Harald Hårdråde and his family

[Sleight of Hand]

A couple of days ago I was looking at the Yngling family tree in 1066 and noticed a strange thing with Harald Hårdråde's children. At present he has five children, but Harald's marriages to their respective mothers are not consistent with the timing of their births. I've looked into this, and it seems that it would be quite difficult to accurately represent Harald's two marriages; the first was to a Rus' princess, Elisaveta Yaroslavna, and the second was to Tora Torbergsdatter, one of the Giskeætten. The problem (in gameplay terms) is that Harald was likely in a bigamous marriage with Tora, and this is made even more likely by the fact that she was never recognized as queen, whereas Elisaveta was. I think the best way to represent this would be to remove Tora as Harald's wife and make her children legitimized bastards -- this is fine because many Yngling kings were bastards and had otherwise legal and smooth successions. Harald probably married Elisaveta around 1043/4 whilst he was a mercenary in Russia, and Tora in 1048; the dates are more consistent for the latter marriage because it was after he'd returned to Norway and so things would have been better documented. It was very common for Scandinavian nobles to have several mistresses, and any children by them would often inherit without problems. It may also be that Harald got a special dispensation to marry Tora because Elisaveta was not a Catholic and so that marriage may not have been recognized by the Church. I don't know the reason, and I shan't pretend to.

It is not thought that Harald divorced either of his wives, and both were probably alive after his death at Stamford Bridge. One of them definitely traveled to Orkney with his daughter Maria, because she (Maria) supposedly died the same day as Harald. It's not certain whether the woman accompanying Maria was her mother or step-mother, though Tora is the more likely candidate as she was (so I've read) related to the rulers of Orkney.

This website lists Tora as a mistress, which would be consistent with my findings.

Anyway, let's fix the wives situation:

102531 = {
	name="Harald" # 'Hårdråde'
	dynasty=499
	martial=7
	diplomacy=7
	intrigue=7
	stewardship=5
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norwegian"
	add_trait="just"
	add_trait="zealous"
	add_trait="envious"
	add_trait="brave"
	add_trait="skilled_tactician"
	father=102500
	mother=102501
	1015.1.2={
		birth="1015.1.2"
	}
	[COLOR="#FF0000"]1037.1.2={
		add_spouse=102551
	}[/COLOR]
	10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]44[/COLOR].1.2={
		add_spouse=633
	}
	1066.1.5={
		add_claim = k_england
		give_nickname = nick_haardraade
	}
	...

633 = {
	name="Yelizaveta"
	# AKA: Elizaveta
	female = yes
	dynasty=705
	religion="orthodox"
	culture="russian"
	father=612
	mother=100511
	1025.1.2={
		birth="1025.1.2"
	}
	10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]67[/COLOR].1.5={
		death="10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]67[/COLOR].1.5"
	}
}

There's no reason for Elisaveta to be dead in 1050. Most sources say 1066/7.

Now the children:

102532 = {
	name="Magnus"
	dynasty=499
	martial=4
	diplomacy=8
	intrigue=5
	stewardship=6
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norwegian"
	add_trait="greedy"
	add_trait="honest"
	add_trait="humble"
	add_trait="ill"
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]add_trait="legit_bastard"[/COLOR]
	add_trait="thrifty_clerk"
	father=102531
	mother=102551
	104[COLOR="#FF8C00"]8[/COLOR].1.2={
		birth="104[COLOR="#FF8C00"]8[/COLOR].1.2"
	}
	1069.4.28={
		death="1069.4.28"
	}
}

Magnus should be a number of years younger than he currently is, and made a legitimized bastard.

102534 = {
	name="Olav" # 'Kyrre'
	dynasty=499
	martial=8
	diplomacy=7
	intrigue=4
	stewardship=6
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norwegian"
	add_trait="charitable"
	add_trait="kind"
	add_trait="patient"
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]add_trait="legit_bastard"[/COLOR]
	add_trait="fortune_builder"
	father=102531
	mother=102551
	1050.1.1={
		birth="1050.1.1"
	}
	1068.1.1={
		add_spouse=101516
	}
	1093.1.1={
		death="1093.1.1"
	}
}

Olav is the correct age, but he also needs to be a legitimized bastard.

102533 = {
	name="Maria"
	female = yes
	dynasty=499
	martial=8
	diplomacy=5
	intrigue=6
	stewardship=8
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norwegian"
	add_trait="thrifty_clerk"
	father=102531
	mother=633
	10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]47[/COLOR].1.2={
		birth="10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]47[/COLOR].1.2"
	}
	1066.[COLOR="#FF8C00"]9.26[/COLOR]={
		death="1066.[COLOR="#FF8C00"]9.26[/COLOR]"
	}
}

Maria should be older, and certainly not already dead by January 1066. Traditionally, she died the same day as her father.

Ingegerd (ID 102535) is fine, though her second marriage should be added:

100550 = {
	name="Filip"
	dynasty=498
	martial=5
	diplomacy=5
	intrigue=6
	stewardship=5
	religion="catholic"
	culture="swedish"
	add_trait="diligent"
	add_trait="underhanded_rogue"
	father=100523
	
	1075.1.2={
		birth="1075.1.2"
	}
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1096.1.1={
		add_spouse=102535 # Ingegerd Haraldsdotter
	}[/COLOR]
	1118.6.6={
		death="1118.6.6"
	}
}

Finally...

102536 = {
	name="Ragnhild Maria"
	# AKA: Ragnhild Maria
	female = yes
	dynasty=499
	martial=4
	diplomacy=8
	intrigue=6
	stewardship=4
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norwegian"
	add_trait="lustful"
	add_trait="just"
	add_trait="craven"
	add_trait="underhanded_rogue"
	father=102531
	mother=633
	1050.1.4={
		birth="1050.1.4"
	}
	1100.1.4={
		death="1100.1.4"
	}
}

I can find absolutely no mention of this person anywhere. In 1066 she is already married to Gudrød Crovan (ID 5788), yet this site (scroll up a bit) says that the identity of his wife is unknown, and does not state that he later remarried. Wikipedia does not mention Hårdråde having a fifth child, either.

There is room for doubt, however, so we can leave her in if we make a few adjustments:

102536 = {
	name="[COLOR="#FF8C00"]Ragnhild[/COLOR]"
	# AKA: Ragnhild [COLOR="#FF0000"]Maria[/COLOR]
	female = yes
	dynasty=499
	martial=4
	diplomacy=8
	intrigue=6
	stewardship=4
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norwegian"
	add_trait="lustful"
	add_trait="just"
	add_trait="craven"
	add_trait="underhanded_rogue"
	father=102531
	mother=633
	10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]45[/COLOR].1.4={
		birth="10[COLOR="#FF8C00"]45[/COLOR].1.4"
	}
	1100.1.4={
		death="1100.1.4"
	}
}

If she did exist, I think her current name is unlikely. Ragnhild will do. I've also made her the oldest child for a couple of reasons -- she's not listed anywhere, which suggests if she did exist then she may have been born during Harald's years in exile, making her his firstborn. Also, she's married (erroneously I think, but it's not important) in 1066, and it would make sense for the eldest daughter to be betrothed first.

The problem is that Ragnhild would have been nearly fifty when she gave birth to Gudrød's eldest son; Lagmann (ID 7395) and Olaf (ID 220023) are born in 1094 and 1095 respectively. It also looks like the middle brother, Harald, is missing.

Personally I would just remove her and give Gudrød a lowborn wife (or no wife at all); it's also a bit dubious that their marriage is set to 1062 and yet they don't have any children for another 30+ years. That is incredibly unlikely, even if they married as children.

I'll leave that bit to Paradox, and it may be that she's listed in sources that I'm not privy to. If you want to keep her as Gudrød's wife then I'd suggest making his children older (we don't have dates for their births anyway) and adding her as their mother. Perhaps also add the third brother, Harald?

EDIT: Oh, and I think Olav should start as duke of Ostländer. His brother is duke of Trøndelag and Olav controls two of the three provinces of the duchy. It would also let him vote in Norway's elective monarchy, which he should be able to do.

EDIT2: Harold Godwinson's common-law marriage:

122 = {
	name="Harold" # Godwineson, king of England
	dynasty=756
	dna="medjejoencc" 
	properties="ae00e0"
	martial=8
	diplomacy=6
	intrigue=5
	stewardship=6
	religion="catholic"
	culture="saxon"
	add_trait="arbitrary"
	add_trait="proud"
	add_trait="skilled_tactician"
	father=120
	mother=101534
	1022.1.1={
		birth="1022.1.1"
	}
	[COLOR="#FF0000"]1048.1.1={
		add_spouse=131 #Ealdgyth 'Swanneck'
	}
	1064.1.1={
		remove_spouse = 131
	}[/COLOR]
	1065.6.6={
		add_spouse=123 #Ealdgyth of Mercia
	}
	...

Give IDs 111, 115, 116, 127 & 129 the 'legit_bastard' trait.

Sources: see here, here and here.

 

[Voy]

Good. Now I won't have to check them. Thanks.

 

[jordarkelf]

As for Gudrod Crovan, I am pretty sure his current death date is wrong, most sources I know of suggest he died by 1095. His sons also should be older than they are currently listed as (born in the 1080s, not 1090s). That would fit in with the marriage, making Ragnhild Maria in her 30s when she becomes a mother.

Wasn't there already a post on the entire Western Isles/Kingdom of the Isles setup? Can't find it now.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

As for Gudrod Crovan, I am pretty sure his current death date is wrong, most sources I know of suggest he died by 1095. His sons also should be older than they are currently listed as (born in the 1080s, not 1090s). That would fit in with the marriage, making Ragnhild Maria in her 30s when she becomes a mother.

That would be ideal, then.

 

[A_Dane]

As for Gudrod Crovan, I am pretty sure his current death date is wrong, most sources I know of suggest he died by 1095. His sons also should be older than they are currently listed as (born in the 1080s, not 1090s). That would fit in with the marriage, making Ragnhild Maria in her 30s when she becomes a mother.

Wasn't there already a post on the entire Western Isles/Kingdom of the Isles setup? Can't find it now.

I think they might have been born even earlier than the 1080's? If we accept Crovan dying in 1095 (seems completely correct), Lagmann would at the oldest be 15, which seems a bit young?

 

[jordarkelf]

Crovans:

I use these dates, some of it of course guesswork but it fits with the sources.
Gudrod:

5788 = {
	name="Gudrød"
	# AKA: Gudrod 'Mearanach'
	dynasty=556
	martial=7
	diplomacy=8
	intrigue=4
	stewardship=5
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norwegian"
	add_trait="underhanded_rogue"
	father=5793
	1049.1.2={
		birth="1049.1.2"
	}
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1062.1.2={
		add_spouse=102536
	}
	1095.1.1={
		death="1095.1.1"
	}[/COLOR]
}

(probably) oldest son Lagmann:

7395 = {
	name="Lagmann"
	dynasty=556
	martial=5
	diplomacy=5
	intrigue=5
	stewardship=4
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norwegian"
	father=5788
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]mother=102536 #probably
	1065.1.1={
		birth="1065.1.1"
	}[/COLOR]
	1110.1.1={
		death="1110.1.1"
	}
}

(probably) middle son Harald, blinded and killed (?) by Lagmann - he'd need an ID if he's represented in-game.

[COLOR="#FF8C00"]#### = {
	name="Harald"
	dynasty=556 #Crovan
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norwegian"
	father=5788
	mother=102536 #probably
	1075.1.1={ #all dates are estimates
		birth="1075.1.1"
	}
	1103.1.25={
		add_trait = "blinded" #by Lagmann
	}
	1103.2.1={
		death="1103.2.1"
	}
}[/COLOR]

(probably) youngest son Olaf:

220023 = {
	name="Olaf"
	# AKA: Olaf 'Raude' Gudrodsson
	dynasty=556
	martial=5
	diplomacy=5
	intrigue=5
	stewardship=4
	religion="catholic"
	culture="norwegian"
	father=5788
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]mother=102536 #probably
	1080.1.1={
		birth="1080.1.1"
	}[/COLOR]
	1135.1.1={
		add_spouse=220024
	}
	1153.1.1={
		death="1153.1.1"
	}
}

As for title ownership: probably Gudrod was succeeded by his oldest son Lagmann, until Norway took over direct rulership. When rule was restored to the Crovans it was Lagman who gained the rulership (and around this time Harald was blinded and probably died), and after his death Olaf took rule.
Gudrod also was the ruler of the Hebrides from earlier in the 1060s, I've set it to his father's death in October of that 1060.

d_western_isles:

[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1060.10.1={
	holder=5788 #Gudrød Crovan
}
1095.1.1={
	holder = 7395 #Lagmann Crovan

}[/COLOR]
1099.1.1={
	liege="k_norway"
	holder = 202511 #Magnus 'Barfot' of Norway
}
1103.1.25={
	holder = 7395 #Lagmann Crovan
}
1110.1.1={
	holder = 220023 #Olaf 'Raude' Gudrodsson Crovan
}
1153.1.1={
	holder = 220021 #Gudrod II Crovan
}

c_innse_gall:

[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1060.10.1={
	liege="d_western_isles"
	holder=5788 #Gudrød Crovan
}
1095.1.1={
	holder = 7395 #Lagmann Crovan
}[/COLOR]
1099.1.1={
	holder = 202511 #Magnus 'Barfot' of Norway
}
1103.1.25={
	holder = 7395 #Lagmann Crovan
}
1110.1.1={
	holder = 220023 #Olaf 'Raude' Gudrodsson Crovan
}
1153.1.1={
	holder = 220021 #Gudrod II
}

c_isle_of_man:

1066.1.1={
	holder=131524
}
1074.1.1={
	holder = 131526
}
1079.1.1={
	liege="d_western_isles"
}
1079.1.1={
	holder = 5788 #Gudrød Crovan
}
[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1095.1.1={
	holder = 7395 #Lagmann Crovan
}[/COLOR]
1099.1.1={
	holder = 202511 #Magnus 'Barfot' of Norway
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]liege="k_norway"[/COLOR]
}
1103.1.25={
	holder = 7395 #Lagmann Crovan
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]liege="d_western_isles"[/COLOR]
}
1110.1.1={
	holder = 220023 #Olaf 'Raude' Gudrodsson Crovan
}
1153.1.1={
	holder = 220021 #Gudrod II
}

c_carrick, also added proper liege k_scotland/d_galloway since the latter isn't created until later.

1066.1.1={
	liege="d_western_isles"
}
1066.1.1={
	holder=131526
}
1093.1.1={
	holder=5788 #Gudrød Crovan
}
[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1095.1.1={
	holder = 7395 #Lagmann Crovan
}[/COLOR]
1098.1.1={
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]liege="k_scotland"[/COLOR]
	holder = 203560
}
[COLOR="#FF8C00"]1120.1.1={
	liege="d_galloway"
}[/COLOR]

c_dublin, liege line is simply so it shows correctly on the selection screen:

950.1.1={
	holder=5790 # Olaf Cuaran
}
980.1.1={
	holder=131521 # Glúniairn
}
989.1.1={
	holder=1025 #Sihtric
}
1052.7.1={
	holder=924
}
1070.7.1={
	holder =83190 #Domnall son of Murchad of Leinster
}
1072.2.7={
	holder = 906 #Toirrdelbach Ua Briain of Munster
}
1086.7.14={
	holder = 920 #Donnchad son of Domnall Remar
}
1089.7.1={
	holder = 923 #Énna son of Diarmait
}
1092.7.1={
	holder = 5788 #Gofraid Meranach king of Mann
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]liege = "d_western_isles"[/COLOR]
}
1094.7.1={
	holder = 83250 #Domnall Ua Briain son of High King Muirchertach 
	[COLOR="#FF8C00"]liege = 0[/COLOR]
}

The vassals c_argyll/c_galloway need no changes in their ownership (unless

Of course proper representation of the Hebrides is impossible with it being only one province, we'd need at least two there to show both that the Crovans kept rule over the Outer Hebrides both during (probably) Magnus' rule, and later when the Somerleds took the duchy. But this will do with what we have.

 

[A_Dane]

Well, is there any evidence against them being born before 1080? (just asking, they just seem rather young otherwise)

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I'm fine with those changes, by the way. We should definitely add Harald also.

 

[jordarkelf]

The most convincing argument is Olaf's lifespan. People didn't generally get to 80 years old much. His date of death is pretty certain (the year at least). Combine that with claims he was the oldest son, and you don't have much leeway.
Of course given how bad the records from that time are it is quite possible Olaf was not the oldest but the youngest son, maybe even with another wife or mistress, and Lagmann the oldest son, so he might've been born in (e.g.) 1065 with Harald in the late 60s or early 70s.

I haven't found anything claiming Lagmann was the eldest son though so personally I wouldn't portray him as such.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I haven't found anything claiming Lagmann was the eldest son though so personally I wouldn't portray him as such.

Well this link (scroll up) states: 'The Chronicon Manniæ et Insularum names “Lagmannum, Haraldum et Olavum” as the three sons of “Godredus Crovan”, recording that Lagman succeeded his father and reigned seven years, before abdicating and leaving for Jerusalem where he died.'

 

[A_Dane]

yeah that's what I read as well..

Think I saw somewhere that it was possible he took over the ruling of the Hebrides already back in 1091 when his father conquerored dublin..

But that might just be Wikipedia info, can't remember exactly

Either way, they need to be made older that's for certain

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I agree, and even if we're sticking with the (likely ahistorical) marriage of Gudrod and Ragnhild, then we can't have them married for over thirty years before they have any children. It just doesn't make sense at all.

I'm all for jordarkelf's changes, or even making them older than that, as you suggest.

I'm not sure if Veld will have any input here, so we could wait for him to comment as he's probably worked on some of these characters.

 

[A_Dane]

I see your point Jordakelf, in regards to Olafs age - However, I havn't seen any mentioning of him being the eldest son of Godred Crovan, only as being a younger son.

His other son Lagmann (who appears to have been the eldest, and fought with the other brother Harald), seems to have died much, much earlier than him. If he was indeed the eldest, wouldn't it be a plausible assumption, to make him and Harald older, and Olaf a much younger son? there's no rule that all children are born in a short timespan after all.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Yes, I would make Lagmann the eldest son and then have him lose his titles to the next brother when he abdicates and goes to Jerusalem, at which point we could perhaps give him the celibate trait or something. I agree he ought to be the eldest, though, as I've not seen any evidence suggesting otherwise.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Updated the OP with an amendment on Harold Godwinson and Edith Swanneck.

 

[jordarkelf]

Nice find Sleight, that'd fit well with everything. I either overlooked or didn't find that, but it would seem to confirm Lagmann being eldest. Also clears up some confusion on title ownership.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Yeah, could you amend any title history as needed?

 

[jordarkelf]

Done.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Done.

Awesome. Great job buddy, this is a much better setup.

All I would add is that Olaf's name should be Olav, as that is the version Norwegian culture uses in CK II. It just means his regnal name will link up with future dukes named Olav (a common name) so it won't go from, say, Olaf I (him) to Olav IV (a successor).

Oh and Olav's 'mother=102536 #probably' line is not highlighted.

 

[A_Dane]

That seems like a nice setup Jordarkelf