Harbour of Copenhagen

[afb]

When you made the changes to trade centers a few patches back, lots were added around the world. However, copenhagen wasn't given one, even though it should clearly be a natural harbour, when you look at other provinces in the area that have gotten that.

I realize it is proably because of the Sound Toll, which already gives a massive boost to trade power. However, trade centers are more than that now, helping development and instituion spread. There is no good reason that Copenhagen shouldn't have access to this.

I would suggest one of two solutions:
1) Nerf the Sound Toll by 5 or 10 trade power and add a Natural Harbour or Entrepot instead.
2) Have one of the Danish missions spawn a Natural Harbour.

I would prefer solution 1 as I think it makes more sense to have it from the start and I think most of the missions are either too easy, too difficult or too unrelated.

 

[AirikrStrife]

When you made the changes to trade centers a few patches back, lots were added around the world. However, copenhagen wasn't given one, even though it should clearly be a natural harbour, when you look at other provinces in the area that have gotten that.

I realize it is proably because of the Sound Toll, which already gives a massive boost to trade power. However, trade centers are more than that now, helping development and instituion spread. There is no good reason that Copenhagen shouldn't have access to this.

I would suggest one of two solutions:
1) Nerf the Sound Toll by 5 or 10 trade power and add a Natural Harbour or Entrepot instead.
2) Have one of the Danish missions spawn a Natural Harbour.

I would prefer solution 1 as I think it makes more sense to have it from the start and I think most of the missions are either too easy, too difficult or too unrelated.

The sound toll was so massively lucrative to the danes that I would suggest keep it as it is and add the natural harbor, maybe buff the hansa a bit for balance?

 

[Entrone]

Agree with AirikrStrife, the Sound Toll should stay as such, or become even more meaningful. On the other hand, i think it should have a few events related to it.

Like if Denmark loses Malmö, they should get an event that halves it's effect, but does not remove it. If Denmark loses Kobenhavn (or both provinces), the modifier should disappear. But there could be a decision to revive it if the new ruler now owns both. This decision should be available until the Enlightment/Industrialization or so, and require high prestige and legitimacy.

Then an other event could be made for the diplomatic dissolution. It should also pop quite late (after 1800), that gives two possibilities:
-keep the toll, but have -1 diplomatic reputation and -40 relation with any countries who have more than 5% share of Lübeck (and Baltic?) trade.
-abolish the toll, gain +1 diplomatic reputation and +40 relation with those nations. Additionally get a large sum of money.
Why does it makes sense? The Sound Toll lost most of it's importance in the 19th century, as Sweden gained exemption, global trade shifted west, and Russia having developed ports on the White Sea.
In-game Lübeck node also loses most of it's value for late game, so gaining a large sum of money instantly in late game might be a good alternative.

Another idea, if Sweden conquers Malmö, they might get an event/mission, that gives a casus belli against Denmark to End the Sound Toll. If Sweden succeeds so, they should gain a Natural Harbor/an other similar modifier for+trade power. Despite the name, in this case the Denmark wouldn't lose the modifier, but Sweden would get one.

Meanwhile Copenhagen definately should have, should start with a Natural Harbor.

 

[Pbhuh]

Agree with AirikrStrife, the Sound Toll should stay as such, or become even more meaningful. On the other hand, i think it should have a few events related to it.

Like if Denmark loses Malmö, they should get an event that halves it's effect, but does not remove it. If Denmark loses Kobenhavn (or both provinces), the modifier should disappear. But there could be a decision to revive it if the new ruler now owns both. This decision should be available until the Enlightment/Industrialization or so, and require high prestige and legitimacy.

Then an other event could be made for the diplomatic dissolution. It should also pop quite late (after 1800), that gives two possibilities:
-keep the toll, but have -1 diplomatic reputation and -40 relation with any countries who have more than 5% share of Lübeck (and Baltic?) trade.
-abolish the toll, gain +1 diplomatic reputation and +40 relation with those nations. Additionally get a large sum of money.
Why does it makes sense? The Sound Toll lost most of it's importance in the 19th century, as Sweden gained exemption, global trade shifted west, and Russia having developed ports on the White Sea.
In-game Lübeck node also loses most of it's value for late game, so gaining a large sum of money instantly in late game might be a good alternative.

Another idea, if Sweden conquers Malmö, they might get an event/mission, that gives a casus belli against Denmark to End the Sound Toll. If Sweden succeeds so, they should gain a Natural Harbor/an other similar modifier for+trade power. Despite the name, in this case the Denmark wouldn't lose the modifier, but Sweden would get one.

Meanwhile Copenhagen definately should have, should start with a Natural Harbor.

One easy way to do it is to give both Malmo and Kopenhagen the sound toll modifier strenghtening if both are owned.

The problem with natural harbor is that it allows for upgrades, it would allow Kopenhagen to get a world port. That's because it's center of trade lvl 1.

 

[AirikrStrife]

The sound toll remained intact after sweden conquered Skåne, so no need to modify it like that.

It could be discarded in 19th century, but it's so late it makes itself useless, instead having a dynamic event triggered in certain conditions is an option.

I have wanted to expand upon the toll but never managed to come up with a solid solution, I'm in the mind of maybe making a new, new, scandinavia/baltic patch suggestion, so might try my hands at it again, I'd welcome the discussion if anyone is interested.

The problem with natural harbor is that it allows for upgrades, it would allow Kopenhagen to get a world port. That's because it's center of trade lvl 1.

I tihnk we are all aware of it, I was when I was suggesting keeping the sound toll intact, the sound toll was, massive, at some point it basically financed the entire kingdom of denmark. That's why I suggest some possible boost of the hansa to counter it.

Also as I said above, it'd be interesting to make the sound toll more dynamic, that could be the answer

 

[afb]

The problem with natural harbor is that it allows for upgrades, it would allow Kopenhagen to get a world port. That's because it's center of trade lvl 1.

There are 8 other provinces in that trade node that could already reach that level. Why is Copenhagen less likely to be that than Århus, Stralsund or Oslo? As it is, it means that Denmark's capital can't get development and and institution boosts. I'm not sure there are any major or medium powers in Europe with capitals that do not have trade centers. And historically, Copenhagen was a trade hub due to it's position controlling access to the Baltic Sea.