Hardest start?

[TheMeInTeam]

I would say Jangladesh or Jaisalmer, Georgia is somewhat hard but you can take out Aq Qoyunlu and vassalize/annex Trebizond and if you're lucky, you can ally Lith and have him not go into a PU.

One of those is a vassal, but the one that isn't can just morale-dive people with low upkeep (even bigger nations like Sind) and win. Alternatively, you can do some silly things like getting military access through to Vijay and piling on Bahmanis, vassaling them over two wars via breaking truce . As a vassal you need support or to wait until Delhi loses a war badly and then jump in, and would need at least a little luck such that the Timurids don't just come stomp you instantly.

Kashmir is actually brutal too, since Chagatai will declare within a month or two, and you can go nowhere.

I would say Jangladesh or Jaisalmer, Georgia is somewhat hard but you can take out Aq Qoyunlu and vassalize/annex Trebizond and if you're lucky, you can ally Lith and have him not go into a PU.

You can only take out Aq Qoyunulu if lucky. It's their best route, but meaningless if Cremea + GH or even just GH + Qara Qoyunulu jump you. Loans only take you so far.

 

[unmerged(804580)]

I played both as Sukhothai and Khmer, though in 1.3... so this is a bit speculative. I love them both; they're shades of once mighty empires and the upstart Ayutthaya must go down.

Khmer isn't that bad. It's relatively strong. Ayutthaya is likely to enter alliance with Dai Viet, and don't declare on Day 1. Pile some gold and wait for everyone to get their alliances going - which sounds counterintuitive, but Lan Xang and Champa are likely to se DV as rival and deny the access, whereas if you declare on Day 1 then they will get called in nonetheless and march down. If anyone supports your independence, so much the better but hopefully Lan Xang will stay the hell out of the equation. You don't want them to support you and get involved, otherwise DV will march through their land. (Rival them; you can't be friends with them anyways, since you have a core there.) Ayutthaya is likely to send a gift at least once, so mercpile on them and hope for the best, and take your core Khorat in the mean time.

Sukhothai is a bit more luck-based. The personal union is impossible to break forcefully, though there might be a way now due to the support independence feature. I played Sukhothai twice, and the PU broke before 1500 both times naturally as Ayutthaya is kind of surrounded by enemies. (It's the local small-scale equivalent of France) The problem is the PU timer is set to begin in 1438, so Ayutthaya can click the integration button on 1488, which might require more than a bit of luck to make it dissolve naturally. Shan was an important ally in both campaigns, and Zhou in the second one when they revolted out of Ming. The interesting thing about Sukhothai was that the map would change completely by the time you're independent, and everything will need to be figured out as you watch the game unfolding itself while waiting for Ayutthaya to lose the PU...

That said, if OP is OK with Albania and Chimu, playing as a vassal or junior partner isn't going to make a lot of differences. My suggestion for his next challenge would be Ashanti - you have a gold mine there, but your only neighbor is Mali and you're animist.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Can Sukhothai do the "open borders until somewhere remote" --> "Declare independence, then morale-dive some far-away OPM and annex it"?

It might be possible to get Ayuthaya to accept your home province, after which you could just turn around and declare independence again, and them being unable to reach you you'll "win" it .

 

[unmerged(804580)]

Can Sukhothai do the "open borders until somewhere remote" --> "Declare independence, then morale-dive some far-away OPM and annex it"?

It might be possible to get Ayuthaya to accept your home province, after which you could just turn around and declare independence again, and them being unable to reach you you'll "win" it .

What do you mean by open borders? Getting access all the way to a remote OPM? It might work, actually, though I'm not sure which one. (Escaping to Venad doesn't sound that promising either though. The problem is the Chinese tech group sucks compared to Indian or Muslim, so going India is just as suicidal..)

My first campaign was actually a runaway strategy. Getting FBR doesn't work, since you need a port linked to your capital. I DoW'd OPM Arakan, got FBR from Ceylon to core it, and move my capital there in order to be able to colonize from there. I relocated capital to Hawaii just for lol.

It didn't work the second time, since Arakan didn't exist anymore. I DoW'd Ayutthaya to make my way into Ratchaburi and Ligore, except then Ayutthaya, Pegu and Aceh all dogpiled on me. The protection from Zhou was critical, and although Aceh did take both ports, I managed to colonize Palawan and Visayas in the mean time and go from there. The capital relocated to Visayas, then to Demak (as I lost it to Portugal) but finally back to Sukhothai, and I'm proud I never lost the starting province.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

What do you mean by open borders? Getting access all the way to a remote OPM? It might work, actually, though I'm not sure which one. (Escaping to Venad doesn't sound that promising either though. The problem is the Chinese tech group sucks compared to Indian or Muslim, so going India is just as suicidal..)

I was thinking more Jaisalmer or Multan than Venad or Kochin, but yes that's the idea. Nepal and Kangra are worth considering too.

Chinese isn't a serious barrier in India IMO. You can use infantry that's slightly better pip-wise until tech 5, and as time goes on simply avoid taking any military ideas and wind up with a significant advantage. I deliberately westernized late with Taungu. At tech 12 still Chinese I just walked into Vijaynagar and blasted them to smithereens (they were tech 9 or 10 with military ideas). Any unit upgrade pip break point will let you smash the AI if it takes any military ideas at all. Chinese is 2 pips worse at 12, but their 12 is >>> India's 5-11, and comically from 12-20 at even tech they're stronger than Muslim by pip count, significantly so. That shouldn't be a serious issue. 18 pips is a BIG jump up from India's tech 5 units. So much that you'll have a window where it feels like you're western.

Besides, if you're willing to jump into wars vs depleted targets for vassals, it's not like you'll need to do much fighting early.

 

[knoddy]

Mongol Khanate.

Starts as vassal, annexation begins almost immediately, you will get DoW by manchu, while your overlord is off fighting other hordes, and quite often he wont help. So you have to fight against a bigger enemey an if you survive you wont even get anything for it.

As soon as you are out of war you have to declare independence or your overlord will get allies. you take a huge stability hit for declaring, then you have to Scorched Earth your way to a peace which usually gets you 1 province IF your lucky. then as soon as you are free Machu usually comes in for another peace.

You have no allies around you, nobody likes you, you have almost no cash flow. you are steppe nomad which makes your tech bad! you enemies have bigger forcelimits more manpower and more money than you.

you could probably do the relocate bull but thats just gamey and lame.

 

[unmerged(295334)]

Play multiplayer. England, Muscovy, and Austria can all be hard starts when you actually fight something that can fight back.

 

[Ololorium]

Novgorod. Seriously. I know that it isn't an OPM vassal, but it's surrounded by rivals and there is NO way to beat Muscovy other than extraordinary luck (Muscovy is at war with a horde PLUS Lithuania agrees to be your ally and doesn't fall under a PU during the war PLUS three or four consecutive battles with divine dice rolls to fight back that Muscovian stack vith 4/5 leader). And that's for only your first war.

 

[Great One]

I haven't played Salzburg, but in every game the AI seems to take them out very early. A OPM stuck between Austria and Bavaria doesn't seem like a walk in the park. Sure, you can play the diplomacy game to have them fight each other which will likely get you stuck in an unwelcome war at some point.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Novgorod. Seriously. I know that it isn't an OPM vassal, but it's surrounded by rivals and there is NO way to beat Muscovy other than extraordinary luck (Muscovy is at war with a horde PLUS Lithuania agrees to be your ally and doesn't fall under a PU during the war PLUS three or four consecutive battles with divine dice rolls to fight back that Muscovian stack vith 4/5 leader). And that's for only your first war.

Haha no. Try Mongol Khanate and tell me Novgorod's harder. Don't be silly. Their winters + scorched earth are so nasty they can beat Muscovy without help, but if you bleed down Muscovy's forces, the hordes will be happy to dogpile in separate wars, which will only make it easier to take then feed your future vassal later.

 

[Golladan]

I would say Ryuku is the hardest.

Don't confuse Ryukyu world conquest with just a regular Ryukyu game.

 

[JStrayer]

What about the small nations like Dulkadir that Ottomon have reconquest on.

 

[Ololorium]

I haven't played the Mongol Khanate, but I am sure that Novgorod game is extremely hard. Winters work both ways, and Muscovy can pretty easily annihilate any forces you can gather despite SE or anything (TONS of manpower + a lot of money to buy mercs + divine leaders). In the first war if the Muscovian stack catches you, you can as well quit.
Ironically, "very hard" countries like Albania have their hints which help them to survive, but for seemingly not-so-bad Novgorod there is no easy way.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I haven't played the Mongol Khanate, but I am sure that Novgorod game is extremely hard. Winters work both ways, and Muscovy can pretty easily annihilate any forces you can gather despite SE or anything (TONS of manpower + a lot of money to buy mercs + divine leaders). In the first war if the Muscovian stack catches you, you can as well quit.
Ironically, "very hard" countries like Albania have their hints which help them to survive, but for seemingly not-so-bad Novgorod there is no easy way.

I wouldn't rate them as "easy", just nowhere near hardest. To beat Muscovy solo requires careful control (you're right about not getting caught), excellent understanding of scorched earth + how to keep the AI in it with stack movement manipulation. However, it's a 1-war wonder in terms of difficulty. You win that first war (and IMO, ally Lithuania with improved relations + guarantee to get them even temporarily might help), and the difficulty just deflates to nothing. Muscovy will never recover, and you will then have the same ability to cakewalk through Asia.

That said, if you survive & thrive as Mongol Khanate, going back to Novgorod will *feel* easy at that point. After all, you don't have to fight a shock v general + twice your forces multiple times in a row w/o allies while starting as a vassal.

 

[Avalen]

Why would you need luck? East Frisia as well as Urbino are candidates for everybody to easily join the HRE.

Because random major nations have a nasty tendency to crash your party even with the day 1 DOW.

 

[lordelenath]

Never had that happen to me as of yet, as long as I really DoW on day 1. But yeah, that would obviously be painful and might be down to luck indeed.

 

[Hakairyu]

Let's begin by claiming that any independent country is easier than any vassal country if we are speaking survivability (I still maintain my position that Novgorod is harder than Perm, but worst case scenario with most pushovers that are independent is to migrate or to do the northernlion (conquer Ireland on day 1)). Most vassals aren't that hard, Perm for example has huge potential and MK has been done quite a few times before. How hard it gets is a function of how small you are and how isolated from your overlord you are not, save for special cases like "the oirats get a 5 shock general because". So the hardest vassal should be someone who is in the middle of their liege and an OPM. Therefore, french minors like Orléans. You can't attack anyone, you can't even build boats, and France has the added bonus of having a core on your land so he will probably outright annex you if you rebel. Then again you have the minute chance of France going to war with Provence early on and if you claimed those and begin the sieges of Maine and Anjou, maybe you'll be the one occupying the land (? France still has cores on that shit, not sure what would happen). So maybe Bourbon is harder, seeing as Burgundy tends to either beat France or stalemate them if the inheritance doesn't fire (which makes France surround you) and you won't have a chance to negotiate separately with Auvergne if you declare independence.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

There does need to be a distinction between "amount of skill required to succeed" and just "#attempts until it's possible, but relatively straightforward when things are lucky for you".

 

[quoms]

Why would you need luck? East Frisia as well as Urbino are candidates for everybody to easily join the HRE.

Because France takes ages to peace out of the HYW and you can't declare war before then. If Oldenburg or Munster conquers East Frisia in that first eight to ten years there's not much you can do.

 

[quoms]

Therefore, french minors like Orléans. You can't attack anyone, you can't even build boats, and France has the added bonus of having a core on your land so he will probably outright annex you if you rebel. Then again you have the minute chance of France going to war with Provence early on and if you claimed those and begin the sieges of Maine and Anjou, maybe you'll be the one occupying the land (? France still has cores on that shit, not sure what would happen).

This is what I'm saying, and I think Auvergne is the worst-off French vassal due to its 3 base tax and mediocre leader (Orleans has a worse leader but much more money). Also, as a vassal you always occupy provinces in the name of your overlord. If you want to gain any land you have to DOW France, DOW someone else a month later, and beat them before France sieges you down.