OK, guys, hands up, who has seen the US pop up in the course of a Grand Campaign?
[Kekkonen keeping his hands strictly down]
[Kekkonen keeping his hands strictly down]
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Yep, in the 'Improved Grand Campaign 1.2'
IGC 1.3. with additional features and removed random crashes will be available soon at a thread near You...
Hartmann
Yep, in the 'Improved Grand Campaign 1.2'
IGC 1.3. with additional features and removed random crashes will be available soon at a thread near You...
Hartmann
No - I haven't, and I must have finished about 10 games by now. (Only one and a half of the 'improved' version though, were I know it is easier - only Delaware and Manhatten nedd revolt I believe?)
Do Delaware and Manhattan need to be English, or can they rebel and form the US no matter who controls them?
12 provinces must rebel. They must belong to the same country which has occupied the later US capital province. This doesn´t have to be England, but the conditions nevertheless almost never apply. Ah, and the rebellion cannot occur before 1750. In the IGC it´s 1700.
Hartmann
[This message has been edited by Hartmann (edited 08-02-2001).]
Hartmann
[This message has been edited by Hartmann (edited 08-02-2001).]
Hm. If Paradox designed it the way it is in the original GC, maybe they thought the (now) US were just lucky...?
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Attrition is not a strategy. Attrition is the apparent lack of strategy. (Sun Tzu)
If you go back all the way to 1492, the American Revolution is a pretty low order probability. It requires the England first colonize a low population area overseas, then pursue policies that alienate the colonists. Lots of things could turn out different that would preclude the American Revolution.
Whether that is 'lucky' or 'unlucky' for the rest of the world kind of depends on who you are and what assumptions you make about the alternatives.
Whether that is 'lucky' or 'unlucky' for the rest of the world kind of depends on who you are and what assumptions you make about the alternatives.
What is the Improved Grand Campaign? Is an official Paradox patch?
What does it do?
What does it do?
The IGC is an unofficial usermade scenario. Unlike the other scenarios it includes heavy editing of allmost all 'open source' gamefiles save text.csv. To see what it does, have a look at the scenario depot forum.
The IGC 1.2 is downloadable here
http://www.ludd.luth.se/~doomdark/EUproject.html
IGC 1.3 is ready and will be uploaded when Doomie returns from his well deserved vacations. I recommend waiting for this, as IGC 1.2. suffers from some random crashes which I removed in IGC 1.3.
Regards, Hartmann
The IGC 1.2 is downloadable here
http://www.ludd.luth.se/~doomdark/EUproject.html
IGC 1.3 is ready and will be uploaded when Doomie returns from his well deserved vacations. I recommend waiting for this, as IGC 1.2. suffers from some random crashes which I removed in IGC 1.3.
Regards, Hartmann
What I meant was that there are a number of scenarios that historically could translate into “no American Revolution”. Many of them would have direct and immediate ramifications for other parts of the world, not just ramifications stemming from the USA not being around to do this or that later. Then, of course, there are those indirect ramifications resulting from no USA being around later, some of which are very indirect.
The things that could, during the time period of the game, lead to no USA fall into several categories:
1) No English colonies in North America. Why would England not colonize in North America? England could have found the Aztecs & Incas before Spain and gone conquistadoring, instead of settling in areas where the majority of the population would be English colonists. England could have stayed Catholic and honored “the line” declared by the Pope which divided the New World between Spain & Portugal. England could have done worse in its perennial squabble with Scotland and had no energy for Colonization. England could have devolved into civil war even worse than it historically did, and again had no energy for colonization. The English government could have been sufficiently intimidated by Spain that they would refrain from colonization. The Spanish Armada could have been a success, leaving the English completely out of the colonization business. Forget America – what do some of these do to history in Europe?
2) English colonies in North America are conquered. There were abortive attempts at large tribal confederations to fight English/American colonization. This could have happened earlier and more effectively, driving the colonists into the sea. Spain could have wiped the English colonies out when they were small and vulnerable. France could have won the “French & Indian War”.
3) England could have pursued more enlightened colonial policies, so the Revolution never breaks out. In this scenario, what is now the US ends up as “Canada South”, probably with a much lower population and thus economic & military strength than the USA. Canadian policies never did attract the same level of immigration as the US, and I would assume “Canada South” would be the same. So, come the World Wars this is not necessarily a good thing for Britain.
4) England could have won the Revolutionary War and hung all of the “Founding Fathers” as traitors & rebels. In this scenario, America probably becomes “Ireland West”, tying down British troops to occupy it and threatening rebellion every time strategic concerns elsewhere distract the British, generally being more trouble than it is worth.
5) The colonies could have gone their separate ways after beating off England, each becoming an independent country and eventually falling to squabbling among themselves. In this scenario, America becomes “Europe West”.
As to those later ramifications of “no USA”, consider the following:
1) To what extent did the American Revolution influence the French Revolution, both in terms of contributing to the debt that destabilized the royal government and to the ideology of the revolutionaries?
2) To what extent did the American Revolution inspire Latin Americans to through of Spanish rule in the 1820’s.
3) To what extend did the threats of a heavily armed immediately post-Civil War USA to enforce the Monroe Doctrine influence France to withdraw from Mexico? What if France had been as stubborn about Mexico as it later was about Algeria. In fact, consider generally, to what extent did US Monroe Doctrine-based diplomacy inhibit the stronger European powers from recolonizing Spain’s wayward children once it became obvious that Spain could not keep them under control herself?
4) To what extent did US diplomacy prevent the European colonial powers from carving up China into colonies after the Boxer Rebellion?
5) To what extent did the US influence the outcome of WWI? Consider the effects of restraint by Germany trying to avoid US intervention, arms sales by the US to the Allies before & after the US declaration of war, the contribution of US troops during the final year of the war on the Western Front, and the influence of the US on the peace treaty concluding the war?
6) To what extent did US diplomacy and military presence in the Pacific restrain Japanese aggression between the World Wars?
7) To what extent was the influence of the writings of Henry David Thoreau, an American, vital to the development of Gandhi’s philosophy of passive resistance, and if they were vital what would have been the course of history in India without Gandhi’s passive resistance.
8) Assuming WWII even ends up happening after however WWI would have turned out without the USA, to what extent did the US affect the outcome of the war? Clearly, no USA means Japan would have won in the Pacific. Would Germany have won in Europe? Maybe, maybe not. If Germany had lost anyway, without the US to what extent would post-war Western Europe have ended up under Soviet domination with no USA as a counterweight, no Marshal Plan, etc…?
9) To what extent did US diplomacy contribute to European decolonialization after WWII?
You could probably think of a lot more. You could probably write entire books about any of them. I think, however, that the influence of the USA on world history has been more positive than negative overall, and that it would be hard to find a nation for which “no USA” would be all good and no bad.
Well Barnicle,
If any of the conditions, 1-9, had occured, the history books would have been wriiten by someone else, and in a very positive manner I promise you! The Game engine is only capable of so much, so many 'what ifs', are simply not feasible, from a programming point of view. If christianity hadn't succeeded in northern europe...etc. Play it, enjoy it for what it is. A detailed impact of every historic variance must await the advent of quantum computers.
Alarick
If any of the conditions, 1-9, had occured, the history books would have been wriiten by someone else, and in a very positive manner I promise you! The Game engine is only capable of so much, so many 'what ifs', are simply not feasible, from a programming point of view. If christianity hadn't succeeded in northern europe...etc. Play it, enjoy it for what it is. A detailed impact of every historic variance must await the advent of quantum computers.
Alarick
barnacle bill, if there was no USA i am sure the rest of us could probably convince ourselves that we lived in the best of all possible worlds anyway . . . ;-)
Oooohhh, so very serious! Not always the best policy in an America-bashing culture like this one.
Regards,
Maturin
Speaking of which, I pre-ordered mine yesterday from Babbages. The release date is Feb. 21, 2010.