Hardest nation to play as in Europe?

[Clownie]

What about all the possible release as vassal on day one options to play?

Wales and Cornwall are bad, but not as bad as Yaroslavl. Worse than Foix, though. Northumberland is probably worse off than the Gaels, but still not as bad as Yaroslavl. Armenia's not that bad if you can get over the core-creation cost in the Caucasus.

Saruhan is pretty bad. Similar position to Yaroslavl — they might get the Mamluks in on their shenanigans though, which are a stronger opponent to the Ottomans than Novgorod is to Muscovy.

Danzig is easy. Krakow is comparable to French minors or Pskov. Ruthenian minors are easy. Tirol is easy... Did I miss any?

edit: I apologise to any Gaels who might have been offended by my referring to Brythonics as Gaels, but will leave my mistake for posterity.

 

[CaptainChiatrol]

Wales and Cornwall are bad, but not as bad as Yaroslavl. Worse than Foix, though. Northumberland is probably worse off than the Gaels, but still not as bad as Yaroslavl. Armenia's not that bad if you can get over the core-creation cost in the Caucasus.

Saruhan is pretty bad. Similar position to Yaroslavl — they might get the Mamluks in on their shenanigans though, which are a stronger opponent to the Ottomans than Novgorod is to Muscovy.

Danzig is easy. Krakow is comparable to French minors or Pskov. Ruthenian minors are easy. Tirol is easy... Did I miss any?

edit: I apologise to any Gaels who might have been offended by my referring to Brythonics as Gaels, but will leave my mistake for posterity.

Hamburg has unique ideas and can be released as he hansa but they have awesome land for a OPM so they are pretty easy. I hadn't messed around with the others. I imagine france releasing someone if they have a OPM and playing as them would be hard because of lucky nation BS

 

[juckil]

Surely its definitely Albania, I mean they start at war with the Ottomans!

 

[Sharples88]

Surely its definitely Albania, I mean they start at war with the Ottomans!

All you need to do is siege one provience on Bosnia and once they siege your capital, you'll just concede defeat/give them money.

From then on just expand into Bosnia, Ragusa and Serbia. Especially controlling the Ragusan trade node. And you have the best leader in the game at the start, not to mention a badass 5-5-5.

Obviously avoid Ottomans at all cost in the first war, if your army gets destroyed then you've got no hope.

Well anyhow I think I plan on playing Yaroslavl. Since they're pretty much doomed from the start... and if Lithuania gets PU'ed. Yeah you're dead. It's going to be fun!

 

[Pilot00]

If we take vassals into account Id say Athens.

On the same boat but a bit easier are Achea and Morea (either later start or Byz/Otto releases).

An OPM which can access Urbino can either converts or is christian though cannot be considered 'difficult' with HRE shenanigans.

My suggestions OFC dont take the HRE thing into account.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If we take vassals into account Id say Athens.

On the same boat but a bit easier are Achea and Morea (either later start or Byz/Otto releases).

An OPM which can access Urbino can either converts or is christian though cannot be considered 'difficult' with HRE shenanigans.

My suggestions OFC dont take the HRE thing into account.

BYZ units are in Constantinople. Athens can win independence on a day 0 DoW. If you're lucky you might even be able to full annex BYZ, giving you a slightly more luck-dependent BYZ game.

 

[Pilot00]

BYZ units are in Constantinople. Athens can win independence on a day 0 DoW. If you're lucky you might even be able to full annex BYZ, giving you a slightly more luck-dependent BYZ game.

Need I say more?

 

[Camtheman]

French vassals aren't hard.

 

[Freudia]

Krakow is comparable to French minors or Pskov.

Can you even release Krakow on day 1? I thought it was Poland's capital, and capitals can't be released as vassals iirc.

 

[Clownie]

Can you even release Krakow on day 1? I thought it was Poland's capital, and capitals can't be released as vassals iirc.

Apparently not. You'd have to wait a couple years for the ADM to swap capital.

 

[unmerged(783218)]

French vassals aren't hard.

Between Bourbon, Champagne and Armagnac, French vassals will make you drunk.

 

[Ultrix Prime]

I'm looking for a challenge in Europe and there are a lot of challenges in them if you can imagine it.


My personal favorites are The Papal State and the Teutonic Order - but do not form Prussia - stay a true and faithful Bishopric to the end and do not deviate from God's one true Holy Roman faithl

The Papal State and TO are, for me anyway, great fun as I just really like, well, their colors and flags and their religious basis for their ideas and such.

Plus, their NIs aren't bad, but they're different (I gave Georgia a shot last night and I would call their ideas different and *bad* ). You can do a lot with their NIs and so in a way it can give the game a slightly different feel. I feel it's more interesting and challenging when you cannot solve all your alliance problems with royal marriages. As a religious state like one of these, managing your alliances matters more because there isn't going to be a stability drop due to attacking you because of a royal marriage. One wrong move and down goes the alliance, up goes the DoW and you're in the thick of it now!

So give them a try.

If you want a *real* challenge, play the Livonian Order, conquer the TO as well as Lithuania, Poland, western Russia and Scandanavia and show those heretics who is boss.

Personally, I've never been able to blob Livonian Order yet (admittedly I gave up after only 2 starts), but I think it is much more doable in 1.8. In 1.7 and before, you, of course, need the TO as your ally. But prior to 1.8 they *always* took war leadership and would use the war score for their benefit and totally ignore your claims altogether. 1.8 changes this, so LO may be possible to blob into a great beast without super human efforts or gamey tricks.

If you do the LO, save a stream and put it up. I'd love to see a good LO playthrough!

 

[Illianor123]

Saruhan. OPM releasable by the Ottomans. Surrounded by Ottomans. No ports. Upside is 5BT.

Yaroslavl is also hard.

Avignon?



I would also want to see how hard it is to do these (and the other ones people suggested) without HRE cheese.

 

[Camtheman]

What about Corfu? or Ragusa?

 

[Freudia]

What about Corfu? or Ragusa?

I did Ragusa in 1.5; was fairly easy. Corfu I imagine is very similar to a Naxos start, which is basically 'reset until Austria hates Venice, then support independence from Austria and some other nation (Hungary, Aragon) and get free lunch. Take Crete if you can. You're basically an inferior Byzantium start.'

 

[Dakilla TM]

Albania, Riga, Russian vassals, Ragusa, Navarre, French vassals, Knights, Cyprus, any OPM

 

[AndreasPhokas]

Salzburg looks tough although you do have an 8 BT province.

 

[Slym]

Galicia might be interesting but I don't think anyone who starts that close to america could be considered hard

 

[swm]

Theodoro is fun but really luck based. Crimea will DOW you in ~5-6 months. If Ottomans ally Crimea it's GG. If Crimea DoWs before you get alliances with the other Orthodox minors it's GG. If the Golden Horde attacks you after you take Crimea, it's GG.

I had a lot of fun flipping to Sunni, allying the OE and becoming a Superpower in the Middle East.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

In 1.7 and before, you, of course, need the TO as your ally. But prior to 1.8 they *always* took war leadership and would use the war score for their benefit and totally ignore your claims altogether. 1.8 changes this, so LO may be possible to blob into a great beast without super human efforts or gamey tricks.

LO? Nah. Riga FTW.



Though they play pretty similarly.

Also, Knights and Cyprus are NOT hard, unless you're putting yourself on time pressure to form Jerusalem (I find this to be mostly luck of when Ottos hit Mamluks and you capitalize + very careful unit movement). If you're just trying to become strong, Knights can ally Venice (who rivals Ottos) and do strait abuse, and use force convert on BYZ capitol or just go Orthodox after allying Venice.

Cyprus, despite its reputation, isn't that bad this patch either. You can always ally Poland (if you don't have a statesman, it might take 1 gold gift of 25), and if you get a statesman you can also ally Aragon. Unlike the Knights converting the capitol will be a real bear though. Both the Knights and Cyprus can build and afford over 20 galleys with trade ideas. Cyprus has to be opportunistic to hit the Ottomans that way, since you need to do it before Ottomans build 100 galleys or more.