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TheHostName

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Hmm not what im seeing in the screenshot here : https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/half-the-game-is-unplayable.1563014/post-28692278

I will try a larger number like 1000 or 10k just in case.
Could you try it with the first save from this run? I cant currently test this again where i am and not until Thursday.

It should have millions of pops working in different sizes and so on all over the world. Best save to test those numbers
 

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Could you try it with the first save from this run? I cant currently test this again where i am and not until Thursday.

It should have millions of pops working in different sizes and so on all over the world. Best save to test those numbers
Need to check my save again, i increased it to 10k but im still seeing lots of small pops in buildings.

1671949525805.png

Also this is whats slowing my game down. Looks like all those different buildings updating employment cause a huge performance drain, political movements are also surprisingly intensive. No idea what 'recalculate modifier nodes" is though. And update state pop need cache is also very intensive...

Edit : Hmm, how long does the pop merging happen? I dont think it happens monthly at least, maybe its yearly? Hard to test without knowing the interval.
 
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Kyoumen

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While it seems that it is not solely graphical issues, I do have to beat one of my personal dead horses:

Strategy games don’t need pretty graphics, and they *especially* don’t need dynamic graphics. No waves, no clouds, no birds, no trains, etc. If it moves, it better be because the player told it to. Same for meticulously rendered topography.

Like, you can say this, but they don't spend the money on it on a whim.

Also the amount of people I've seen comment that they can't deal with how EU2/Victoria/Crusader Kings looks, while anecdotal, still seems like graphics do matter for a goodly portion of people. On the flip side, I've seen lots of people enthuse about how great Imperator's map was.
 
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Like, you can say this, but they don't spend the money on it on a whim.

Also the amount of people I've seen comment that they can't deal with how EU2/Victoria/Crusader Kings looks, while anecdotal, still seems like graphics do matter for a goodly portion of people. On the flip side, I've seen lots of people enthuse about how great Imperator's map was.

So, for that apparently economically significant niche of gamers who make purchasing decisions on strategy games, of all genres, based on their graphics, AND who have machines that can handle said graphics the whole way through…

Do what I suggested: build the game with a low-res Civilization strategic view interface in mind, and then offer a pretty mode.

Otherwise, if they’re basing the decision to focus on such superfluous graphics on the basis that there actually are people that care about that, what they’re implicitly saying is “we will sacrifice the performance of this game for the players that want to complete the entire game, in order to appeal to this subset of potential customers.”
 
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So, for that apparently economically significant niche of gamers who make purchasing decisions on strategy games, of all genres, based on their graphics, AND who have machines that can handle said graphics the whole way through…

Do what I suggested: build the game with a low-res Civilization strategic view interface in mind, and then offer a pretty mode.

Otherwise, if they’re basing the decision to focus on such superfluous graphics on the basis that there actually are people that care about that, what they’re implicitly saying is “we will sacrifice the performance of this game for the players that want to complete the entire game, in order to appeal to this subset of potential customers.”
I mean yes. Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you about the need for graphics in a game like this. But from a business perspective, it seems like graphics bring lots of people in. And certainly in a game this long the quality of the early game is much more important when creating a new player base than the quality of the late game. Not saying this is my favorite outcome, but I understand the prioritization.

That said, I hope that it will change as the game ages. Creating a player base and keeping it long term are different things. Veteran players are more likely to play deep into the game and less likely to continue caring about graphics they’ve spent hours staring at. So hopefully performance, as well as AI, will become higher priorities as the game ages. This seems to have been the trend in other paradox games lately.
 
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I mean yes. Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you about the need for graphics in a game like this. But from a business perspective, it seems like graphics bring lots of people in. And certainly in a game this long the quality of the early game is much more important when creating a new player base than the quality of the late game. Not saying this is my favorite outcome, but I understand the prioritization.

That said, I hope that it will change as the game ages. Creating a player base and keeping it long term are different things. Veteran players are more likely to play deep into the game and less likely to continue caring about graphics they’ve spent hours staring at. So hopefully performance, as well as AI, will become higher priorities as the game ages. This seems to have been the trend in other paradox games lately.

Do we have anything more than anecdotes that the market of “grand strategy gamers who care about graphics” is large enough to reduce the experience for those that don’t?
 
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FleetingRain

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I don’t want a gorgeous map. Take, for example, EU4’s simple terrain mode. Or Civ 5’s and 6’s strategic view. I’m not a fan of those two games, but the strategic view was a masterstroke of game design right there.

Man, back when I had a weak computer I could *only* play Civ 5 in Strategic view. To this day I can't play Civ in the "normal" view because it looks terrible to me. I want my strategy game to look like a tabletop map.
 
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Man, back when I had a weak computer I could *only* play Civ 5 in Strategic view. To this day I can't play Civ in the "normal" view because it looks terrible to me. I want my strategy game to look like a tabletop map.

Yes, exactly! If these games are all map painters anyway, let them look like maps, no uncanny valley faux photo realistic amalgamations of various 3D models of various scales.

Look at this, and tell me its not beautiful and practical:
BFWyUl3_d.webp
 
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Yes, exactly! If these games are all map painters anyway, let them look like maps, no uncanny valley faux photo realistic amalgamations of various 3D models of various scales.

Look at this, and tell me its not beautiful and practical:
BFWyUl3_d.webp
ok that isn't beautiful (it may or may not be practical)
 
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inane rambling
"Well don't get me wrong, I understand not wanting to be a serf. But from a Lord perspective, it..."

You think you're mature for talking like this, but it just shows how little of an idea you have of Adult concepts like knowing the difference between a company and a friend.

Barbie is not your buddy, pal!
 
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"Well don't get me wrong, I understand not wanting to be a serf. But from a Lord perspective, it..."

You think you're mature for talking like this, but it just shows how little of an idea you have of Adult concepts like knowing the difference between a company and a friend.

Barbie is not your buddy, pal!
I’m deeply sorry I didn’t have enough sympathy for your oppression by a video game company.
 
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Look at this, and tell me its not beautiful and practical: [strategic view from a 2010 Civ game]
It's not beautiful nor practical - to streamers, reviewers, expos, and most importantly public on steam larger than a few thousand players. There are strategy games with solid gameplay and strategic-view-like graphics but they don't get any traction because it's one thing to imagine games in casual discussions, and it's another thing to actually vote with your wallet.
 
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I haven't experience any slow downs (crawling). I have a laptop with a 3080Ti card with 64 GB RAM.
 

DominusNovus

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It's not beautiful nor practical - to streamers, reviewers, expos, and most importantly public on steam larger than a few thousand players. There are strategy games with solid gameplay and strategic-view-like graphics but they don't get any traction because it's one thing to imagine games in casual discussions, and it's another thing to actually vote with your wallet.

And yet, strategic view is adored by Civ players. But who knows, maybe Civ is more niche and Victoria is more mainstream.
 
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Yes, exactly! If these games are all map painters anyway, let them look like maps, no uncanny valley faux photo realistic amalgamations of various 3D models of various scales.

Look at this, and tell me its not beautiful and practical:

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The Civ6 example is actually kind of interesting because it cleverly avoids the exact pitfall that Victoria fell into. Both Civilization 6 and Victoria III include two types of maps, without really biasing their UIs too hard towards either one. I think Civ6 is actually more biased in this way where thematically it all gets tied together more nicely in isometric mode, which is why strategic mode looks a bit wonky. Civ6's artistic style just happens to work out such that strategic mode ends up looking a bit off*. But both still independently work well as a cohesive whole for whoever may like either. The key however is that no matter which you like, both are available discretely from each other. Nobody is ever forced to use a map they dislike. It also means if performance is a concern you can cleanly pick strategic mode with no concern. I can 100% confirm this matters; my girlfriend's computer can barely handle Civ6 so the difference is very noticeable between the two types.

Victoria III also has two map types, with its living terrain map and its paper map. But unlike Civ6 it doesn't have a toggle between them. They're just both there at the same time. All you have to do is change your zoom. So you can't choose to stay in one theme or the other; you're saddled with both, so Vic's map looks bad half the time no matter which type you prefer and if performance is a concern you can't just choose to be in the faster one because there aren't two distinct modes; you're have to consciously not zoom in.

Honestly, I'd say just take a page out of Civ's book and make it a toggle. There's a lot of people who clearly do not care whatsoever about the living map. Personally, the most I want my map to be alive is to have dots on my paper map get bigger as my cities are more urbanized (analogously, imagine if in HoI4 you could see some cities grow from one victory point type to another) but I don't need trains or boats or whatever. There are also clearly people who do like it and have no issue with the performance implications of it and I don't have anything against their preferences. We're different people who like different things. So let's just stop forcing these two factions to mingle? Paradox can have a strongly performing paper map that's dead, and a living map whose performance is worse but has all the fancy graphics that they're playing around with.

*I want to be clear, I have no issue with stylization. I tend to like stylization more than not; my favorite character portraits of all Paradox games I've played are from HoI4, where they are specifically more stylized in that they look like paintings rather than the actual people. One of the biggest failures imo of Paradox's 3D models and the recent push to use them more is that they just end up looking like...well, bad lifelike models. A model that's supposed to look like the real thing has to be extremely high fidelity in order to not fall into the uncanny valley; if you're not willing to go the extra mile on that, then having good art that's clearly just art is way better. The barrier to looking acceptable to the eye is much lower because your brain doesn't try to flag it as a person, just as a picture. Besides being why I dislike the 3D models so much, this is also why I like the paper map so much. The styling of it is gorgeous.
 
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