Hardest start?

[quoms]

So I've just come off a couple pretty successful games as Chimu and Albania. Although neither was exactly a WC - in particular, becoming Emperor as Albania turned out to be an awful mistake and set me back pretty far - both those starts are actually very straightforward and easily replicable. With Chimu you have to reroll for Inca's personality and take out an appalling number of 1g loans but that's about it. So I'm looking for something tougher.

Right now 'tougher' means Auvergne. I started developing my strategy with Foix but switched to Auvergne since they have a worse monarch, lower base tax, and border Burgundy. Like Chimu it requires a little luck and a lot of patience, but at this point I'm able to pretty reliably take and core East Frisia and join the HRE for Imperial Integrity, and from there probably move my capital to North America like a wuss since France doesn't seem to want to leave me with more than one European province. I haven't actually gotten that far yet but in principle it should work.

So is this the hardest start in the game? I'm still not sure if I can take enough of North America to beat France before they annex me (I know from my last game as Shawnee that this kind of spare money and manpower requires most of the eastern half of the continent). On the other hand, the overseas annexation malus should shut that down anyway. We'll see.

But I ask because I don't really see, say, Naxos or Corfu AARs out there. Those two might or might not be tougher given that they start out with boats and coring range. Is there any nation in the game that starts out in arguably worse position than Auvergne?

 

[PedroVargas]

I find starts as vassall to be generally very hard. Chimu, Navarra, Granada - all relatively easy once you get a good start. But as a vassall or in a PU, I tend to miss the best timing for Independence. I even screwed up Sweden a lot in earlier games ^^ So yes, Auvergne is probably awful, 1.4 might make it slightly easier if someone powerful supports your independence.

When / how did you break free?

 

[oblio-]

Really hard means in my opinion at least 3 from the following list:
1. non-western (especially 60%+ tech penalty)
2. bad government form
3. land locked
4. at least 1-2-3 powerful neighbors or colonizers, especially several with missions to claim your land (preferably neighbors of a different religion)
5. vassal start

The next step, close to impossible, adds:
6. starts at war or with very high revolt risk
7. low base tax

Now try to find countries that fit these patterns. The easiest way to find them it is to look for non-western land locked vassals.

Mongol Khanate seems to fit the bill, for example (but it has too many provinces for my liking)

 

[dirtInfestor5]

I would say Ryuku is the hardest.

 

[Avernite]

I haven't tried Albania, but I'd think 'not able to really do anything about being annexed' sounds hard.

 

[oblio-]

I would say Ryuku is the hardest.

I'll try Ryukyu, but it doesn't look inherently hard - am I missing something? Being on an island is a bit easier than being landlocked (due to the terrain penalties when landing).

I haven't tried Albania, but I'd think 'not able to really do anything about being annexed' sounds hard.

There's a strat to go through Serbia and invade Bosnia ASAP.
Albania is:
a) a monarchy
b) Eastern Tech
c) Catholic
which makes the longer run quite easy compared to other countries.

 

[lordelenath]

I've found that every european OPM that can join the HRE is actually not that hard in the end and just requires a bit of luck at the start. But personally I stopped looking for "harder, tougher, impossible(er)" and instead invent either house rules or personal goals for my games since I found all those "hard starts" are pretty similar once you've done it a few times.

 

[Garevel]

Ever tried another bookmark? For example Qasim Khanate later on. Vasall of full expanded Russia. One provide. Landlocked.
Impossible, in my opinion

 

[Dakilla TM]

Try Khemer. You're not an OPM but you're a vassal of Ayuthaya, which likes to have lots of alliances.

 

[quoms]

Try Khemer. You're not an OPM but you're a vassal of Ayuthaya, which likes to have lots of alliances.

Or Sukhothai, who I had completely forgotten about.

 

[quoms]

So yes, Auvergne is probably awful, 1.4 might make it slightly easier if someone powerful supports your independence.

When / how did you break free?

1.4 actually makes it harder because of the bug where your independence war ends if any of your allies peace out. 1.5 will fix that. I haven't broken free yet but my plan right now is to colonise North America until I have enough troops to wipe the French every time they try to land a stack. Even with 25 warscore bigger countries tend not to peace out until you've done that a couple times.

 

[AndreasPhokas]

What about taungoo granted they have decent NI's I need to play as em one day.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I would say Ryuku is the hardest.

Ryukyu is very easy. Nobody has a CB on you early, Ming will give you military access, and you can afford 6 units.

Just walk to where the AI is fighting a war and pile on whoever is losing for a vassal. Ryukyu can easily set up shop in India or Southeast Asia, or in the rare cases that say Manchu gets completely rolled by Oirate or vice-versa they can even take over up there, and wind up not too far behind Qing.

Once you've stacked no-CB + truce break to get a vassal or so, just let rebels break your 1 province and you're back go 0 stab and WE. Yes, you lose out on prestige and legitimacy, neither of which you need until you start annexing later. WC with Ryukyu is borderline impossible now, but becoming an Asian superpower is easy; you don't have any immediate threats to declare on you and even 1 cog is enough to ship your forces into Ming + get MA with anybody else you'd need.

Ever tried another bookmark? For example Qasim Khanate later on. Vasall of full expanded Russia. One provide. Landlocked.
Impossible, in my opinion

The only thing I could think to do would be to get military access somewhere remote, declare independence, declare war + siege/annex someone before they get to you + occupy your capitol. After doing so, declare independence again, and use the ticking war score @ a capitol they can't reach to secure freedom. If you want to be really extreme jump into Africa or something .

Or Sukhothai, who I had completely forgotten about.

Khmer is stronger, but Sukhothai is under PU rather than vassal, and thus has much longer before being wiped. While Ayuthaya has some alliances, it has enemies also, and their support + a little scorched earth is usually enough.

What about taungoo granted they have decent NI's I need to play as em one day.

Taungu is easy because Pegu + usually Lan Na will support your independence, meaning you can declare it almost instantly, form up with Pegu's troops, and win without even going over your force limit. Not only can you win, you can take your culture provinces, break truce, and vassal Shan right after. With that + Arakan's land (also your culture + religion) you can actually annex Shan, have access to the Andamans for colonization, have good allies, and still have your infantry bonuses. Despite starting a vassal IMO they're easier than some of the independent OPMs nearby .

 

[oblio-]

Ryukyu is very easy. Nobody has a CB on you early, Ming will give you military access, and you can afford 6 units.

Just walk to where the AI is fighting a war and pile on whoever is losing for a vassal. Ryukyu can easily set up shop in India or Southeast Asia, or in the rare cases that say Manchu gets completely rolled by Oirate or vice-versa they can even take over up there, and wind up not too far behind Qing.

Once you've stacked no-CB + truce break to get a vassal or so, just let rebels break your 1 province and you're back go 0 stab and WE. Yes, you lose out on prestige and legitimacy, neither of which you need until you start annexing later. WC with Ryukyu is borderline impossible now, but becoming an Asian superpower is easy; you don't have any immediate threats to declare on you and even 1 cog is enough to ship your forces into Ming + get MA with anybody else you'd need.



The only thing I could think to do would be to get military access somewhere remote, declare independence, declare war + siege/annex someone before they get to you + occupy your capitol. After doing so, declare independence again, and use the ticking war score @ a capitol they can't reach to secure freedom. If you want to be really extreme jump into Africa or something .



Khmer is stronger, but Sukhothai is under PU rather than vassal, and thus has much longer before being wiped. While Ayuthaya has some alliances, it has enemies also, and their support + a little scorched earth is usually enough.



Taungu is easy because Pegu + usually Lan Na will support your independence, meaning you can declare it almost instantly, form up with Pegu's troops, and win without even going over your force limit. Not only can you win, you can take your culture provinces, break truce, and vassal Shan right after. With that + Arakan's land (also your culture + religion) you can actually annex Shan, have access to the Andamans for colonization, have good allies, and still have your infantry bonuses. Despite starting a vassal IMO they're easier than some of the independent OPMs nearby .

This support for independence is in Conquest of Paradise, right? Because I don't see it anywhere in the interface

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yes, support is cop afaik, but can't you cancel annexation instead if it isn't available?

 

[Yiyo]

Georgia, orthodox surrounded by hordes...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Georgia, orthodox surrounded by hordes...

I second this. It's harder than most OPMs out there, and if you get unlucky it's virtually impossible to survive. Crimea, Ottomans, Golden Horde, and Qara Qoyunulu all in separate wars on you inside 1-2 years is brutal. You can't get military access with neighbors, and your shipping is limited with few cogs and no time for new ones to finish, assuming one of the coastal nations don't sink you anyway. And who will ally you? Haha!

 

[Dr. Fill]

I would say Jangladesh or Jaisalmer, Georgia is somewhat hard but you can take out Aq Qoyunlu and vassalize/annex Trebizond and if you're lucky, you can ally Lith and have him not go into a PU.

 

[Avalen]

A modded-in Iceland was pretty horrible. Getting independent from the Kalmar Union with two 1-base tax provinces in the middle of nowhere with no navy is a challenge and a half. I did it a couple of times and the wars ended with me having anywhere between 100 and 300 loans. The only thing that makes it even possible is the fact that the Danes and Norwegians are unwilling to commit full force to Iceland.

The Knights is also pretty hard but a lucky day 1 no CB conquest of some OPM can set you off to a good start fairly easily.

 

[lordelenath]

Why would you need luck? East Frisia as well as Urbino are candidates for everybody to easily join the HRE.