HARM - Overpowered?

[Alex_brunius]

Would still be interesting to see how you consider 130 armor brigades (including 30 heavy) on the east-front as logistically feasible for Germany on difficulty hard by 1940/41, when most other players have problems fielding more then a third of that amount on difficulty normal...

 

[Traks]

True true.
It is feasible only if Soviet player tries to defend western border with "not one step back" doctrine and falls easy prey.
If he retreats keeping at least 75% of troops alive, Germany with 130 tank divisions will completely run out of supply few provinces inside Soviet borders.

 

[JoeRambo]

Actually I am starting to wonder: are you guys building Infra in commie lands??? I was taking for granted the fact that one needs to build infra ( and to have associated high practical to make it happen ) if one wants to truly succeed on H/WH. With decent practical, infra building is ~0.25IC and 3 month affair, surely one can improve a lot of infra with ease?

 

[themousemaster]

Actually I am starting to wonder: are you guys building Infra in commie lands??? I was taking for granted the fact that one needs to build infra ( and to have associated high practical to make it happen ) if one wants to truly succeed on H/WH. With decent practical, infra building is ~0.25IC and 3 month affair, surely one can improve a lot of infra with ease?

You CAN, and I HAVE, but the problem is, even after the INFRA is built, it still takes time for it to "repair" to the level it was built to.

In a province where the INFRA started at 5, that's easy enough.

But as you push into Russia, you fight over INFRA-3 provinces, and by the time they are in your hands, they might very well be at INFRA 0.15.

Over the next 18 months you could drop 6 more levels of INFRA on that province, but will have only "repaired" back up to 3-ish.

So unless your plan (and I will say, against the AI and some human strats, this is entirely feasible) is to push to a certain point (usually a bunch of rivers), then hold up and build infra for a year (using the rivers to hold back the USSR, maybe do a couple small encirclements, etc), and then resume pushing...

You will still end up in supply trouble.

 

[Traks]

So unless your plan (and I will say, against the AI and some human strats, this is entirely feasible) is to push to a certain point (usually a bunch of rivers), then hold up and build infra for a year (using the rivers to hold back the USSR, maybe do a couple small encirclements, etc), and then resume pushing...

You will still end up in supply trouble.

And if you give Soviet human player 1 year of building, he will come back to bite you.
Plus, you can expect heavy Allied landings in France.
And Germany has troubles with metal and rares in long run.
Summer of 1942 is kinda deadline for Germany where you win or lose.

Additionally, supply routes switch automatically when you push forward, sometimes to very annoying provinces.

 

[JoeRambo]

I always found it imperative to build infra on hard+ mode. The way it is implemented ( non linear throughput gains ), makes it no brainer to build it along the way. 3 infra to 4 is like double throughput? Even innocent looking 6 Infra upgrade to 7 is ~35% difference.

Now 50 marm divs and 30 Harm divs would chew ~ 850 total supplies/fuel needed to transport. Sounds a lot for sure

 

[themousemaster]

Additionally, supply routes switch automatically when you push forward, sometimes to very annoying provinces.

this is true.. but my "infra builds" are unilateral. They can change the route whichever way they want, I'll be good ;p.


and as I said, its only valid vs "some" human strats. Most will indeed be a problem; its the MIL-heavy builds that RELY on your falling out of supply that this strat works wonders against. "Oh, you have another 200 divisions of MIL ready to stand in my way, because you think you will grind my supplies down deep in Russia? HA!"

Gotta keep your eye on them with your spies though. If you see your USSR opponent swap from many MIL to armor-or-air-heavy, let your current build of INFRA finish, then cancel the future ones. Also, go back on the attack... like, fast ;p.



As for allied landings... I tend to have eliminated UK before I tackle USSR normally anyway, but yes, that is definitely a strategic concern. Again, this is *not* a universal build.



It's like Vikings in Starcraft2. The only reason you should really ever build them is if the enemy is fielding Air that you need to counter, but if they do, hooboy can Vikings trash 'em.

 

[Alex_brunius]

Actually I am starting to wonder: are you guys building Infra in commie lands???

The problem is not only in "commie lands", it's outside Berlin aswell, where all supplies and fuel to your entire east-front needs to travel through 2-3 provinces.

The maximum draw for your entire army on a front can't exceed around 1000 (750 on Hard) per day and province the net is wide. 130 brigades of armor including the extra tax for the way to them easily consumes that much supplies and fuel on their own!!!

A few provinces away the net is 3-5 provinces wide where supplies are forced to pass in occupied Poland where the provinces only has half capacity each 500 (400 on Hard).

infra building is ~0.25IC and 3 month affair

So, does this mean you wait 15 months with advancing after going halfway to leave time for infrastructure to improve from level 5 to 10?

I always found it imperative to build infra on hard+ mode. The way it is implemented ( non linear throughput gains ), makes it no brainer to build it along the way. 3 infra to 4 is like double throughput? Even innocent looking 6 Infra upgrade to 7 is ~35% difference.

Now 50 marm divs and 30 Harm divs would chew ~ 850 total supplies/fuel needed to transport. Sounds a lot for sure

Going from three to four infra changes the supplies + fuel you can transport from around 40 to around 70 if the wiki is correct, the exact increase should be 77.8% but that doesn't matter, neither can of them can supply even a 10:th of your armor alone...

 

[themousemaster]

It is true that INFRA upgrading is exponential though, as one part of the equation is power-based...

Specifically, throughput's base value is

4 * (1 + modifiers) * OAC * infra²


So while each point of INFRA adds less of a PERCENT of supplies than the one before it, its actually true that each point allows MORE brigades to be supplied than the one before.


Granted, having the time to upgrade from 4 to 10 either means you are playing the AI, vs a VERY specific target,... or as NatCHI ;p

 

[BigPoppa1111]

It's like Vikings in Starcraft2. The only reason you should really ever build them is if the enemy is fielding Air that you need to counter, but if they do, hooboy can Vikings trash 'em.

Mutas own Vikings every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[JoeRambo]

The maximum draw for your entire army on a front can't exceed around 1000 (750 on Hard) per day and province the net is wide. 130 brigades of armor including the extra tax for the way to them easily consumes that much supplies and fuel on their own!!!

The limit per province is ~800 sure. Every province around capital can pump out max supplies, so theoretical limit towards the front is in thousands! It can get bottle-necked somewhere, as per prov capacity is halved in Poland/SU, but still, there is no technical limit as long as your supply is not going through a single path. I've seen quite a few paths, sure they have minds of their own, but each can pass supplies.

So that's where infra building is golden, I start it immediately I occupy Poland in 1939, and by the time of declaration I have almost perfect infra ready ( and practical hot for upcoming SU campaign).

Granted, having the time to upgrade from 4 to 10 either means you are playing the AI, vs a VERY specific target,... or as NatCHI ;p

So, does this mean you wait 15 months with advancing after going halfway to leave time for infrastructure to improve from level 5 to 10?

Going from three to four infra changes the supplies + fuel you can transport from around 40 to around 70 if the wiki is correct, the exact increase should be 77.8% but that doesn't matter, neither can of them can supply even a 10:th of your armor alone...

Here lies the flaw of your thinking - waiting for something, and why for 10? maybe 5.15 is already enough, and 6.45 will handle future needs when battle for Stalingrad will start? The thing is, paths are multiple, supplies flow in rivers, so upgrading infra can have positive results and very fast. Consider this: if you upgraded those paths by 1 level and started at levels 4-6, your total network capacity jumped by 50%. All that in ~4 months, and effortlessly if you are prepared to build infra.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

The limit per province is ~800 sure. Every province around capital can pump out max supplies, so theoretical limit towards the front is in thousands! It can get bottle-necked somewhere, as per prov capacity is halved in Poland/SU, but still, there is no technical limit as long as your supply is not going through a single path. I've seen quite a few paths, sure they have minds of their own, but each can pass supplies.

So that's where infra building is golden, I start it immediately I occupy Poland in 1939, and by the time of declaration I have almost perfect infra ready ( and practical hot for upcoming SU campaign).





Here lies the flaw of your thinking - waiting for something, and why for 10? maybe 5.15 is already enough, and 6.45 will handle future needs when battle for Stalingrad will start? The thing is, paths are multiple, supplies flow in rivers, so upgrading infra can have positive results and very fast. Consider this: if you upgraded those paths by 1 level and started at levels 4-6, your total network capacity jumped by 50%. All that in ~4 months, and effortlessly if you are prepared to build infra.

Please don´t get me wrong but it is not, both the themousemaster and Alex_brunius are right.
There is always a bottleneck for the bulk of the supplies; the maximum amount of supplies/fuel available in the front lines is limited by the maximum throughput that a single level 10 infra can deliver (assuming that you have level 10 infra along the path the supply system choses to do the heavy lifting); that is why ports and especially air supply are so important in this game. Turn on the supply map mode and examine it carefully and you’ll see what we mean.

 

[Lord Curlyton]

Yeah the supplies are always going to try to find the most efficient path to the unit(s) in need, but until you get closer to the front that means that there is generally going to be a 2-3 province wide at most "highway" that the supplies will travel down before finally breaking off. I once built an entire panzer army in FtM and while it smashed the Soviets something fierce, by the time Moscow fell I think a good 50% or more of the Heer was under or out of supply/fuel. The reason it is so very useful to get L10 ports is that you can create a recalculation by making a pile of supplies at the port that the front then uses as at least part of its supply. Same goes for air supply. Ignoring the transfer cost and limitations of roads are wonderful. There's a reason a Soviet player doesn't blanket L10 infra across the steppes (not least being why make it easier on the Germans).

 

[Alex_brunius]

The limit per province is ~800 sure. Every province around capital can pump out max supplies, so theoretical limit towards the front is in thousands! It can get bottle-necked somewhere, as per prov capacity is halved in Poland/SU, but still, there is no technical limit as long as your supply is not going through a single path.

The thing is this is not a theoretical game, what matters is how it works out in practice.

In practice you want a big air-force (hundreds of supplies), a huge tank force (1000+ supplies), infantry with ART and AT to cover the front (many hundreds more). Then you factor in mud and supply tax extra cost.

There is no way to know how the game reliably will handle supplies. You can't be sure that it won't limit you to two major highways through Poland limited at ~400 each even with lvl 10 infra, or that it will use the provinces you upgraded or the ones you captured with high infra.

Here lies the flaw of your thinking - waiting for something, and why for 10? maybe 5.15 is already enough, and 6.45 will handle future needs when battle for Stalingrad will start?

Actually according to the wiki it's rounded down, so 5.15 is the same as 5 and 6.45 is the same as 6.

The thing is, paths are multiple, supplies flow in rivers, so upgrading infra can have positive results and very fast. Consider this: if you upgraded those paths by 1 level and started at levels 4-6, your total network capacity jumped by 50%. All that in ~4 months, and effortlessly if you are prepared to build infra.

And if your unlucky the supplysystem got a quirk and decided to either route that path through the Pirpet marsh with infra 3 instead or somewhere else where you didn't upgrade, making your entire investment useless.

So the only solution is really to upgrade all of the provinces, (many 100:eds) to be sure.
And meanwhile when you are upgrading infra all your enemies, USA, UK and USSR are building forces with their IC.


While HARM are finally powerful and worth building I don't think their overpowered nor that their best place is in major numbers on the East front for Germany.

 

[JoeRambo]

Please don´t get me wrong but it is not, both the themousemaster and Alex_brunius are right.
There is always a bottleneck for the bulk of the supplies; the maximum amount of supplies/fuel available in the front lines is limited by the maximum throughput that a single level 10 infra can deliver (assuming that you have level 10 infra along the path the supply system choses to do the heavy lifting); that is why ports and especially air supply are so important in this game. Turn on the supply map mode and examine it carefully and you’ll see what we mean.

Can someone else comment on this? Especially "the single level 10 infra can deliver" part? I call bullshit

I did the following test: loaded post SU defeat game, removed l8 commanders from AGs. Total supply usage rose up, but SU armies are clearly supplied from 2 root provinces near Berlin, each delivering 1000 supplies+.

Actually according to the wiki it's rounded down, so 5.15 is the same as 5 and 6.45 is the same as 6.

According to game tooltips it is not, but wiki is always right. Anyway good way to ignore main idea and pick on hypothetical detail inaccuracy.
There must be other guys in this forum that are building plenty of infra in SU and having supply problems only in winter. At least I have been doing it for ages.

 

[feye1]

Few HArm in the east are useful.. breakthrough etc.. just not too much cuz of possible supply issues yes. What Alex says, if u have bad luck the game just takes another supply route and most of ur investment was for nothing. Happened to me couple of times


Where you can use the other HArm? In the west.. with two/three HArm corps you can neutralize really a lot of Allied troops invading France/Netherlands. Especially when you have a couple of infantry corps there too.

The HArm might even have a use in Italy, but be careful with terrain there.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

Especially "the single level 10 infra can deliver" part? I call bullshit

This is the sort of attitude that has been slowly but steadily pushing me away from this forum.
Here is a link to a AAR chapter (Decisions) where the guy had level 10 infra everywhere; despite this the guy, needing over 2000 in supply when only around 70% of his army was deployed only had access to 1240 because at some point the supply system only uses a single "lane" do deliver the bulk of the supplies. This happens with every single country in HOI3. BTW late game=better supply techs=slightly higher throughput.

 

[Wminus]

Well, "this guy" (ie, YOU) was playing Portugal. One cannot compare Portugal with Germany, because the longer the supply lines the more fucked up they get.

Now I haven't played HoI3 since last summer, but both infrastructure building and supplying by air worked perfectly in my experience. However, I would like to see a savegame concerning the 150 armour/HA brigades in the east.

 

[JoeRambo]

I can't comment on how PI implemented the supply system, it had major defects in the past, nowadays it is better but still crazy. While your example might be true due to some geographical bottleneck ( for example algo does not create additional routes since it is bottlenecked in narrow place on Iberian peninsula, but will create more if streams are wide enough apart), but in SU it is not true. I have created a test game, built nearly 30 divs of 4xHARM after SU defeat. The sum of total flow towards SU is ~2k supplies.


Anyway this discussion has moved into academic and is starting to miss key points:

1) I am not advocating building 100marm + 30harm or claiming they can be supplied in SU hinterland. However even on H/WH GER player can supply a rather large army as long as he is prepared to invest into supplying them ( be it TRA and/or building additional infra/ports etc). But there is nothing special about the supply/fuel usage of HARM divisions, no order of magnitude difference here, just a drawback to be aware to deal with.

2) Despite Alex horror stories about all his supplies being routed through single battle worn province in Pripiat marches and all this academic discussion about upper limits and limitations in general, the following is true:
a) Infra building is very effective at improving supply situation on average, you need to build a lot of it, but each point built is supporting more and more troops.
b) It's average that really matters, as long as your troops have tiny slice of supplies they will be just fine.
c) Like posts in his thread have shown - you can quickly double your capacity. Even if AI won't choose this province now, maybe it will choose some other prov that you've also improved, or choose it some day after after paths get recalculated. It's the magnitude of improvement that is important.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

Well, "this guy" (ie, YOU) was playing Portugal. One cannot compare Portugal with Germany, because the longer the supply lines the more fucked up they get.

Now I haven't played HoI3 since last summer, but both infrastructure building and supplying by air worked perfectly in my experience. However, I would like to see a savegame concerning the 150 armour/HA brigades in the east.

Once you move like ~10 provinces into enemy territory (or ~10 provinces away from your core IC) you will unavoidably see what I showed in those pictures; it does not matter if you're playing Portugal, Germany or Tibet. Furthermore once your supply lines are going through enemy territory you will see your supply throughput cut in half. BTW I keep seeing lots of complains of how bad the HOI3 supply system is ; I actually consider it excellent, I reached the conclusion that the only thing bad is most players dreadful knowledge about it. Sometimes the misinformation in this forum about how the supply system works is so big that it "makes my hair hurt".