Harsh Treatment Or Autonomy For Dealing with Rebels and Absolutism

[Sfan]

Well personally I do not use anything except occasionally the wiki, and an Excel file for the ideas with which dead nations are released as the wiki does not mention it. You learn that step by step, and it was easier to learn the game when it had a few patches and mechanics, and to learn new ones with every expansion, than it is to learn everything at once now.

But that's ok. You don't need to know all of that or half of that. This kind of knowledge and optimization is only needed for a very difficult campaign, like a World Conquest (and that's why we mention them, as you planned to WC in the first place). You can play interesting games as tons of countries without it. And you can use these games to discover mechanics by yourself which is the best way to remember them. No one could learn the game from reading an armlong list of advices. Play it. I learned basics with Portugal. I learned to play around alliances with Florence. I learned trade with Milan. I learned army composition after France kicked my butt as Castile. Slowly and steadily my knowledge of the game increased up to the point where I could be more and more successful. And as I understood more and more of the g game, I benefited more and more from the experience of extremely talented players, because I saw which issues they were addressing and started to understand the reasoning behind their moves. And slowly but steadily I became a player with several WC, and 75% of the achievements including some of the toughest ones.

Maybe there are some people who started right off the bat with with very difficult things because they played EU3, or are very experienced in strategy games. That's not my case, yet I became better by playing and failing, and thinking about what could have been different, and save scumming as well.
So long as you like playing and keep playing you'll become better naturally.

 

[PhoenixG]

But isnt a military more important than an economy? You can gain economy from expansion, but you need a good military to expand everywhere

But you need an economy to have military power. You might have the military quality of Prussia, but if you have an economy of some backwater country you can't use that power. This is why in the early game you want to improve your base power aka have good economy to field a big army to fight at multiple front.

Tech Screen:
View attachment 309778

Institution Screen:
View attachment 309779 View attachment 309780
And as you can see I am isolated in not having them. Even Hobyo has global trade

Seeing how low your MP are, I guess you tech up with that high tech penalty. imo it would be better if you took some loans to embrace those institutions and tech afterwards. You waste a lot of MP for teching with that high penalty. MP is a limited resources, while money isn't.

Develop? With monarch points. And so 5 cavalry to 11 infantry is a waste then, I am guessing
Morale, discipline, tactics are good, got it. How is one supposed to remember all this stuff, like tech, admin efficiency, whether ideas are better than techs. Do people just use an spreadsheet for all this?

It's pretty much experience in the game. Most of the time is tech > ideas. This is especially the case for mil tech.

Admin tech: pretty much up to tech 7 you want it as fast as possible. Unlock two idea group and two basic money making building. After that the important onces are the one that unlocks idea group and increase admin eff. (tech 10, 14, 17, 18, 23, 26, 27, 29). while they are important you don't have to rush for it. Try to think what you need more at this moment; the bonus from the tech or the bonus from an idea.

Diplo tech: Tech 7 is often needed if you go colonizing, since it's first tech that increase colonial range. If you use your navy, tech that gives you better heavy ships are imporant (tech 9, 15, 19, 22, 25). But if you fight most of the time on land you can ignore those. The most important tech in dip is tech 23. The CB you get is really important.

Most of the stuff you can see is by hovering your mouse of the icon on right in the tech tab.

 

[Adamgerd]

Well personally I do not use anything except occasionally the wiki, and an Excel file for the ideas with which dead nations are released as the wiki does not mention it. You learn that step by step, and it was easier to learn the game when it had a few patches and mechanics, and to learn new ones with every expansion, than it is to learn everythin at once now.
But that's ok. You don't need to know all of that or half of that. This kind of knowledge and optimization is only needed for a very difficult campaign, like a World Conquest. You can play interesting games as tons of countries without it. And you can use these games to discover mechanics by yourself which is the best way to remember them. No one could learn the game from reading an armlong list of advices. Play it. I learned basics with Portugal. I learned to play around alliances with Florence. I learned trade with Milan. I learned army composition after France kicked my butt as Castile. Slowly and steadily my knowledge of the game increased up to the point where I could be more and more successful. And as I understood more and more of the g game, I benefited more and more from the experience of extremely talented players, because I saw which issues they were addressing and started to understand the reasoning behind their moves. And slowly but steadily I became a player with several WC, and 75% of the achievements including some of the toughest ones.
Maybe there are some people who started right off the bat with with very difficult things because they played EU3, or are very experienced in strategy games. That's not my case, yet I became better by playing and failing, and thinking about what could have been different, and save scumming as well.
So long as you like playing and keep playing you'll become better naturally.

Yeah, you improve from playing and I understand most things now except tech and trade, which I still struggle with. Maybe I'll try a tall Italian minor for that. And yeah its good you'd not immediately need to remember everything or most would give up

 

[Adamgerd]

But you need an economy to have military power. You might have the military quality of Prussia, but if you have an economy of some backwater country you can't use that power. This is why in the early game you want to improve your base power aka have good economy to field a big army to fight at multiple front.

You can expand to get provinces to improve your economy though also, but I do see your point.

Seeing how low your MP are, I guess you tech up with that high tech penalty. imo it would be better if you took some loans to embrace those institutions and tech afterwards. You waste a lot of MP for teching with that high penalty. MP is a limited resources, while money isn't.

Ah, so sometimes its worth it to take loans to embrace institutions. Also I heard that you can use development to decrease your embracing cost. How?


It's pretty much experience in the game. Most of the time is tech > ideas. This is especially the case for mil tech.

Admin tech: pretty much up to tech 7 you want it as fast as possible. Unlock two idea group and two basic money making building. After that the important onces are the one that unlocks idea group and increase admin eff. (tech 10, 14, 17, 18, 23, 26, 27, 29). while they are important you don't have to rush for it. Try to think what you need more at this moment; the bonus from the tech or the bonus from an idea.

Diplo tech: Tech 7 is often needed if you go colonizing, since it's first tech that increase colonial range. If you use your navy, tech that gives you better heavy ships are imporant (tech 9, 15, 19, 22, 25). But if you fight most of the time on land you can ignore those. The most important tech in dip is tech 23. The CB you get is really important.

Most of the stuff you can see is by hovering your mouse of the icon on right in the tech tab.

What is the tech 23 CB. And yeah that makes sense. And so admin eff. I am guessing is good. What is it exactly?

 

[PhoenixG]

Ah, so sometimes its worth it to take loans to embrace institutions. Also I heard that you can use development to decrease your embracing cost. How?

Well if you increase your dev in province WITH the institution present, it will increase the total part that has institution. But imo it's never worth. Only dev to spawn the institution if the spreading is too slow.

What is the tech 23 CB. And yeah that makes sense. And so admin eff. I am guessing is good. What is it exactly?

It gives you the imperialism and nationalism CB. Basicly the improved version of Deus Vult. You can DOW on every country and taking province is cheaper.
Admin eff. is a modifier reduce warcost, overexension, AE, coring cost and diplo annex cost. You get it by having absolutism and those 3 admin tech.

If you have 0 admin eff. 100 dev would be 100% OE, but if you have 50% admin eff 150 dev would be 100% OE. So basicly the higher the admin eff, the more stuff you can take.

 

[Adamgerd]

Well if you increase your dev in province WITH the institution present, it will increase the total part that has institution. But imo it's never worth. Only dev to spawn the institution if the spreading is too slow.

Ok, so it's rarely worth it

It gives you the imperialism and nationalism CB. Basicly the improved version of Deus Vult. You can DOW on every country and taking province is cheaper.
Admin eff. is a modifier reduce warcost, overexension, AE, coring cost and diplo annex cost. You get it by having absolutism and those 3 admin tech.

If you have 0 admin eff. 100 dev would be 100% OE, but if you have 50% admin eff 150 dev would be 100% OE. So basicly the higher the admin eff, the more stuff you can take.

Oh those CB's are at tech 23, I thought it was later. Yeah, Imperialism is such a good CB

 

[gia257]

Pick Humanist, lower autonomy everywhere once in Age of Absolutism. You don't want to be raising it if possible. Lowering it costs no mana and raises your absolutism fast.

I dare say there are other workable approaches but this is what I've found is most efficient. Potentially delay doing C&C until most of the +10 unrests have worn off.

nah just have a death wish, if you are gonna have a million rebels anyway might as well

Also income will shoot up once you lower autonomy everywhere so have more mercs with it

you either have quantity or admin, or both i guess, quantity will let you have more manpower so you dont need mercs, admin will let you have mercs for cheaper

you are ottoman though, you can pay for full merc army, other tags may have more trouble (eg all dev 3 land)

 

[SolSys]

Develop? With monarch points.

Personally, I only use development if I don't have any other options available for points [before hitting the cap]. I find conquering provinces with the institutions a better option.

And so 5 cavalry to 11 infantry is a waste then, I am guessing

Not necessarily. In the early-to-mid game cavalry is better than infantry stat-wise.
It does, however, cost much more. It's also why players who prefer mercs get them as infantry and use manpower for cavalry/artillery.

Morale, discipline, tactics are good, got it. How is one supposed to remember all this stuff, like tech, admin efficiency, whether ideas are better than techs. Do people just use an spreadsheet for all this?

The wiki is the place for that.
You'll probably find this helpful to pick units: https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_units
This section lists which improvement you get at which mil level: https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Technology#Cumulative_mil_tech_effects_to_army
It will help you estimate the differences in mil tech between you and the enemy.

 

[Adamgerd]

Personally, I only use development if I don't have any other options available for points [before hitting the cap]. I find conquering provinces with the institutions a better option.

Yeah, well I guess it also depends on whether you're playing a tall game or a wide game, i.e. merchant republics can only have 20 provinces, before getting debuffs

PNot necessarily. In the early-to-mid game cavalry is better than infantry stat-wise.
It does, however, cost much more. It's also why players who prefer mercs get them as infantry and use manpower for cavalry/artillery.

Ah.

PThe wiki is the place for that.
You'll probably find this helpful to pick units: https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Land_units
This section lists which improvement you get at which mil level: https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Technology#Cumulative_mil_tech_effects_to_army
It will help you estimate the differences in mil tech between you and the enemy.

Interesting, but about the table, so what is what. I am guessing combat width is something like HOI4 snd you can fit more units into one battle, and supply limit is with attrition,. But for example is fire or shock better?

 

[gia257]

They are the same, but fire hits first, shock after

 

[Adamgerd]

They are the same, but fire hits first, shock after

So is it better to have fire then as it hits first and shock only second?

 

[PhoenixG]

So is it better to have fire then as it hits first and shock only second?

Yup and cannons are all about fire. This is lots of people ditch cav later in the game, they have horrible fire pip/modifier and the front line is about protecting the cannons.

 

[Adamgerd]

Yup and cannons are all about fire. This is lots of people ditch cav later in the game, they have horrible fire pip/modifier and the front line is about protecting the cannons.

And so in the early game, it's good to have cav and infantry, in late game infantry and cannons, is that right?
And are morale and discipline the same, i.e. is 2.5% Discipline better/as good as/worse than 5% Morale? Also form searching, apparently improved war taxes gains you military points and gold at the same time, because it's -100%, which is the opposite of 0% and thus gives you the reverse amount. Also yeah I started a Venice run just now with this advice and to improve on trading and tall games. After all, Venice and it's government kind of limits you to build tall and trade.

 

[$ilent_$trider]

The higher the morale, the longer your army can fight. All things being equal, higher morale means more victories only because you lasted longer than your opponent.
Military tactics decrease the amount of damage your troops get.
Discipline applies as a bonus across the board on everything: morale damage, actual damage, defense from damage, defense from morale damage.

 

[Adamgerd]

The higher the morale, the longer your army can fight. All things being equal, higher morale means more victories only because you lasted longer than your opponent.

So is then discipline is better as it gives you a quicker victory and so then you don't lose as much manpower?

 

[$ilent_$trider]

Discipline is nice having, but it's almost never free.
By free, I mean stuff like high absolutism, the military advisor that gives it (because you will be hiring a military advisor anyway), national traditions and so on.
Most of the time, you can get the same bonus that discipline would give by staying ahead or on par with MIL tech.

Also, the next expansion will introduce the concept of army professionalism. Read the dev diary about it.

Edit: of course, if you and your opponent are both on the same level with MIL tech, that means that the one with the better army tradition and thus better general (because you recruit better generals with higher army tradition), will win battles.
Again, it's nice having discipline but it's only important when your opponent is as good as you.

 

[Sfan]

You understood it very well. Discipline and tactics save manpower and are better in longterm campaign, but morale wins battles. That's why morale tends to be more important early game when battles are close and you focus on that one war against an ennemy with a relatively close army size and no real forts to retreat behind. It's all about winning the first battle, chasing him until you stackwipe, and carpetsieging, and morale is king. Discipline becomes vastly superior later on. Sure, you can win a battle and lose slightly more men, and start a siege of a level 8 fort. But by the time you advanced slightly he comes back with all his morale back up, and you may win it again, and once again lose more men. But then he comes back, and after 10 forts, you'll eventually run out of manpower and money if both of you have similar strengths but he chose discipline and you chose morale. And in the contect of doing a WC, you will win every battle because you outnumber everyone you fight, so what matters is that you save up your resources.

As we mentioned catch up mechanics in techs, here is a perfect example from my current game:

This Admin tech costs me less than 140 admin points. Not having it earlier sure harms me a bit (textile manufactories are wonderful in my area), but I'll only be 2-3 years late on admin 17 by doing that, and this is the one I want at all cost. If I took 11 on time, then 12 on time, and so on and so on, not only would all of my techs have been more expensive because the neighbours bonus and spy network bonus would have been smaller, but I would also have delayed my admin ideas (which I was forced to take as third group because you can't convert provinces to animist without religious first), so I would have lost points, time, and maybe manpower from revolts, from not having reduced coring cost earlier, and even more monarch points for not having civil service before teching. So yes, I would have been earlier on 11 and 12, but I don't care. What matters is that with what I did I ensured I had tech 17 as early as possible.

There is NO way I could have hit tech 17 on time without intentionally delaying unnecessary admin techs, considering I forcespawned 3 institutions in tropical climate and cored 1000 dev, including a good part before I had admin ideas. Oh and I also got stolen about 500 admin by Ming.
That's why delaying tech is actually a way not to be behind in the longterm. Once again, the difficulty is to know which tech you can sacrifice, and there clearly is a tradeoff as my economy lags behind what it should.

Edit: It seems I was overly pessimistic, I can get it ahead of time.

To follow up with similar strats, as you notice I am intentionally falling behind in dip right now. I'm completing influence and integrating 3 vassals, which means I'll be able to max absolutism around 1630 by decreasing autonomy after the integrations. And then I'll use the same comeback mechanics to hit Dip 23 on time and overall save up thousands of monarch points (cheaper annexation because I will complete influence and will have Admin-Influence, then even cheaper annexation if I time it right because I'll use the absolutism of the first integration to finish the second,and of the second to finish the third, and cheaper tech because of neighbour bonus, spy network and more ideas, cheaper cores during the following years because I will have farmed absolutism).

 

[Vulkandrache]

Most of the advice given over the last page is good and correct and all that.
But you guys throw around actual numbers like candy.
Our OP needs better understanding of basic game mechanics before anything else.
More Practice and more reading up on things. And start looking for information yourself.
Be it the Wiki, the gamefiles directly or older forum posts. You are not the first person with those questions.

What is the tech 23 CB. And yeah that makes sense. And so admin eff. I am guessing is good. What is it exactly?

A line like that makes me really question how you could have thought about diving into a WC.
Not knowing what AdminEff does and how to get it is directly a no-go for WC. And not going and looking it up before coming back is even worse.
You cant wait for others to explain every detail to you, you need to learn how to learn.

To follow up with similar strats, as you notice I am intentionally falling behind in dip right now. I'm completing influence and integrating 3 vassals, which means I'll be able to max absolutism around 1630 by decreasing autonomy after the integrations. And then I'll use the same comeback mechanics to hit Dip 23 on time and overall save up thousands of monarch points (cheaper annexation because I will complete influence and will have Admin-Influence, then even cheaper annexation if I time it right because I'll use the absolutism of the first integration to finish the second,and of the second to finish the third, and cheaper tech because of neighbour bonus, spy network and more ideas, cheaper cores during the following years because I will have farmed absolutism).

If you read paragraphs like this always keep in mind that these people have 4-digit hours in the game and may or may not beworking towards a specific goal
which is why tactics like this are to be read carefully.

If you play a normal game as someone like the Ottomans you do not have to fall back in tech intentionally.
If it happens, for whatever reason, then evaluate why, check wether its really a problem and if it is find a way to make it not be.


To also give some pissing contest benchmarks i started my next OF yesterday. Since for Shia my choice was the Ottomans i went with that in spirit of this thread.

By 1470 i had recovered my cores, conquered Kosovo, gutted the Mamluks, defeated QQ to release Persia,
destroyd the first half of the Timurids, fough of a small coalition offensively, got lucky with Crimea and build a good 20 churches.

In 1504 Mehmet died at the impressive age of 72, by that point i had disinherited 4 people, the best of which was a 432, which would barely be acceptable as a last resort.


1517 i just took Tech 10 a year early because i cant spend the points to save my life.
Using the power of the Burghers i can take 3 Influence ideas at once.


Blue color means the province has the building already.
I would build them in Persia aswell preemtively but that would make them more money, giving me less loans to pay of.


Small coalitions come and go. The AE is as it should be.
A bit in Europe to tick down, and the ever shrinking Sunni hate me.
Ever since i unlocked Deus Vult i have been hitting Ethiopia aswell.


Hungary and Ajuuran got wrecked and just recently accepted Diplo Vassal, both with a good 20 provinces to reconquer.


Iraq exists as an OPM because they where Shia. They got to keep their last province so i could enforce Religion for next Ages objective.

Granada has been guaranteed Day1 and then forcefully vassalized by declaring on Tlemcen allied Morocco allied Granada. They are 45% at the start of the game. Every since they have been making claims on the Maghreb and every few years i send a small army over to clean up.
I would have liked to Diplovassal Baluchistan but Sind was too fast this time.
Its easy acces to Thatta for "Unify Islam".

 

[YuriiH]

For reference, this is my economy in peace time at high army maintenance

Oh, those Russians19+ forts...

Do you plan to be invaded?

 

[Adamgerd]

Oh, those Russians19+ forts...

Do you plan to be invaded?

Not expressly, why?