Hansa in 2.0

[MattyG]

The Hanseatic League is a great component of the Interregnum world but I have always had a few reservations.

1. Novgorod. It does seem like a touch place for the hansa to have secured. I was wondering if we could drop the hansa connection there and give Novgorod province and CoT back to a Russian state. Maybe even a single-province Novgorod? In the 2.0 map, Novgorod is a really big province.

2. Florence. The map is differnet in 2.0 and Florence becomes appropriately inland. But I always found it strange that this distant Italian city would turn to the League. I realise that they have just won a decisive war against Brittany, Bavaria and others, but it still felt like a stretch. So here's my idea. First, they would start the game owning Siena, which is coastal and adjacent to Florence. The storyline being that the Sienese - at war with Genoa and an ally of Venice, had a large hanseatic presence. The seige of the city drew the league into the conflict and they managed to break the seige. The Genoese, unabale to defeat the League at sea or land accepted Hanseatic control over Siena at the war's close (the defeat of Venice). This naturally drew the ire of the Emperor and the burgeoning power of the league helped to precipitate the war which ends as the game starts with a handeatic victory. So, with the hansa already in Italy in 1419, the idea of Florence joining the League becomes more plausible. And the two provinces in Italy would compensate somewhat for the loss of Novgorod. A little.

 

[Avernite]

I think we need to re-think from a gameplay perspective too.

Novgorod is defendable. MA with Teutons or Finland, maybe conquering Narva, but you can get there.

No such thing for Italy, really. A long march through all of the empire, or a sailing around Cordoba at possible cost to ships, in any case, pretty tough.

Besides, why would the Italians turn to the Hanse? They were perfectly content turning to feudal powers or the Pope if they needed help against Venice, so why would they turn to the Hanse, a bunch of northern barbarians trading grain and wool, while they are competing in the market for Eastern riches?

 

[MattyG]

I think we need to re-think from a gameplay perspective too.

Novgorod is defendable. MA with Teutons or Finland, maybe conquering Narva, but you can get there.

No such thing for Italy, really. A long march through all of the empire, or a sailing around Cordoba at possible cost to ships, in any case, pretty tough.

Besides, why would the Italians turn to the Hanse? They were perfectly content turning to feudal powers or the Pope if they needed help against Venice, so why would they turn to the Hanse, a bunch of northern barbarians trading grain and wool, while they are competing in the market for Eastern riches?

Then I think hansa needs to get Estland too, or to just get Estland and have the CoT there.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

1. No arguments here.

2. Again, none here, especially if it's inland. Remember that the Hanseatic League in our game is really an abstraction of a sense of the 'reality' of them being purely a League of Cities. It is only later, that Hansa enforce their culture on those far-flung elements of their empire that they start to become a true state. And by this time, Florence is more likely NOT to be part of their empire anyway

Participation by Florence, Anglia, Nogorod and Bergenhus in the current version of the game is based on IRL examples of the spread of the IRL League. Someone in the Mediterranean will be targetted by the League. Siena then? Something Moorish?

 

[MattyG]

Something Moorish?

Now you're onto something.

I am looking for as many possible connections to Al-Andalus as possible. Al-Andalus is the 'soruce' of the Renaissance and we need to find and explore the connections between it and Christian Europe. I will post later on Catalan, but this one is another gem, I think. It's also another excellent reason why the Hansa begin to distance themselves from the Emperor, because as the arch-conservative, he essentially opposes growing ties between 'Europe' and Al-Andalus.

This could be the Hansa's link to orthodox or latin tech.

I wonder if perhaps we begin this even sooner.

Maybe there's no Porto??????? Hanseatic instead?????

 

[Avernite]

Maybe there's no Porto??????? Hanseatic instead?????

Lisboa and Porto make for excellent ideas on the west coast, maybe Catalunya in the east could be good too.

This would also allow a greater effect of the crusade, if it has some success. Basically, the Moors (if the Hansa does it correctly) have some ties left with the Hanse, but are cut off from the rest of the north.

Thus, if Al-Andalus falls, the CoT could move to the Hanseatic possesion, if it's still Hanse.

 

[unmerged(16159)]

Maybe there's no Porto??????? Hanseatic instead?????

niiiiiiice.

 

[loki1232]

But in these scenarios would hansa be cooperating with Cordoba? Like if hansa controls porto, it seems more likely that they will be fighting with Al-Andalus. I agree that florence doesn't work for hansa though.

So the way I see it any territory in the mediterranean should have possibilities for expansion. Thus i would suggest this (it's a lot, but they'll be losing novgorod):
1. Malta and Siena, two territories which were venecian but went hansa after the end of the war. This gives possibilities of expansion into florence. (perhaps give genoa some extra territory to compensate, like crete).
2. The balaeres. these islands will be the main way that cordoba and hansa trade.

So these territories open up conflict between genoa and hansa (oooh, what if genoa could do the detente with either hansa or sicily? and the detente with genoa would give mainland italy to genoa and the islands to hansa), and also create teh possibility of hansa dominating the mediterranean. If all goes well

 

[MattyG]

But in these scenarios would hansa be cooperating with Cordoba? Like if hansa controls porto, it seems more likely that they will be fighting with Al-Andalus. I agree that florence doesn't work for hansa though.

So the way I see it any territory in the mediterranean should have possibilities for expansion. Thus i would suggest this (it's a lot, but they'll be losing novgorod):
1. Malta and Siena, two territories which were venecian but went hansa after the end of the war. This gives possibilities of expansion into florence. (perhaps give genoa some extra territory to compensate, like crete).

That was the way I had it planned, and it works well from a story point of view, but it really is hard to defend in 1420, even for a player.

2. The balaeres. these islands will be the main way that cordoba and hansa trade.

The trick here is that there are a lot of claimants to those Islands: Al-Andalus, Tlemscen, Almujadids, Genoa and Sicily. And it is still a goodly distance away. BUT it does have defensibility. I like that aspect.

So these territories open up conflict between genoa and hansa (oooh, what if genoa could do the detente with either hansa or sicily? and the detente with genoa would give mainland italy to genoa and the islands to hansa), and also create teh possibility of hansa dominating the mediterranean. If all goes well

Tasty stuff, if complicated for the coding.

For me, the advantages of Porto are that it helps us build the more complex Iberia the game needs. The old model of Cordoba versus Christianty in a slugfest that Cordoba wins is pretty simplistic and dated. After 800 years there has to be more to it than that. We are bringing back Catalunya as part of this purpose. nyway, if the Hansa were in Porto they would have to have a good relationship with Al-Andalus. Or else they'd lose Porto, right? We could model a trade conflict with Portugal which led them to ally with Al-Andalus in the conflict that saw Portugal's demise in the years just preceding the game, and which added to the conflict between the Emperor and the League.

 

[Avernite]

For me, the advantages of Porto are that it helps us build the more complex Iberia the game needs. The old model of Cordoba versus Christianty in a slugfest that Cordoba wins is pretty simplistic and dated. After 800 years there has to be more to it than that. We are bringing back Catalunya as part of this purpose. nyway, if the Hansa were in Porto they would have to have a good relationship with Al-Andalus. Or else they'd lose Porto, right? We could model a trade conflict with Portugal which led them to ally with Al-Andalus in the conflict that saw Portugal's demise in the years just preceding the game, and which added to the conflict between the Emperor and the League.

But why would the German traders be interested in opposing the Emperor so directly?

I'd rather think the Hanse performed for Porto a role similar to the one Ireland has for Portugal, but a bit more succesfull and less antagonistic to Al-Andalus.

Basically, Portugal breaks apart through war, but Porto hasn't really been fought over yet, so the Hanse manages to establish some control over it as neither the Christians nor Al-Andalus despise them. Essentially, the Hanseatic solution de-escalates any conflict over the city, for a time.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Basically, Portugal breaks apart through war, but Porto hasn't really been fought over yet, so the Hanse manages to establish some control over it as neither the Christians nor Al-Andalus despise them. Essentially, the Hanseatic solution de-escalates any conflict over the city, for a time.

Possibly the city just elected to seek refuge with the Hansa during the time when Lisbon and Coimbra were falling to the Muslims.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Though I still raise objections on the crusade in Iberia. The Muslims had by now lived in Iberia 800 years, and the whole possibility of their fall and expulsion through a crusade (whether realistic or not, high possibility or not) is a great stretch. It took a consistant military effort, as well as a dual demographic push, to take over the peninsula, and even then, with huge sacrifice.

I dont like the crusade...

 

[MattyG]

Though I still raise objections on the crusade in Iberia. The Muslims had by now lived in Iberia 800 years, and the whole possibility of their fall and expulsion through a crusade (whether realistic or not, high possibility or not) is a great stretch. It took a consistant military effort, as well as a dual demographic push, to take over the peninsula, and even then, with huge sacrifice.

I dont like the crusade...

I know, but it isn't far fetched. There we a lot of crsuades and most of them in regions even further away and more difficult to fight in ...

 

[MattyG]

But why would the German traders be interested in opposing the Emperor so directly?

I'd rather think the Hanse performed for Porto a role similar to the one Ireland has for Portugal, but a bit more succesfull and less antagonistic to Al-Andalus.

Basically, Portugal breaks apart through war, but Porto hasn't really been fought over yet, so the Hanse manages to establish some control over it as neither the Christians nor Al-Andalus despise them. Essentially, the Hanseatic solution de-escalates any conflict over the city, for a time.

Bingo. Like it a lot.

 

[Incompetent]

But wait a minute, Porto isn't alone against the Moors, as they have a potential friend and protector in the form of Eire, who can also attempt to secure that corner of Iberia for Christendom whether or not Porto survives. So we don't need the Hansa turning up there to stir up some power games - in any case, I think Eire is a better bet militarily than the Hansa, as Eire is one of the few countries likely to get a lot of warships (as opposed to galleys) early on. I think the emergence of a Hanseatic interest in Iberia later on though (ie, after Eire has pretty much given up) is a more interesting idea.

As for the viability of a Hanseatic city in Tuscany, I have often actually seen AI Hansa go on a mini-conquering spree in Italy and become one of the region's major powers. So it can be done, especially if they're given a coastal foothold such as Pisa at the start.

@Calipah: It's true that Muslims have continuously ruled parts of Iberia for 800 years, and given the vitality and size of al-Andalus, it's unlikely the Andalusis would ever really be purged from the far south. But further north the history of Muslim vs Christian rule may be rather more patchy (the current story seems to be that al-Andalus has gained a lot of territory at the expense of the Christians in the years leading up to 1419), so there's some potential for a partial reconquista. Accordingly, maybe we should rethink which provinces start Andalusi and which start Muslim. Should the province culture and religion always coincide? In any case, more Iberian/Catholic provinces won't hit al-Andalus too hard because they get Iberian culture soon enough, and in any case al-Andalus is one of the strongest powers in Inter (assuming the incredibly over-ambitious crusade fizzles out - how seriously does the AI actually go at this?).

 

[Avernite]

But wait a minute, Porto isn't alone against the Moors, as they have a potential friend and protector in the form of Eire, who can also attempt to secure that corner of Iberia for Christendom whether or not Porto survives. So we don't need the Hansa turning up there to stir up some power games - in any case, I think Eire is a better bet militarily than the Hansa, as Eire is one of the few countries likely to get a lot of warships (as opposed to galleys) early on. I think the emergence of a Hanseatic interest in Iberia later on though (ie, after Eire has pretty much given up) is a more interesting idea.

As for the viability of a Hanseatic city in Tuscany, I have often actually seen AI Hansa go on a mini-conquering spree in Italy and become one of the region's major powers. So it can be done, especially if they're given a coastal foothold such as Pisa at the start.

The AI has no naval attrition, so yes they can easily hold Tuscany.

As to your idea, it indeed makes some sense. Portugal is heavily involved with Eire, from what the history tells us, so having Eire interfering in Porto is at least as likely as the Hanse doing it.

However, Eire is much more likely to get into conflict with Andalus over it, seeing as they harbour a lot of Portuguese refugees with resentment over their loss. Indeed, Al-Andalus has been on a large offensive for some time, so we could say Porto simply hasn't fallen YET, but I like the idea of it actually not being so in danger of falling at all.

 

[Incompetent]

However, Eire is much more likely to get into conflict with Andalus over it, seeing as they harbour a lot of Portuguese refugees with resentment over their loss. Indeed, Al-Andalus has been on a large offensive for some time, so we could say Porto simply hasn't fallen YET, but I like the idea of it actually not being so in danger of falling at all.

I see what you're getting at here. Unlike Eire, the Hansa could be a friendly or at least non-threatening presence on the peninsula from an Andalusi perspective. Still, I think al-Andalus would have to have some pretty major motivation to actually grant provinces to the Hansa rather than simply trading concessions. Perhaps Porto could be acquired by the Hansa some time after 1450 if the 'Portuguese refugees go to Eire' events haven't triggered by then (ie Porto is still ruled by Christians).

Other places the Hansa might show up:

Occitania
Dalmatia (possibly motivated by the Genoese threat)
northern Black Sea coast

 

[MattyG]

I see what you're getting at here. Unlike Eire, the Hansa could be a friendly or at least non-threatening presence on the peninsula from an Andalusi perspective. Still, I think al-Andalus would have to have some pretty major motivation to actually grant provinces to the Hansa rather than simply trading concessions. Perhaps Porto could be acquired by the Hansa some time after 1450 if the 'Portuguese refugees go to Eire' events haven't triggered by then (ie Porto is still ruled by Christians).

Other places the Hansa might show up:

Occitania
Dalmatia (possibly motivated by the Genoese threat)
northern Black Sea coast

These other options also suffer from the Long-Way-Off problem of Italy. As latter points for expansion, OK, but we need an interesting game start or near-game-start option.

I see what you mean about trading concession, but we can't model this very easily in EU2 (and TAs are a dead weight, not an advantage).

And maybe Calipah could weigh in here with any comments on how such an arrangement would have been feasible. Personally, given what Calipah has told me about the reality of Al-Andalus, it seems like a culture/polity that would have been quite encouraging of links with Christian Europe.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

These other options also suffer from the Long-Way-Off problem of Italy. As latter points for expansion, OK, but we need an interesting game start or near-game-start option.

I see what you mean about trading concession, but we can't model this very easily in EU2 (and TAs are a dead weight, not an advantage).

And maybe Calipah could weigh in here with any comments on how such an arrangement would have been feasible. Personally, given what Calipah has told me about the reality of Al-Andalus, it seems like a culture/polity that would have been quite encouraging of links with Christian Europe.

Well, there have been instances of Muslim rulers granting full districts to Merchants from Venice or Genoa, but cities?Not unless the said person was a vassal like Theodomir of Murcia. I dont think however, that the Muslim Kings of Al-Andalus would nessicarly be annoyed with the Merchants taking over a 'Christian' porto that isnt part of al-Andalus, especially if they are friendly, unlike the Christian statelets of the north.

Calipah: It's true that Muslims have continuously ruled parts of Iberia for 800 years, and given the vitality and size of al-Andalus, it's unlikely the Andalusis would ever really be purged from the far south. But further north the history of Muslim vs Christian rule may be rather more patchy (the current story seems to be that al-Andalus has gained a lot of territory at the expense of the Christians in the years leading up to 1419), so there's some potential for a partial reconquista. Accordingly, maybe we should rethink which provinces start Andalusi and which start Muslim. Should the province culture and religion always coincide? In any case, more Iberian/Catholic provinces won't hit al-Andalus too hard because they get Iberian culture soon enough, and in any case al-Andalus is one of the strongest powers in Inter (assuming the incredibly over-ambitious crusade fizzles out - how seriously does the AI actually go at this?).

A potential for a partial reconquista is feasible, but the game allows for a full reconquista, and thats what irks me.

As for culture/religion provinces, I believe your refering to the old map. What we did was simply turn regions that were once Muslim back like Zaragoza, Toledo, Castilla(Medina Selim) and left Barcelona and Lisbon to Christianity. The new map will allow for greater accomadation of views. There will definitly be more Christian provinces.

 

[MattyG]

Some questions/points

1. But what do you think we mean by reconquista? Perhaps we ought to stop using the term, as it is historically loaded.

2. I can play Finland and invade Iberia and take the whole damned lot if I'm good enough, crusade or no, right? So conquest itself is part of the game.

3. Many wars are not about conquest of the target country. Iraq is about oil security, for example. What the event cycle is ablout is as much a struggle between Pope and Emperor as anything to do with Al-Andalus itself, or Islam. BUT, I can see that we maybe don't need action_c a complete conquest of the peninsula to be Papal sanctioned.

Matty