Has Crusader Kings 2 abandoned Europe?

[tywinzo]

India, China, Mongols. I can't remember when the last time Europe got some love. Is it just me, or has Paradox essentially abandoned Europe?

Somewhere between undermined and abandoned, I'd say. All real focus is on the new parts of the map.

Last Europe-focused DLC was around Charlemagne. And that was not even particularily good. The following DLCs are pretty generic with lots of non-Europe content, slowly but surely expanding outside Europe.

The worst part is that CKII has shifted fundamentally so far from the original CKI & CKII that is not the same game any more.

Scraps and leftovers, I'm afraid.

 

[Masternachos]

Considering that the base game is essentially solely Christian Europe*, wouldn't the rest of the world need more DLC simply to catch up?

*It's been so long... the few (feudal) Christians outside of Europe were playable too, weren't they?

 

[Steel_atlas]

Sigh.
Again. What you call Universal or now Generic DLCs are DLCs based on the way things worked in Europe. The only way these are localised are nomenclature and event pictures.

It's all just a matter of perspective. If you have knowledge of only one region, you can hardly know how badly the other are represented by using European mechanics and systems.

For instance Conclave could have taken into account the way how Byzantine or Muslim courts or councils (diwans) worked and it would be benefitial to both Byzantines/Muslims and Europe. Favours not, but for instance the need of council approval is exclusively European thing, which never worked outside Europe. Despite courts being very powerfull institutions often threatening the dynasty's power much more than Conclave councils, the DLC ignores it and apply European custom on the entire map.

Yes, even Crusades for Mongolia work better than decadence. Have you any insight in how muslim medieval societies have functioned and how the Iqta government and decadence are far from it?

Every religion has a crusade? Well, that's what I'm saying - everyone gets what Europe had. But what if they didn't? Wouldn't it be better if they had what they were supposed to have instead?

I don't claim that Crusades work as they should. But they still are European flavour imposed on others. You claim that it means the ROTW gets its flavour, but you can do that only because you (seemingly) are totally ignorant to how did things work in tRotW

How many more post-modernist buzzwords could you fit into this post?

Conclave and WoL are all generic, they dont fit any specific area, and they certainly arent imposing European flavor on other areas.

Maybe if you played all of the different areas you would realize all of them have area specific events.

The only european specfic ones are the mouth of hell, joan of arc and robin hood. And those arent exactly compelling game play.

Even the unqiue features of Europe have been given to the other areas to the point were the only unique thing about Europe is the independent Papacy that will decide randomly crusade targets.

Stop looking at it with your political lense, all games with multiple DLC have the same thing happen, the vanilla factions end up being underdeveloped compared to newer factions wether its WoW or Total War or CK 2.

 

[Steel_atlas]

Somewhere between undermined and abandoned, I'd say. All real focus is on the new parts of the map.

Last Europe-focused DLC was around Charlemagne. And that was not even particularily good. The following DLCs are pretty generic with lots of non-Europe content, slowly but surely expanding outside Europe.

The worst part is that CKII has shifted fundamentally so far from the original CKI & CKII that is not the same game any more.

Scraps and leftovers, I'm afraid.

CM gave everyone a new start date, and the HRE functions like a generic Empire, and Charlie rarely if ever forms the HRE.

Usually Western and Central Europe explode into bordergore and get eaten up by the Umayyad Empire.

 

[Marinaliteyears]

All of those lifestyle DLCs effected everyone.

Some religions dont have a monk order but they all have some sort of order.

Catholics get two identical orders.

Charlegmagne gave everyone a new map as did TOG.

So there have been two DLCs that were European Centric, Legacy of Rome and the Merchant Republic DLC.

Ahem. The Aztecs dont get any order, Even a satanic one.
-pet religion!-

 

[PK_AZ]

Ahem. The Aztecs dont get any order, Even a satanic one.

And rightly so!

 

[Marinaliteyears]

And rightly so!

Rightly? come now. Even -Hellenism- gets an order, and it isnt even playable without mods! (or bizzare work arounds/cheats.)

 

[Steel_atlas]

I dont actually mind Sunset Invasion, I wish they were getting the Emperor of China feature, which would make Jade Dragon not feel so pointless for Europe.

 

[Inquisitor Silenus]

How many more post-modernist buzzwords could you fit into this post?

what is this supposed to even refer to? Buzzwords like "perspective" and "customs"? Maybe "institution" is the post-modernist buzzword that you're not allowed to use; sorry EU4!

Every religion has a crusade? Well, that's what I'm saying - everyone gets what Europe had. But what if they didn't? Wouldn't it be better if they had what they were supposed to have instead?

Underlined for emphasis.

Europe looks underdeveloped to these guys because everyone else is just a slight variation on Europe + [insert mechanic here].

 

[Jako473]

Lol, it is this thread again.



What? If we go by that questionable logic, the game should not even have Europe - only have coastal Levant and parts of Fertile Crescent be present on the map, because that is where the Crusades took place. Anything outside automatically becomes irrelevant, right?

And EU4 shouldn't have anything outside of Europe playable or visible.

Or heck, Hearts of Iron should be a metallurgy and surgery game about prosthetic body organs.

Nothern Crusades? People's Crusade? Reconquista? Never to mention how we want to play as Crusader *States*. That includes the nations who sent soldiers and died for the Crusades. So that's all of Europe, practically. Great. So that's what they did.

Honestly you European haters are so laughable.

These threads actively make me want there to be fewer DLC in europe out of spite.

Do you guys realize that no one would even purchase the game if it wasn't based in Europe? If you disagree, they tried it. It's called Sengoku. Released right before Crusader Kings 2. Less than 1/10 of the buyers. No DLC.

Try it with any other area on a similar model to CK2.. It just doesn't work. And now we get back to the root of the issue: Silly people praising Paradox for making silly things. Is China needed? Well no, not really. Does it simulate the world better? No, it doesn't interact with Europe at all. I was okay with The Steppes and Muslims because they needed to be better enemies, but really, the system doesn't work for them. Certainly doesn't work for India.. At all.. And won't work with China. It barely works for Europe, with numerous critical systems still missing from the game. Anyways, all of you are bitching that these areas outside of Europe need DLC, why? Paradox won't do them justice. They'll compartmentalize it and make it retarded like Aztec Invasion. Then you bitch all over again why these areas need more exploring, because they're not finished..

Which leaves the European players, the majority, frustrated as well. Look. The thing is, developing new content isn't bad. But it is wasted by doing half-baked ideas that just won't add much and just leaves more bloat for the game. I want a perfectly simulated game of Europe. I want to play a dynasty start to end, with actual challenge, decisions, and weight to my actions. I don't want to play African Gold Miner and sit as I got tons of gold, with nothing to purchase it on, because they forgot to implement african buildings or something, thus breaking the game as I can just purchase all the Mercenaries in the world and go massacring Africa and Europe.. That isn't fun, because it's poorly designed. I am looking into Historical Fiction, not lala land in the Rajas where I get to ride an elephant. The Crusades should have been priority 1 and fixed with Sword of Islam. Instead the area hasn't been visited for five years.

Paradox is on a wild run, gobbling up as much money as they can, as fast as they can. There is STILL no naval combat in the game. Fucking Naval Combat. I rest my case, I don't care what anyone says such as shit like 'well in this time period...' The game span's practically a THOUSAND years. It's insane to say that something didn't exist in this time period. of course there is shit to go and discover and expand on. There will always be. But the game is based on EUROPE. If the Devs can't realize that, well they're shit out of luck because that's what the fucking game is about and all what anyone actually cares about in the first place. There is a reason why all the Top Mods, all what *Anyone* actually plays these days, are based on European Alternate Histories/Fantasies/Improving Europe. Because that is what matters. If you want a game based on Japan, India, africa, or whatever else, go petition Paradox to go make that game the best it can be and watch as no one purchases it.

 

[Foefaller]

How many more post-modernist buzzwords could you fit into this post?

Conclave and WoL are all generic, they dont fit any specific area, and they certainly arent imposing European flavor on other areas.

Maybe if you played all of the different areas you would realize all of them have area specific events.

The only european specfic ones are the mouth of hell, joan of arc and robin hood. And those arent exactly compelling game play.

Even the unqiue features of Europe have been given to the other areas to the point were the only unique thing about Europe is the independent Papacy that will decide randomly crusade targets.

Stop looking at it with your political lense, all games with multiple DLC have the same thing happen, the vanilla factions end up being underdeveloped compared to newer factions wether its WoW or Total War or CK 2.

So by your definition, if it adds any new content at all to the ROTW, it's DLC that "abandons" Europe/Christianity?

So, even though SoA was a complete overhaul of the Papacy, with Cardinals, new papal favors, reworked Holy Orders (which, btw, without SoA there are only five that are not Catholic; Assassins, Jomsvikings and the three Dharmic Holy Orders, and of those, only Assassins and Jomsvikings were around with SoA was launched) and pilgrimages, the fact that it adds playable Jews (who have only three decisions and (IIRC) maybe one or two events unique to them, otherwise it's not much different from being Lollard before you build the Third Temple and Fratcelli afterwards) Mutazilite/Ashari traits for Sunnis and holy orders for everyone that doesn't have one by default or from their own DLC means it was a ROTW DLC that abandons Europe?

Or the fact that the vast majority of new events in Charlegmane, the tribal mechanics added with the free patch, and Viceroyalties make the most obvious appearance in Christendom (keep in mind that, outside of Pagans and nomads w/o HL, virtually all tribes are christian, the only examples I could find are a couple of Muslim tribals north of Mali and Zoroastrian tribals in Alan/Karen Strapy, both are gone by 1066.) But they let *everyone* play in that new start date! And added Zunist to boot! Totally ROTW DLC.

By that logic, not even The Republic, LoR, or Sunset Invasion are European DLCs; I can use those tribal Muslims in Africa to start a Republic in Marrakesh if I wanted (or Germanic/Nomads to start one anywhere), Retinues are available for anyone, and Sunset Invasion can start in Africa or what, in pretty much all but the Late Middle Ages bookmark, is Muslim Spain.

Just because things that first made their apperance in Christianiaty or Europe makes an appearance later does not dilute or weaken Christian Europe. Noone else has anything like the Papacy, or Autocephaly, nor does any other region or governement (to my knowlege) has to pay attention to claims or cultures the same way Christians do when it comes to expansion or control of a region. Until Conclave, no other faith other than reformed Pagans allowed for Elective or Seniority, no other religion has heresies that make women equal to men, no other faith than Catholics lets you pick who your next bishops are, and no other faith that doesn't let you *be* the religious head lets you put your head under your thumb and have it *mean* something. You might think that makes them weaker, but I say that's what makes them unique. The biggest difference between CK2 and the other games you've mentioned that have "improved" the vanilla factions is that in those game, the challenges are meant to be symmetrical. CK2, right from the very first time you start it up, declares that is NEVER the case.

 

[klopkr]

@Jako473 Don't use Sengoku as an example for a failed pdox game that's like using March of Eagles as an example. Neither games were meant to be big successes they were set ups for CK2 and EU4 respectively.

 

[Thure]

@Jako473 Don't use Sengoku as an example for a failed pdox game that's like using March of Eagles as an example. Neither games were meant to be big successes they were set ups for CK2 and EU4 respectively.

This. Sengoku was just like a Beta Version of CK2...

 

[Czert]

Somewhere between undermined and abandoned, I'd say. All real focus is on the new parts of the map.

Last Europe-focused DLC was around Charlemagne. And that was not even particularily good. The following DLCs are pretty generic with lots of non-Europe content, slowly but surely expanding outside Europe.

The worst part is that CKII has shifted fundamentally so far from the original CKI & CKII that is not the same game any more.

Scraps and leftovers, I'm afraid.

Well, if you remember CK1 then you surely know that ck2 lost thier original soul with relase of soi. and prety much all dlcs after it.

 

[Czert]

How many more post-modernist buzzwords could you fit into this post?

Conclave and WoL are all generic, they dont fit any specific area, and they certainly arent imposing European flavor on other areas.

Maybe if you played all of the different areas you would realize all of them have area specific events.

The only european specfic ones are the mouth of hell, joan of arc and robin hood. And those arent exactly compelling game play.

Even the unqiue features of Europe have been given to the other areas to the point were the only unique thing about Europe is the independent Papacy that will decide randomly crusade targets.

Stop looking at it with your political lense, all games with multiple DLC have the same thing happen, the vanilla factions end up being underdeveloped compared to newer factions wether its WoW or Total War or CK 2.

honestly, you look you are stuck inside game, or more precisely in medival thinking in which everthyng was centred about something. it was sun that revolved around earth (anythink else was heretical and must be burned), world was revolvering around europe(or china) and anything else was heretical and must be burned.

do you have ready stakes for heretical devs ?

 

[Czert]

Ahem. The Aztecs dont get any order, Even a satanic one.
-pet religion!-

arent aztecs satans themself ?

 

[Czert]

Nothern Crusades? People's Crusade? Reconquista? Never to mention how we want to play as Crusader *States*. That includes the nations who sent soldiers and died for the Crusades. So that's all of Europe, practically. Great. So that's what they did.

....


Paradox is on a wild run, gobbling up as much money as they can, as fast as they can. There is STILL no naval combat in the game.

originaly i didnt intended to react, but i will do.
1. northen crusades ? well, which ones you have in mind ? you meaned tetuonic knights, which fithted pagan lithunians for short time, and spend more time atacking christian poland and later christian lithunians ? which didnt cared at all about norse pagans ?
2. peoples crusade ? which ones you have in mind ? i cant recal any.
3. reconqusta - yes, it was about moslims vs christins, but well, i fail to recall any pope call to reclaim spain and he did clled for reclaiming of holy and (jerusalem).

onlyest think i agree with you is that we lack naval combat. yes, that is onlyest feature still greatly missinh in game.

and for non europen games ? yes, seengoku failed , but mayby it was not because of placed in japan (japan alone is very rich country, and should generete very nice money for devs alone), but because of failed mechanicks with nothing interesing,

well, did you heard about game called rome ? yes, it got ONE dlc, but thats all, and well, that game failed. ques why ? it was pure europe only. so how it should fail ? in your logic it was imune to fail, yet it failed.
yeah, there are multiple calls to make rome 2, ques why.

 

[Thure]

honestly, you look you are stuck inside game, or more precisely in medival thinking in which everthyng was centred about something. it was sun that revolved around earth (anythink else was heretical and must be burned), world was revolvering around europe(or china) and anything else was heretical and must be burned.

do you have ready stakes for heretical devs ?

You wouldn't be burned because you say earth rotates around the sun. Some priests even did it, but they didn't get much popularity because they couldn't prove it.
And the earth was not in the center because it was something good. Because the earth was in the center it was the farthest place from heaven and so the farthest place away from God.

 

[Masternachos]

You wouldn't be burned because you say earth rotates around the sun. Some priests even did it, but they didn't get much popularity because they couldn't prove it.
And the earth was not in the center because it was something good. Because the earth was in the center it was the farthest place from heaven and so the farthest place away from God.

The Church probably wouldn't have cared as much about Galileo proving Jupiter had moons, thus illustrating there were things out there that DIDN'T revolve around the Earth, if it hadn't been for the Reformation and Urban VIII overreacting to criticisms of not protecting the church; just a few decades earlier, Gregory XIII actually used Copernicus's work to reform the calendar.

 

[Thure]

The Church probably wouldn't have cared as much about Galileo proving Jupiter had moons, thus illustrating there were things out there that DIDN'T revolve around the Earth, if it hadn't been for the Reformation and Urban VIII overreacting to criticisms of not protecting the church; just a few decades earlier, Gregory XIII actually used Copernicus's work to reform the calendar.

Yes. And if Galileo didn't insult the pope in the work he did FOR the pope and with the pope's money...