechRecoveryChance', which is currently set to 1, and which you can set to 0 if you'd like, guaranteeing that CT kills will destroy 'Mechs. If you do, let me know how it goes; I'm curious how it will change the way you approach risk (since my original plan called for 'Mech destruction from CT kills).

Thanks for the info. Does this line just include CT Deaths or deaths from Cockpit/Leg Destruction and Pilot incapacitations as well?
 

Zythen1975

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It's a float so you can make it 0.5. I didn't want to go that route because a random die roll that might or might not take away that large of a portion of your overall net worth seemed super-arbitrary, even more so than headshots or failed Guts tests. I don't want to ever reload a save, but I'd reload in a heartbeat if I lost an important 'Mech to that die roll.

I totally understand why you did not go that rout. I just asked because the idea of losing every mech that gets CT'd makes me shudder ( unless the game was designed with that in mind ) but having a chance of it being able to rebuilt to me is no where near as heart stopping.
 

kvetcha

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I totally understand why you did not go that rout. I just asked because the idea of losing every mech that gets CT'd makes me shudder ( unless the game was designed with that in mind ) but having a chance of it being able to rebuilt to me is no where near as heart stopping.

I think an 85% recovery chance feels about right. Provides the looming spectre of losing a mech without making the fear oppressive.
 

Jaidenhaze

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I think an 85% recovery chance feels about right. Provides the looming spectre of losing a mech without making the fear oppressive.
Well ..... remember the 98% must hit chance for an Enemy in XCOM2 that would otherwise kill at least one of your guys? There is a reason why stuff like that or a reduced crit chance for AI is in the game. We will probably mod it in anyway ;)
 

Agent.0.Fortune

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It's a float so you can make it 0.5. I didn't want to go that route because a random die roll that might or might not take away that large of a portion of your overall net worth seemed super-arbitrary, even more so than headshots or failed Guts tests. I don't want to ever reload a save, but I'd reload in a heartbeat if I lost an important 'Mech to that die roll.
I feel that if you mechs salvage value was returned for free this wouldn't be that bad. Meaning, if you Atlas was heard capped in the match you get the 3 Atlas mech parts for free. Or you Centurion is CT cored you get one Cent part back.
 

Mojo Amok

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I think Kiva's approach will end up working out better for us in that we'll actually end up with the ability to create high quality customized difficulty modes faster by releasing without them than if they had been developed in-house. Suffice to say, "About a year of additional tuning and playtesting time" isn't a good fit with my "In a perfect world." :D

While it would have been possible to create "easy" or "hard" modes, the fundamental point is identifying the optimal baseline to tweak those off of, which is a big enough job on its own for this game with its unique design challenges (it's like XCOM but we're a Necromancer and can raise dead Advent to fight for us).

Once Battletech is actually released and there's metadata on the player base as a whole, the baseline and how to tweak it will all become clear much faster than if it was attempted on Kiva's end during closed development. While we would have had some sort of "easy/hard" toggles with that alternate approach, my view is that we'll have a spectrum of quality tailored toggles more quickly than we would have otherwise.
 

Kiiiddd

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I feel that if you mechs salvage value was returned for free this wouldn't be that bad. Meaning, if you Atlas was heard capped in the match you get the 3 Atlas mech parts for free. Or you Centurion is CT cored you get one Cent part back.

I think this would cause issues with having to refit mechs and some people(casuals) wouldn't remember how they had their mech.

I do really like the idea of it costing a Mech salvage piece to repair a CT destroyed mech or having it be a chance to cost a mech salvage piece
 

Zythen1975

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I think Kiva's approach will end up working out better for us in that we'll actually end up with the ability to create high quality customized difficulty modes faster by releasing without them than if they had been developed in-house. Suffice to say, "About a year of additional tuning and playtesting time" isn't a good fit with my "In a perfect world." :D

While it would have been possible to create "easy" or "hard" modes, the fundamental point is identifying the optimal baseline to tweak those off of, which is a big enough job on its own for this game with its unique design challenges (it's like XCOM but we're a Necromancer and can raise dead Advent to fight for us).

Once Battletech is actually released and there's metadata on the player base as a whole, the baseline and how to tweak it will all become clear much faster than if it was attempted on Kiva's end during closed development. While we would have had some sort of "easy/hard" toggles with that alternate approach, my view is that we'll have a spectrum of quality tailored toggles more quickly than we would have otherwise.

A good solid base line with a bit of easier / harder tweaking will realistically be good for 80% of the player base The people who just truly suck at X game are going to suck no matter what unless you hand hold the entire game. And those at the top will need Battletechs verson of Impossible ironman long war for xcom.
 

Zarcon

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I feel that if you mechs salvage value was returned for free this wouldn't be that bad. Meaning, if you Atlas was heard capped in the match you get the 3 Atlas mech parts for free. Or you Centurion is CT cored you get one Cent part back.
It is my understanding that receiving back 3 Atlas parts for free would currently result in an auto repaired and outfitted Atlas arriving in your Argo. Not an ideal result from a headshot mech from my perspective. ;)
 

Kiiiddd

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A good solid base line with a bit of easier / harder tweaking will realistically be good for 80% of the player base The people who just truly suck at X game are going to suck no matter what unless you hand hold the entire game. And those at the top will need Battletechs verson of Impossible ironman long war for xcom.

Yeah there is no pleasing everybody lol

But from the sounds of this there are all sorts of semi easily changed values in a file somewhere. I bet it won't take someone long to make a little program with some easy UI that allows people to adjust all sorts of stuff for the game Including a bunch of difficulty stuff
 

Ayar

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Interesting thoughts and logic from Kiva as usual, great! (And thanks to twitter-scribe from another non-twit.)

And the DestroyedMechRecoveryChance tunable seems quite interesting, especially if turned on later in the game (even post story) to keep things challenging when you have a stable of mechs and warriors (and only fielding a mere 4 at a time, despite the stable size). Hmm, or possibly even immediately unless Cbill balancing is going to be radically different from what I've seen so far. Thanks to Kiva for letting us know about that option!


Plus it puts back the idea that mechs are replaceable, total mech losses do happen, and (in the source material) are not necessary company-ending at all. I do disagree with a characterization about mech availability and supposed "irreplaceability".

Mech loss in the source material (TT) is not the end of the your company and Mechs are not actually these ancient artifacts for which more were never made, like they are all penny black stamps or something. So there is no real contradiction in the source material rules & lore. Cored Mechs happen. Now you get to struggle some to buy a replacement somewhere. There are factories pumping mechs out at some rate per year (ok 100s until the Clans come, then 1000s). This is why the source material in the Techinical Readouts can assign "reasonable" C-Bill costs for mechs.

For example the Spider is 2.7-2.9 million C-bill base cost depending on variant. And that's for a mech that stopped full production of main variants roughly 100years before this game's period. The Thug lists as 7.7mC-bills. The "Mech Data" box of your mech record sheet should show a C-bill cost at the bottom. Replaceable.

But expensive; especially in the numbers needed to forward a House's internal and external agendas. Expensive for mercs as well, but not certainly company-ending (as related in plenty of source material prose), not even for all merc companies that are operating in the periphery and paying double or more for complete mechs. But despite the (imo) incorrect view of mech irreplaceability the HBS game looks very compatible with buying complete mechs at source costs + periphery markup--probably due to good economic balancing already in place!

Why are the mech costs so "cheap"? (1) there were loads made, (2) there are still loads around, (3) there are newer mechs being made every week in the as-yet undestroyed factories which cause price competition for last year's (century's) models, (4) not so cheap in the Periphery you can be sure. Can everyone have one? No, stop it. Are they always ancient artifacts? No not always. Some are, and some are 100s of years old (that Spider might be 500 or only 100 years old), and some get passed down within families; but someone is buying the new mech production. If they were only ancient artifacts, they would be priceless and there is no Battletech universe and certainly Clan invasion goes just a little differently.

The fact that there are lists of factories (factories is plural) destroyed during the Succession Wars--leaving enough to continue producing after the 3rd SW and into the Clan invasion--also puts to rest this notion that mechs are "irreplacable artifacts of a previous era". It just simply isn't the case in the battletech universe, from the Age of War right through the Jihad. Factories. Some millions of Cbills. Losses in the 100s and later 1000s. Not irreplaceable, not necessarily of a previous era (your specific backstory may differ).

The source material did examine--and also had trouble with--some of this balancing issue as well if you consider the Combat, Battle, and Point Values assigned to mechs for various rulesets.

Not that any of that blather matters, the HBS game looks awesome from what I've seen (6-10 hours of early campaign, thanks for allowing quality streamers!) and I suspect the balancing will be great as the result of hard work of Kiva's and others at HBS. And I'm fine with trivial diversions from rulesets, lore, etc, and am ready to buy dlcs or sequels or whatever that are of similar quality.
 

Frank E

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The goal, then, is to make it so losing doesn't cost you 20 or 30 hours, because if it does, you will either load a save game, or you will lose the game entirely because you lost one battle. Mechs are *just too expensive* for that to work.

Certainly. But if the only way to lose a campaign is by going bankrupt, it is what it is. That doesn't mean that losing one or two missions means that you should lose the campaign. For me though, that's an argument for having difficulty levels, not against. If you balance the campaign around a bad player that's losing missions multiple times while he gets better, how can that possibly be a challenge to someone that knows what they're doing?

I mean... I could retype the whole twitter thread here, but I don't really want to?

I did read that thread, I just didn't see where it was relevant. I guess that's because we just have a basic disagreement about whether there are good and bad players. I'm good at XCom and I'm bad at Starcraft, and you can't convince me otherwise! :D Maybe casual versus hardcore would be a better distinction? I'll never be good at Starcraft because I don't care enough about the game to ever get really good at it. If Blizzard balanced the game for my skill level, there's no way it would be challenging to a decent player. So that's where difficulty levels come in. I just don't think that there's a one-size-fits-all when it comes to what you're trying to do.
 

nimdabew

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I love the idea of losing a CT cored mech 20-25% of the time. It would make you think long and hard as charging a mech into the middle of a pitched battle, but also give you a chance to take damage and retreat the damaged mech to try and save the CT. I think that is going to be my first modified json file once I get the game. Make sure to save an original copy of your json files before modding, and create a copy for easy distrubition so others can enjoy your "mods".
 

SQW

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Having immortal mechs so player isn't crippled by a dead mech is okay. Streamlined salvage so player can progress through the game without grind is good. Both together, however, takes away too much challenge for a experienced player.

The player should feel the pain of losing a mech and gaining a new mech through salvage should feel like a triumph. Right now, you'll just stick the broken one in the repair shop and pop open one of half a dozen spares you've collected. I don't see any player actually needing to buy a mech unless it's one the player really really wants.