Has to be materialist for AI rights...

[redharo]

If anything materialist should not be allowed to AI rights and only Egalitarian

Materialism recognizes that sentience is just a product of the Brain, which itself is just a computer. They don't think living things have a special quality apart from their biology, what physically exists of them. So, they can give robots rights.

Egalitarian by itself doesn't recognize this. It sees sentient beings as equal, but doesnt recognize robots as sentient.

Hell, if you are materialistic + egalitarian government, then AI rights should be mandatory

 

[Vasious]

Perhaps we need an intermediaye step now we have species right

AI outlawed relates to undesirables
AI servitude relates to Slavery
AI Tolerated relates to residency
AI Full Rights related to full Citizenship


Leave the extremes end to Spiritualist and Materialist respectively and the middle two to everyone else, so in the OPs situation the Synths could be free, colonise but not vote or be leaders under the residence policy

 

[redharo]

Perhaps we need an intermediaye step now we have species right

AI outlawed relates to undesirables
AI servitude relates to Slavery
AI Tolerated relates to residency
AI Full Rights related to full Citizenship


Leave the extremes end to Spiritualist and Materialist respectively and the middle two to everyone else, so in the OPs situation the Synths could be free, colonise but not vote or be leaders under the residence policy

Why give residency to robots? Non materialists just see robots as tool. Do you give residency to your hammer?

Let's say you find archive where people uploaded their brain data to a server. Non materialist would just see that as data, and upload it to a robot for scientific purposes. They won't acknowledge that it is a person.

Materialistic wouldn't see the difference between those robots and a person besides the physical organic and inorganic... Even then amomg organic, there's many different forms

 

[jazzglands]

I think non-materialist empires should be able to at least give synths residence, if not citizenship.

 

[arctvrvs]

I think non-materialist empires should be able to at least give synths residence, if not citizenship.

Spiritualist empire should be unable to give synth rights, materialist should treat them as they treat any other species.
But if you are none of that, you should be able to do whatever you want.

My vision of ethics is more like a constraint. If you have no ethics at all, all options should be available. By choosing ethics, you restrain your possibilities.

 

[Teutonizer]

Spiritualist empire should be unable to give synth rights.

Well, if you somehow get all the needed tech, you can do spiritualist tin-can playtrough
So synth will have citizen rights
Also, spirits, can't give synth rights without the ascension anyway

 

[Bryartuck]

Do you give residency to your hammer?

Only if I can claim it as a dependent on my taxes.

 

[m4st3rm_]

Honestly, the way materialist and spiritualist ethos are handled right now is kind of bizarre. The spiritualists discriminate against synths for no apparent reason and the materialists are objectively wrong about the way the Stellaris universe functions. I know it's supposed to be to make different playstyles, but it still makes no sense.
In my opinion, spiritualists should be allowed to treat AI rights however they want, and materialists should be allowed to study psionics in a scientific fashion.

 

[Teutonizer]

Honestly, the way materialist and spiritualist ethos are handled right now is kind of bizarre. The spiritualists discriminate against synths for no apparent reason and the materialists are objectively wrong about the way the Stellaris universe functions. I know it's supposed to be to make different playstyles, but it still makes no sense.
In my opinion, spiritualists should be allowed to treat AI rights however they want, and materialists should be allowed to study psionics in a scientific fashion.

PDX still have a word otherwise

 

[chegitz guevara]

Let's say you find archive where people uploaded their brain data to a server. Non materialist would just see that as data, and upload it to a robot for scientific purposes. They won't acknowledge that it is a person.

As a hard core materialist IRL, I disagree. Uploaded information is just data. As a committed egalitarian, however, if we chose to put that data in new bodies that could experience and interact with the world, and was self aware, then we damn well better give it full rights.

 

[m4st3rm_]

PDX still have a word otherwise

Well, if we make enough noise, that might change. In the meantime, at least there's mods.

As a hard core materialist IRL, I disagree. Uploaded information is just data. As a committed egalitarian, however, if we chose to put that data in new bodies that could experience and interact with the world, and was self aware, then we damn well better give it full rights.

As what would probably be a 1-point spiritualist 1-point egalitarian in real life, I feel similarly. Furthermore, I don't see why a sapient AI wouldn't have a soul of its own.

Edited: Multiple things, double post fixed.

 

[Destiny's Player]

About Materialists being wrong about how the universe works. I've had an idea recently. The Shroud is the source of psychic powers, right? And it's more or less governed by all the beings in there, or at least that's the theory, right? Maybe these beings just don't want materialists getting their hands inside. The beings would want people who are easy to manipulate, while Materialists would be too hellbent on analyzing and understanding everything, and probably won't agree to the contracts.

So they just don't let psychic powers through to materialists. Simple as that.

 

[balmung60]

I think the important thing here is that ethic-based factions should not be allowed to demand rights (or denial thereof) that their ethos cannot grant. If egalitarianism or xenophilia does not imply a belief that sapient AIs are people (or mechanically allow a nation to grant rights to artificial intelligences), then the egalitarian and xenophile factions should not demand or care about the rights of robotic POPs.

My perspective as a materialist is that it does not matter whether the intelligence resides in meat or circuits and both deserve equal rights.

 

[arctvrvs]

I think the important thing here is that ethic-based factions should not be allowed to demand rights (or denial thereof) that their ethos cannot grant. If egalitarianism or xenophilia does not imply a belief that sapient AIs are people (or mechanically allow a nation to grant rights to artificial intelligences), then the egalitarian and xenophile factions should not demand or care about the rights of robotic POPs.

My perspective as a materialist is that it does not matter whether the intelligence resides in meat or circuits and both deserve equal rights.

I don't agree. Ethos don't grant anything, they restrict your moves.
By being neither Materialist not Spiritual, and being emperor in my domain, if I say robots are citizen then they are citizen.

 

[redharo]

As a hard core materialist IRL, I disagree. Uploaded information is just data. As a committed egalitarian, however, if we chose to put that data in new bodies that could experience and interact with the world, and was self aware, then we damn well better give it full rights.

As a hard core materialist, there's no divine spark that differentiates a man from synthetic sentient robot. Both are machines. One just happens to be made of organic materials.

So, they should be treated Same. Hence, full citizen right.

As egalitarian, by what logic do you jump to the conclusion that robots, a tool, should have same right as a person. Would u give a dog the same right as a person?

 

[redharo]

I don't agree. Ethos don't grant anything, they restrict your moves.
By being neither Materialist not Spiritual, and being emperor in my domain, if I say robots are citizen then they are citizen.

At this point, you are role playing. If you are authoritatarian emperor which isn't materialistic, the thought that robots aren't tools wouldn't cross your mind. If the thought does, then the emperor shifted to materialism.

Whereas, if you are materialistic, robots are same as everyone else in your government.

Would be hilarious to have a materialistic + authoritarian society where robots are full citizen and living things are slaves

 

[Gnostiko]

I successfully completed the event too and ended up with a robot pop on one of my colonies. I too am a little disappointed that after unlocking synths I'm unable to grant them rights.

 

[balmung60]

I don't agree. Ethos don't grant anything, they restrict your moves.
By being neither Materialist not Spiritual, and being emperor in my domain, if I say robots are citizen then they are citizen.

Mechanically, you're wrong. Egalitarian ethics grants the ability to give the highest living conditions. Authoritarian ethics give the ability to resettle, expel, and enslave POPs. Xenophobe ethic gives the ability to enslave and slaughter aliens. Materialist ethics give the ability to give robots the same rights as meatbags. Spiritualist ethics let you unlock the ability to declare planets holy and usher in THE END.

If you grant robots citizenship, you are, at the least, denying the spiritualist side by affirming that entities whose very existence affirms that that material begets consciousness, rather than the independence of the material and spiritual or the primacy of the spiritual, as well as defying the notion that only the divine can grant consciousness or a soul. Well, that, or you're giving entities that are inherently lesser than organic life and incapable of ever becoming equal to organic life the same rights as organic life.

That said, you should definitely be able to give synthetics the exact same range of rights as organics. For instance, authoritarians should be able to enforce the caste system on their synthetics, just like their squishier POPs

 

[Caspoi]

Remember people that even the most hardcore spiritualist would be able to see the difference between a rock and a synth, even if they don't think that synths have souls in the same way that organics have. If they are not spiritualists it also implies that they probably lack a strong belief in the spiritual which makes the fact that they can't even entertain the notion that giving the robots the benefit of the doubt and treating them at least as secondary citizens when they are more intelligent than most people and the culture in question may be fanatical xenophile quite baffling.

This is how I think that the order should be, to create a bit of nuance:

Fanatical spiritualists: can't create robots because of their blasphemous nature
normal spiritualists: can create robots but can't treat them as anything but machines meant to serve them and people would be uncomfortable around them (basically pre banks spiritualists, they would still have an incencitive to not have robots but it would not be a hard one)

People who are neutral on the axis would be able to take their own stance, usually preferring residency but giving them higher or lower standards depending on their xenophilia/phobia

non-xenophobic materialists would either give them secondary or full status, with xenophiles being forced to give them full status.

This would all in all still keep each ethos somewhat distinct and throw in the xenophiles and phobes into the mix which they deserve to be in while still making it so that you are not quite as forced by the game in what your stance on robotics is based on a single ethos or lack thereof.

 

[Aurtose]

So I think the thing to take from this is that a xenophile or egalitarian empire conceivably COULD think to grant AI rights - maybe not those of a full citizen (not immediately at least), but still it's enough of a point of debate that the option COULD justifiably be there.

Options for this:
-Research to give robots rights is available to non-materialists but has a much lower chance of appearing/is a tech tier higher.
-Research only appears once a significant number of synths are unhappy (and therefore underproducing). Something to preempt the robot revolt (the event chain, not the crisis).

The idea of giving your microwave rights seems ridiculous, but it would seem a lot less so if it was grumbling and taking longer to cook food. Depending on your egalitarian/authoritarian tendencies you could decide to set up a TV in the kitchen for it to watch or slap it until it does its job - sitting back and saying "it's just a tool" doesn't work when its performance as a tool is suffering due to issues you're unwilling to confront.