A couple of days ago I was looking at the Yngling family tree in 1066 and noticed a strange thing with Harald Hårdråde's children. At present he has five children, but Harald's marriages to their respective mothers are not consistent with the timing of their births. I've looked into this, and it seems that it would be quite difficult to accurately represent Harald's two marriages; the first was to a Rus' princess, Elisaveta Yaroslavna, and the second was to Tora Torbergsdatter, one of the Giskeætten. The problem (in gameplay terms) is that Harald was likely in a bigamous marriage with Tora, and this is made even more likely by the fact that she was never recognized as queen, whereas Elisaveta was. I think the best way to represent this would be to remove Tora as Harald's wife and make her children legitimized bastards -- this is fine because many Yngling kings were bastards and had otherwise legal and smooth successions. Harald probably married Elisaveta around 1043/4 whilst he was a mercenary in Russia, and Tora in 1048; the dates are more consistent for the latter marriage because it was after he'd returned to Norway and so things would have been better documented. It was very common for Scandinavian nobles to have several mistresses, and any children by them would often inherit without problems. It may also be that Harald got a special dispensation to marry Tora because Elisaveta was not a Catholic and so that marriage may not have been recognized by the Church. I don't know the reason, and I shan't pretend to.
It is not thought that Harald divorced either of his wives, and both were probably alive after his death at Stamford Bridge. One of them definitely traveled to Orkney with his daughter Maria, because she (Maria) supposedly died the same day as Harald. It's not certain whether the woman accompanying Maria was her mother or step-mother, though Tora is the more likely candidate as she was (so I've read) related to the rulers of Orkney.
This website lists Tora as a mistress, which would be consistent with my findings.
Anyway, let's fix the wives situation:
There's no reason for Elisaveta to be dead in 1050. Most sources say 1066/7.
Now the children:
Magnus should be a number of years younger than he currently is, and made a legitimized bastard.
Olav is the correct age, but he also needs to be a legitimized bastard.
Maria should be older, and certainly not already dead by January 1066. Traditionally, she died the same day as her father.
Ingegerd (ID 102535) is fine, though her second marriage should be added:
Finally...
I can find absolutely no mention of this person anywhere. In 1066 she is already married to Gudrød Crovan (ID 5788), yet this site (scroll up a bit) says that the identity of his wife is unknown, and does not state that he later remarried. Wikipedia does not mention Hårdråde having a fifth child, either.
There is room for doubt, however, so we can leave her in if we make a few adjustments:
If she did exist, I think her current name is unlikely. Ragnhild will do. I've also made her the oldest child for a couple of reasons -- she's not listed anywhere, which suggests if she did exist then she may have been born during Harald's years in exile, making her his firstborn. Also, she's married (erroneously I think, but it's not important) in 1066, and it would make sense for the eldest daughter to be betrothed first.
The problem is that Ragnhild would have been nearly fifty when she gave birth to Gudrød's eldest son; Lagmann (ID 7395) and Olaf (ID 220023) are born in 1094 and 1095 respectively. It also looks like the middle brother, Harald, is missing.
Personally I would just remove her and give Gudrød a lowborn wife (or no wife at all); it's also a bit dubious that their marriage is set to 1062 and yet they don't have any children for another 30+ years. That is incredibly unlikely, even if they married as children.
I'll leave that bit to Paradox, and it may be that she's listed in sources that I'm not privy to. If you want to keep her as Gudrød's wife then I'd suggest making his children older (we don't have dates for their births anyway) and adding her as their mother. Perhaps also add the third brother, Harald?
EDIT: Oh, and I think Olav should start as duke of Ostländer. His brother is duke of Trøndelag and Olav controls two of the three provinces of the duchy. It would also let him vote in Norway's elective monarchy, which he should be able to do.
EDIT2: Harold Godwinson's common-law marriage:
Give IDs 111, 115, 116, 127 & 129 the 'legit_bastard' trait.
Sources: see here, here and here.
It is not thought that Harald divorced either of his wives, and both were probably alive after his death at Stamford Bridge. One of them definitely traveled to Orkney with his daughter Maria, because she (Maria) supposedly died the same day as Harald. It's not certain whether the woman accompanying Maria was her mother or step-mother, though Tora is the more likely candidate as she was (so I've read) related to the rulers of Orkney.
This website lists Tora as a mistress, which would be consistent with my findings.
Anyway, let's fix the wives situation:
Code:
102531 = {
name="Harald" # 'Hårdråde'
dynasty=499
martial=7
diplomacy=7
intrigue=7
stewardship=5
religion="catholic"
culture="norwegian"
add_trait="just"
add_trait="zealous"
add_trait="envious"
add_trait="brave"
add_trait="skilled_tactician"
father=102500
mother=102501
1015.1.2={
birth="1015.1.2"
}
[COLOR="#FF0000"]1037.1.2={
add_spouse=102551
}[/COLOR]
10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]44[/COLOR].1.2={
add_spouse=633
}
1066.1.5={
add_claim = k_england
give_nickname = nick_haardraade
}
...
Code:
633 = {
name="Yelizaveta"
# AKA: Elizaveta
female = yes
dynasty=705
religion="orthodox"
culture="russian"
father=612
mother=100511
1025.1.2={
birth="1025.1.2"
}
10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]67[/COLOR].1.5={
death="10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]67[/COLOR].1.5"
}
}There's no reason for Elisaveta to be dead in 1050. Most sources say 1066/7.
Now the children:
Code:
102532 = {
name="Magnus"
dynasty=499
martial=4
diplomacy=8
intrigue=5
stewardship=6
religion="catholic"
culture="norwegian"
add_trait="greedy"
add_trait="honest"
add_trait="humble"
add_trait="ill"
[COLOR="#FF8C00"]add_trait="legit_bastard"[/COLOR]
add_trait="thrifty_clerk"
father=102531
mother=102551
104[COLOR="#FF8C00"]8[/COLOR].1.2={
birth="104[COLOR="#FF8C00"]8[/COLOR].1.2"
}
1069.4.28={
death="1069.4.28"
}
}Magnus should be a number of years younger than he currently is, and made a legitimized bastard.
Code:
102534 = {
name="Olav" # 'Kyrre'
dynasty=499
martial=8
diplomacy=7
intrigue=4
stewardship=6
religion="catholic"
culture="norwegian"
add_trait="charitable"
add_trait="kind"
add_trait="patient"
[COLOR="#FF8C00"]add_trait="legit_bastard"[/COLOR]
add_trait="fortune_builder"
father=102531
mother=102551
1050.1.1={
birth="1050.1.1"
}
1068.1.1={
add_spouse=101516
}
1093.1.1={
death="1093.1.1"
}
}Olav is the correct age, but he also needs to be a legitimized bastard.
Code:
102533 = {
name="Maria"
female = yes
dynasty=499
martial=8
diplomacy=5
intrigue=6
stewardship=8
religion="catholic"
culture="norwegian"
add_trait="thrifty_clerk"
father=102531
mother=633
10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]47[/COLOR].1.2={
birth="10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]47[/COLOR].1.2"
}
1066.[COLOR="#FF8C00"]9.26[/COLOR]={
death="1066.[COLOR="#FF8C00"]9.26[/COLOR]"
}
}Maria should be older, and certainly not already dead by January 1066. Traditionally, she died the same day as her father.
Ingegerd (ID 102535) is fine, though her second marriage should be added:
Code:
100550 = {
name="Filip"
dynasty=498
martial=5
diplomacy=5
intrigue=6
stewardship=5
religion="catholic"
culture="swedish"
add_trait="diligent"
add_trait="underhanded_rogue"
father=100523
1075.1.2={
birth="1075.1.2"
}
[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1096.1.1={
add_spouse=102535 # Ingegerd Haraldsdotter
}[/COLOR]
1118.6.6={
death="1118.6.6"
}
}Finally...
Code:
102536 = {
name="Ragnhild Maria"
# AKA: Ragnhild Maria
female = yes
dynasty=499
martial=4
diplomacy=8
intrigue=6
stewardship=4
religion="catholic"
culture="norwegian"
add_trait="lustful"
add_trait="just"
add_trait="craven"
add_trait="underhanded_rogue"
father=102531
mother=633
1050.1.4={
birth="1050.1.4"
}
1100.1.4={
death="1100.1.4"
}
}I can find absolutely no mention of this person anywhere. In 1066 she is already married to Gudrød Crovan (ID 5788), yet this site (scroll up a bit) says that the identity of his wife is unknown, and does not state that he later remarried. Wikipedia does not mention Hårdråde having a fifth child, either.
There is room for doubt, however, so we can leave her in if we make a few adjustments:
Code:
102536 = {
name="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]Ragnhild[/COLOR]"
# AKA: Ragnhild [COLOR="#FF0000"]Maria[/COLOR]
female = yes
dynasty=499
martial=4
diplomacy=8
intrigue=6
stewardship=4
religion="catholic"
culture="norwegian"
add_trait="lustful"
add_trait="just"
add_trait="craven"
add_trait="underhanded_rogue"
father=102531
mother=633
10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]45[/COLOR].1.4={
birth="10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]45[/COLOR].1.4"
}
1100.1.4={
death="1100.1.4"
}
}If she did exist, I think her current name is unlikely. Ragnhild will do. I've also made her the oldest child for a couple of reasons -- she's not listed anywhere, which suggests if she did exist then she may have been born during Harald's years in exile, making her his firstborn. Also, she's married (erroneously I think, but it's not important) in 1066, and it would make sense for the eldest daughter to be betrothed first.
The problem is that Ragnhild would have been nearly fifty when she gave birth to Gudrød's eldest son; Lagmann (ID 7395) and Olaf (ID 220023) are born in 1094 and 1095 respectively. It also looks like the middle brother, Harald, is missing.
Personally I would just remove her and give Gudrød a lowborn wife (or no wife at all); it's also a bit dubious that their marriage is set to 1062 and yet they don't have any children for another 30+ years. That is incredibly unlikely, even if they married as children.
I'll leave that bit to Paradox, and it may be that she's listed in sources that I'm not privy to. If you want to keep her as Gudrød's wife then I'd suggest making his children older (we don't have dates for their births anyway) and adding her as their mother. Perhaps also add the third brother, Harald?
EDIT: Oh, and I think Olav should start as duke of Ostländer. His brother is duke of Trøndelag and Olav controls two of the three provinces of the duchy. It would also let him vote in Norway's elective monarchy, which he should be able to do.
EDIT2: Harold Godwinson's common-law marriage:
Code:
122 = {
name="Harold" # Godwineson, king of England
dynasty=756
dna="medjejoencc"
properties="ae00e0"
martial=8
diplomacy=6
intrigue=5
stewardship=6
religion="catholic"
culture="saxon"
add_trait="arbitrary"
add_trait="proud"
add_trait="skilled_tactician"
father=120
mother=101534
1022.1.1={
birth="1022.1.1"
}
[COLOR="#FF0000"]1048.1.1={
add_spouse=131 #Ealdgyth 'Swanneck'
}
1064.1.1={
remove_spouse = 131
}[/COLOR]
1065.6.6={
add_spouse=123 #Ealdgyth of Mercia
}
...Give IDs 111, 115, 116, 127 & 129 the 'legit_bastard' trait.
Sources: see here, here and here.
Last edited:
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